B&M/WEIAND 174 Blower....Worth it???
 

Just curious if anyone has used one of these. Thinking of adding one to a 500hp 454. What would I honestly get out of it? 100hp? For $2500 brand new i think it is the easiest addition, but will it really make power?

You should gain right around 100hp running about 5# of boost. You will need a carb that flows at least 900cfm or so, or just go with a Dominator carb.

Well, I am already working with an 850 holley but if I neeed to upgrade then so be it. I am just trying to add a bit of power that fits under the hood and won't require going inside the engine!

So, you feel this is an ok bolt on?

I had twin 500 hp's with these blowers. Change the cam and you can make about 650hp. A few notes:

1. They make some serious noise, but some like it :)
2. Heat- Prob makes more heat than any other blower, enough to cause a 5mph loss on top end when fully warmed. After a short rest you get the power back, then you lose it again :) Add a chiller if possible, not needed
3. Upgrade to the snout type tensioner it it has the old style block mount one, otherwise you will blow through belts.
4.I ran 850 cfm Nickerson modified Holley, I would highly recomend this. He knows the setup, mine boat ran like an EFI and throttle response was electric....at all temps. Send your carb to him!
5. I highly recommend crossover cooling and the water temp sensor relocated to the front of the intake or the block. Relocating the stock thermo housing up and away causes inaccurate and eroneous readings on water temps. I lost a motor shortly after losing a sea pump impellar, the water temp never showed a rise, the oil temp did but it was too late!


If you are new to blowers you need to follow some "new" rules because things happen a lot faster with boost :)

Keep the distr very clean, detenation comes easier
Be very picky where you get your fuel, high octane is a must
Run marine ethanol remover
Never use last years fuel, run it near dry at the end of season

Good luck, I gained 12 mph with twins on a 36 foot boat!!!!

If you try it let us know what gains you get. I have been thinking about a power adder myself. No money for upgrades this year. Plus I have clearance issues with a blower, I would have to redesign the back seat. I have also did a little research on twin turbo.

You could/should send the carb to Nickerson and have it reworked and boost referenced.

As long as you have under about 9:0 compression, then it should work fine. You will need run 92-93 octane fuel.

Sounds like this may be more complicated than I had originally thought.

Baja- most people just throw them on and go, with no problems. I was posting my results because I had some problems, however I think you could go with a 4 lb pulley and not really have to worry.

Think of it as good, better, best. After you break enough stuff (like me) you tend to try to cover everything, however I have some friends that seem to be the luckiest boaters in the world...I go the extra mile and fail, they cob job and run for years!

I know a guy with a 174 on a 330hp cast motor running 6 lbs of boost for two years with no engien problems. I wouldn't run one day and he called me, his dist cap was the worst I have ever seen...put a new one on and good to go....for me it would have blew holes in the top of every piston!

Blowers are still the least expensive HP option for boats, hands down!

This is true for me as well. That is why I sound unsure now after some of the info I have been getting!!!

Real question is, what comp ratio are you at now, and are you running iron or aluminum heads? Keep in mind, total timing should be reduced, and you may have to upgrade your fuel system to 1/2 lines, 110GPH fuel pump. Fuel PSI gauges are a good idea also. Intercooler is nice, if not, i would run x-overs, no water stats, and run oil stats to keep oil temp up and controlled. Try to keep water temp cool, and oil temp warm enough to get rid of condensation.

I do not know compression ratio so that seems like it is going to be a bit of a problem......

If you have a 500HP 454 I would bet you are running 9.6+ comp. I would not bother with a 174. You will not be able to run enough boost to get the added HP you are after. In my opinion the 174 should sit on top a 454 with 7.5-8.0/1 Blower pistons with aluminum heads. If you are going to pay upwards of 2K for an intercooler just start with a 250 and put an intercooler under it. Start with a Bullet proof bottom good heads and a good exhaust then if you start with a 174 you have options. 250, 420, etc

Not rying to build a motor, infact, trying to stay far from that. I guess maybe I will spend the money on cosmetics....

You asked if it was worth it, I would have to say with the right set up yes.

-More speed, prob 10-14 mph on a boat your size
-More torque = much higher cruise speed using the same fuel
-Bang for buck, besides nitrous which sucks on a boat you can't do better

Of course there are precautions, however if you posted another thread asking what to watch for or changes that should be made to just a 500hp you would hear stuff that would keep you from sleeping at night!

I wouldn't be afraid to go that route again, just some basix rules

-Reduce timing a few degrees, you can always go back
-crossover cooling, you should have it anyway IMO, clean simple setup
-relocate temp sensor, very easy fix
-maintenance and cleaning of ignition system twice a year, takes all but an hour.

For added insurance ad a knock sensor and meter from summit for $150 if you like.


What do you have for speed now?

[QUOTE=4bus;3268808]You asked if it was worth it, I would have to say with the right set up yes.

-More speed, prob 10-14 mph on a boat your size
-More torque = much higher cruise speed using the same fuel
-Bang for buck, besides nitrous which sucks on a boat you can't do better

Of course there are precautions, however if you posted another thread asking what to watch for or changes that should be made to just a 500hp you would hear stuff that would keep you from sleeping at night!

I wouldn't be afraid to go that route again, just some basix rules

-Reduce timing a few degrees, you can always go back
-crossover cooling, you should have it anyway IMO, clean simple setup
-relocate temp sensor, very easy fix
-maintenance and cleaning of ignition system twice a year, takes all but an hour.

For added insurance ad a knock sensor and meter from summit for $150 if you like.


Ditto add the blower ,change the carb, re-prop and run 5 lbs boost all day long :drink::drink::drink:

174 = heat pump. an intercooler just increases boost and heat, not removing enough temp to make it worthwhile on the smaller blowers.

I had one on my old boat and loved it. no intercooler, nickerson carb, inconnel valves, 5lb boost. 10 mph increase on a single 25' boat. I didnt change fuel lines, but did add an electric "helper" fuel pump to supply the stock pump. then added boost and fuel press gauges just to keep an eye on everything.

Small blowers do turn fast, and create heat, but they work. Just look at the 525SC. Tons of guys ran them for many years, spinning the crap out of the little blower with small pullies making 7lbs. In my opinion, the key is good parts, good gas, and a good tune to keep it alive. Ive got a buddy making 825HP and 850FT lbs with a small 256 weiand on top of a 598CI. 3PSI, no intercooler. 3 seasons, no issues. Sure a 10-71 would make alot more power with added boost.

This guy could bolt on a 8-71, run 8-9PSI, but the question is, is the rest of his engine able to support 700HP? Crank, rods, head gaskets, etc? How about his drive? Usually a stock motor can handle 4-5psi. And bolting on a huge blower on a small motor setup to make only 3-4lbs, will take lots of HP to drive, and probably not make as much torque thruout the RPM range as the small blower.

If purchasing new, i'd spend a couple more bucks and go with a 250/256 blower. If you should grenede that 454 block, and end up going with a 502, the blower will still work on the bigger motor.

Well I see alot of differing opinions here. And there is alot to consider...I thought this would be a simple bolt on and go.

I appreciate everyone's input!

I am confused at the one reply that said an intercooler would create more heat.....i have built serveral buick grand nationals and the better the intercooler the more power and never was a heat issue. I know it's a car and turbo, just in my mind it is confiusing.

I have been in performance boats for about 10 yrs now, not one of which had stock power, but I am thinking I still have a lot to learn!

I think what he meant was the intercooler is a restriction. Usually you would lose about 1psi of boost by adding the intercooler. To get the boost back, you'd run a smaller pulley, which will bring the boost up again, but also some heat. However, I would think the intercooler setup at 4lbs, vs non intercooled at 5psi, would net around the same HP. Just the intercooled version should be safer. if that makes sense.

The intercooler with a larger blower seems like it would work better, because even though you lose some boost from the intercooler, you can run a smaller pulley, make decent boost, and not be overdriving the blower.

I like the idea of choosing a blower and blower ratio, in which you do not NEED to run a intercooler. Say you go with a 256 blower on your 454. And the compression, fuel supply, and timing allow you to run 6psi safely on 93 octane all day. Then, you add the intercooler to cool the charge. Your gauge will probably show 5psi then. Your making as much HP, if not slightly more than non-intercooled, but should be very reliable. Should your water feed to the intercooler get plugged up, or you get a lesser grade of fuel, its not gonna detonate itself to death.

Keep in mind i am no engine builder! We really need eddie young to chime in on this topic...Eddie???

Also, keep in mind that for a 174 blower, to make 5psi on a 454, will probably need to be driven somewhere around 2.2:1 ratio. Meaning that at 5000RPM, the blower will be turning say 11k rpm. With a 250 blower, you might only turn the blower around 6500rpm to make that 5psi....Larger rotors turning slower, means less heat. I believe the weiand 177 is rated for 12000RPM or something like that for max speed. Plus turning them that fast reduces their life span.

This is completely false.. An intercooler even on a small blower is a huge benefit. It creates a cooler denser charge and more power or a margin of safety if needed. The 174 is perfect for a mild 454. They work best with 8.5 to 9-1 comp and 4.5-5lbs boost. At 9-1 or higher an intercooler will help it live and you'll need to run less boost and good gas. About 80% of the engines I build are forced induction and I gaurantee once you've had boost you'll never go back! :drink:

a good set of heads and the right other stuff is more cost effective than the 174,and can create more power, IMO. I think merc only rated that motor at 490 hp overall, ,adding the intercooler didn't seem to do anything for the hp.The bigger 250 is a different story.

Don't mean to pick on you but this is also completely false.. There is no better bang for your buck then a blower. The heads, cam, valve train, and intake you would need to make 600hp with a 454 will cost considerably more then a 174 blower. If you're starting with an engine with too much compression then it might not be worth going the blower route.

What engine are you talking about???? A 525SC????? Its 525HP at the crank/490 at the prop. An innercooler and smaller pulley will give a 50hp gain on it and a cam change will gain another 25hp.

Also, a 454 that makes 600HP without a blower, is gonna be one radical motor having to spin 6500rpm to get 600HP. High compression, long duration, high lift cam, etc...

I'd take the mild build motor with the blower on top.

These small blowers work very well in marine engines with relatively high compression. I know because thats my combo. 9.5:1 compression 468cids with 177 blowers. The higher compression crutches up the small blowers and makes good power with low boost. Pushs my panther to the low to mid 90s which is really doing something. I do run aluminum heads which is key.

This is true, the last motor I built was a 496 stroker motor that mad a hair over 600...it did not last long. AFR heads, 10 :1 compression, custom cam with over .650 lift, can't remember exact duration but a 108 degree center line and had to spin it close to 6000 rpm to get to the power....It had a short life unfortunately...

Bluethunder, how many hp are your engines making and why is aluminum heads so beneficial?

I am pretty sure that besides the weight savings with aluminum they dissipate heat faster than iron so the engine will run cooler......

I never dynoed them but a good guess would be 650hp. The aluminum prevents detonation which in blower applications quickly causes holed pistons. This is as baja said due to the fact alum is a good conductor of heat. You'd need to be at least .5pt lower in compression with iron and that still might be pushing it a bit.

Where do you live baja226 and what are you shopping for?

Blue thunder, Tried to pm you but your box is full....

I fixed it baja....

PM sent

blowers
 

Yeah, I went that route for a few years and I'm going back to stock. I have 2 just totally redone B&M 250 blowers with snouts, belts, intakes etc... If interested let me know. They have about 5 hrs use on both of them since I removed them from my hp500 bulldogs. I was able to get around 650hp and they were fantastic but the hassle of high octane fuel was a Pain in the Ass. So, back to stock for me and 89 octane. Can send pictures of them on engines and have all receipts of recent rebuilds. They are polished. Speed

I might be interested, what would you want for one of them?

And just curious, what is the hassle of 93 octane? It is still pump gas....

It has always been my understanding and experience that aluminum heads are good for an extra pound of boost since they dont absorb heat like cast iron. I have a 525SC clone which is a 454 365HP with a 177 weiand, V6 Module, no thermostat, Inconnel and SS exhaust, roller rockers, upgraded fuel pump, Nickerson 850 Holley, fuel guage and boost guage. I run 4.5lbs of boost at never lower than 4,900' elevation. From the research I have done I Assume I am running 470-490 PSHP. Aluminum heads should get me 1 lb of boost safely (20PSP) add to this a 731 Crane Roller Cam another (40-50PSHP) add to this an intercooler another (40-50PSHP) this I think would put me around 575 PSHP. If I had the same stock 454 Mag today (not back in 89 when this clone was built) I would do the same except add a cross over, MSD ignition, aluminum heads, Cam and a 250 with intercooler and I think I would be running closer to 700PSHP at 5lbs of boost with twin carbs. Bottom line more HP is exponetially More Coin.

I think you are 100% on target. I fully agree. I have been running a similiar setup. 461CI, 8.5:1, custom hyd roller cam, alum dart heads, 177 weiands, msd ign, 110GPH mech pump, 5psi boost. Rods, mains, and heads studded with arp fasteners. Great setup. Pushed my old 38 straight bottom fountain to 80mph...

Besides Whipple, who sells marine kits for SBC?

I think you can run an automotive blower just put a marine carb on top of it. My motor was built in 88 or 89 and I don't think weiand made a marine specific blower back then.