Problems with Starter
 

Did a search and found this link that is pretty much the same issue that I am having.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/d...r-problem.html

I had motor rebuilt couple months ago (502mag). Good time to have the starter and alternator rebuilt although I had no problems with either one.

Installed same starter, same bolts (GM gear reduction starter) only things different where new silenoid, bendix
and other new interior parts.

First thing I noticed when starting the first time was it turned over slow. Made sure batteries up to charge and they where. Re-checked connections. Made sure I sanded new paint off starter where bolted to block.

Now it turns over fine. Started it many times in the shop. No problems.

Went to the lake to back it off trailer. Turned the key, nothing happened. Fooled with neutral switch/shifter to make sure in neutral, nothing. After 5-6 times turning the key the starter engaged and was grinding. Did it a couple more times and it quit grinding and started. Started fine the rest of the day. Next time went to the lake it was intermittent doing it again.
Then it went to only grinding evertime.
Pulled starter found cracked housing.
Back to rebuilder and replaced broken parts (housing, Bendix)

Reinstalled worked fine in shop.

Went to the lake and worked fine till time to come back to marina. It engaged and grinded again. Tried a couple times again and then respun.

I removed it again and broke another housing.

I double checked the bolts where extra tight when putting in second time. The bolts are the 3/8s with neralled shank.

My only thinking is the starter is moving after couple uses. But I am using the same components as before the problem.

Any other ideas?

check starter solinoid, sounds like problem i had. replaced it now its starts fine

bet its the slave solenoid,,,,,common on marine engines

make sure the bolts are not bottiming out,ad a washer on both bolts,hope this helps.

Ok, update from this wkend.

Had starter rebuilt again. New bendix, silenoid, new housing. Went to GM and purchased new bolts. Ground 3/16 of inch off them.
Installed started and crancked bolts as tight as possible.

Started fine on trailer. Went to lake. Started it dozen times before leaving the landing.
Went on 15min cruise to beach. 2hrs later went to start it and this is what happened.
Turned the key. Nothing. Double checked shifter in neutral. Turned key again and there was a slight hesitation and then the starter engaged and started into grinding.
Turned key off before damaging anything. Turned motor with breaker bar quarter turn. Tried again. Same thing.
I then loosened the starter bolts, shook the starter alittle and tightened the bolts again.
Turned the key and it started right up. Turned it off and started up again.
Cruised back to landing and loaded onto trailer.

Anymore ideas?

Another idea I was thinking of is I have had a starter turn over slow and then speed up when engine is warm and or when the timing is advanced to far.
Timing is set at 34 degrees. The other motor is also set at 34 degrees with no problems.
It almost acts like the motor spins over hard when it grinds and the starter has enough torque to spin faster than the motor turns and eventually breaks the housing.

Any ideas on this one?

did u tru adding a shim between the starter&block?

I have not added shims yet. Talked with a few different boat mechanics last week and one of them suggested shimming. Two others that have been mechanics for 20yrs say you don't need to shim these.
What gets me is if it needs to be shimmed I would think it would bind everytime.
I think I may consider this.

Sounds like a ground problem to me. When u loosened starter and tightened back up and she was good. Run a ground wire to check from bat to starter. Good luck I feel for u I have been in starter Hell too!!! Hahaha sucks

Skydog

I went through this exactly a few years ago on my port side 500hp, in fact I ended up taking teeth out of my flywheel ring.

I don't know how you can put a shim in correctly with the engine in the boat, unless you guess. I lifted the port engine high enough to remove the starter, bell housing and flywheel. Changed ring gear, removed inspection plate from bell housing, then replaced starter and used a shim kit that had 4 different shim sizes. After trial and error shim #3 was the ticket. Never had a problem again.

I sold those engines after a re-power. The new owner replaced the starters just "because". He had the same problem, he never saw the shim when he removed the old starters. He replaced the shim and no issues :grinser010:

BTW, only use OEM GM bolts!

4bus, you say you pulled motor. How did you come up with the #3 shim working.
Did you have to pull motor each time you tried the different shims?
Or were you lucky on the first try?

How did you know when you had the right one installed?

It can be done with a video scoop, hard but can be done.

I am not sure what this means. I have been able to R&R the starter without removing the engine.

Sorry I mean u can set backlash and depth right with out pulling motor with a bore video camera.

ok i just went throw the same thing you are !! i put a low gear starter no good so i got a brand new one the old stlye. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-S...item53e9599711 then after that it was my timing so i got a starter box from msd . been working great . this lets you start your motor at 10degrees after the rpm go past 800rpm if you got it on 34degees . i love it . i have 718hp so that help me good luck ya i did not use any shims

Mount the starter, pull the gear out to contact the ring gear and check the gear mesh. You should have just a little bit of space between the starter gear and the flywheel gear, about the thickness of a business card. Too little and you will grind and break off teeth, too much and it will add drag, over work the starter.

Was not lucky, it was the third shim I had tried out of the pack of 4.

Or you can go this route, keep buying starters until you get lucky and find one that happened to be machined to match your engine :eek:

I have never seen a shim on the stock starter, however I have seen grinding marks on the block and the starter mating surface which leads me to believe that someone at the factory matched the surfaces for proper gear mesh. Don;t be afraid of the shims, they make them for a reason.

are you shore your timming is ok?????? i would put the timing at 10 degrees at a idle then try that for a day and see if that works after you but a new starter. i did that changing shims on mine and no shims needed. it was my timing to mush !!:drink:

I will be out this weekend with it again. I ran a ground cable from the battery to the starter bolt. Of course on the trailer it starts fine again.
I want to see if this makes any difference in the motor turning over slower when the starter does decide to act up.

When I worked for ford mo co they started buying starters,alt,etc from junk yards & remanufacturing them if GM was doing the same thing trueing mounting surfaces could cause problems too. Certified trans made us flatten the belhousing surface on every trans that left that plant & it caused a few starter issues on fords cause the starter mounts to the belhousing, just a thought

I was out again this weekend. After installing ground cable to starter I still have the same problem. I am 100% sure it is the timing causing my problem.
Started fine when unloading off the trailer. 10 min ride to the beach. Shut it off. Tried to restart it. The starter engaged/motor started to turn slow and then I new it was just going to start grinding.

Couple hrs later I loosened starter and re-tightened it. An hr later went to start and it turned over slow again.

I loosened up the distributor and retarded the timing slightly. It turned over fine and started.
It started fine half a dozen times with the timing turned down.

bajabob had a solution for this, but I am wondering if I was to get a brand new started, not rebuild, would this possibly work.
I am thinking that my rebuilt starter may be alittle weak even though some components have been replaced.

http://stores.ebay.com/DB-Electrical...=p4634.c0.m322 call this place you get a brand new starter whole sale i did works great. msd has what you want starterbox mine work great easy to hook up

I feel your pain is all it takes is one buck and off with the nose.
this one made it three weeks

Are you certain your solenoids are de-energizing or being de-energized, and opening the circuit?

Me or him lol me it never started ,,,timing locked at 32 cold start and it bucked (632 tall deck 10;1) the little stock starters just dont hold up,the CSI on the starboard is holding up,knok on wood.
Getting a tilton super for the port in the morning

Look at the starter bolts again, a bolt that is too long will cause this problem.

bajabob had a solution for this, but I am wondering if I was to get a brand new started, not rebuild, would this possibly work.
I am thinking that my rebuilt starter may be alittle weak even though some components have been replaced.[/QUOTE]

I have also problem with one 454, loose starting new solenoid.
I replace whole starter, no starter problems anymoore.

buy new one and is failure still go on, you can be sure the
problem is somewhere else..

Talked with a couple mechanics this week.
Stated: Mercruiser does not recommend running new motor timing more than 8 degrees at idle (28-30TTDC) until the motor loosens up some (approx. 20hrs depending how hard you break it in).

When the motor is cold it will start fine, but once it heats up to running temps, everything expands (bearings, rings etc.)
This does work for me so I will run it here for awhile and turn it back up in the future.
Or I can by a new starter that might work or it might not.

What is your initial timing set at ?
Do you still have the Thunderbolt Dist or do you have something else installed ?

There are a couple of things that will do that to the drive end housing.
One, kick back against timing
Two, incorrect drive gear to flywheel tooth depth ( shimming)
Three, too long a bolt ( loose starter moves)
Four, wrong housing ( Imperial 3/8 holes and 10mm bolts)

If you are not running the timing locked at full advance, I suspect your dealing with issue number two.

When everything heats up, particularilty after a hot soak, the teeth grow, the housing grows, the ring gear grows and IF you did have any clearance on a cold motor, it is now gone and the flywheel will wipe out drive end housings one after the other.

The gears crush together with no space between the teeth. This causes hard engagement ( grind when key turned) and once the engine fires, the initial force of the flywheel against the starter drive literally pushes the drive sideways away from the flywheel and breaks the drive end housing.

Use liquid paper to paint the drive teeth completely. Install the starter using one shim. Crank the motor a few times and then pull the starter and inspect the wera pattern on the drive. If the liquid paper has been removed right down to the bottom of the teeth, add another shim and retest.

For my deal I put a tilton super starter on and prob solved works great.

Problem Solved.

Water was leaking into the exhaust manifold from the riser gasket causing water to get into cylinder 5 causing it to hydro lock. This would cause the starter to jam, grind and break.
Fixed the gasket and now it turns over every time. Fortunately I did not damage any internal parts.

Buddy of mine told me had this happen on a motor he had.