454 initial timing questons
02-25-2022, 04:27 PM
#81
Registered
02-25-2022, 05:33 PM
#82
"Internet Randoms"
All of us that have tried to help you have:
1) Have at least assembled and tuned our own engines
2) Built engines for others
3) Own Machine shops
4) All have boat motors that RUN.
You come on here with
"You got burned by seller" Lack of knowledge by you
1st engine builder burned you Lack of your ability
2nd builder Knows his stuff but cannot
a) set timing
b) adjust carb
c) diagnose engine failure
and you come on here asking advice and call us "internet randoms"
All of us that have tried to help you have:
1) Have at least assembled and tuned our own engines
2) Built engines for others
3) Own Machine shops
4) All have boat motors that RUN.
You come on here with
"You got burned by seller" Lack of knowledge by you
1st engine builder burned you Lack of your ability
2nd builder Knows his stuff but cannot
a) set timing
b) adjust carb
c) diagnose engine failure
and you come on here asking advice and call us "internet randoms"
02-25-2022, 05:45 PM
#83
"Internet Randoms"
All of us that have tried to help you have:
1) Have at least assembled and tuned our own engines
2) Built engines for others
3) Own Machine shops
4) All have boat motors that RUN.
You come on here with
"You got burned by seller" Lack of knowledge by you
1st engine builder burned you Lack of your ability
2nd builder Knows his stuff but cannot
a) set timing
b) adjust carb
c) diagnose engine failure
and you come on here asking advice and call us "internet randoms"
All of us that have tried to help you have:
1) Have at least assembled and tuned our own engines
2) Built engines for others
3) Own Machine shops
4) All have boat motors that RUN.
You come on here with
"You got burned by seller" Lack of knowledge by you
1st engine builder burned you Lack of your ability
2nd builder Knows his stuff but cannot
a) set timing
b) adjust carb
c) diagnose engine failure
and you come on here asking advice and call us "internet randoms"
There was no 1st engine builder that burned me. It was a bad mechanic and I own that as I chose him even though it was based on a good recommendation from a business associate. Needless to say he won't be getting business from me anymore.
As for this mechanic, yes, mistakes have been made. It happens. He has owned them and taken responsibility.
I have no beef with you guys but when your posts go from advice on things to try to chastising the build of the motor it is completely unproductive. What's done is done.
02-25-2022, 05:54 PM
#84
Registered
Are you getting back to it this weekend? Anxious to hear end of this story.
02-25-2022, 06:07 PM
#85
I don't think so. I haven't messaged mechanic to see if they made any progress today or not. I'm in Tampa and it's been 80s all week, ramps are gonna be insane all weekend so I don't even want to try to put it in the water anywhere until Monday. Ill be sure to keep the thread posted. One of the challenges when you go searching the internet for people that have had similar problems is when they get them resolved they rarely remember to report back on what it was!!!
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articfriends (02-26-2022)
02-25-2022, 06:37 PM
#86
Registered
80’s…….get out! Freezing rain here this morning. (Indiana)
02-25-2022, 06:44 PM
#87
Haha. You need to book one of my Airbnb properties and get away from that ****!
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis4
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis3
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis2
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis1
If these other know it alls played nice in the sandbox I'd invite them down for a free stay in exchange for fixing my boat!
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis4
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis3
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis2
Www.airbnb.com/h/tampaoasis1
If these other know it alls played nice in the sandbox I'd invite them down for a free stay in exchange for fixing my boat!
The following users liked this post:
articfriends (02-26-2022)
02-26-2022, 06:56 AM
#88
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
iTrader: (1)
I don't think so. I haven't messaged mechanic to see if they made any progress today or not. I'm in Tampa and it's been 80s all week, ramps are gonna be insane all weekend so I don't even want to try to put it in the water anywhere until Monday. Ill be sure to keep the thread posted. One of the challenges when you go searching the internet for people that have had similar problems is when they get them resolved they rarely remember to report back on what it was!!!
1. inspect for loose, cracked hoses, missing vacuum port plugs,
2. check throttle travel for wide open operation and that it returns to closed with no tension on cable
3.start/ warm up motor
4. check for vacuum leaks, fuel leaks
5. set initial timing
6. set idle using idle stop near your target idle
7. Set and balance idle mixture screws using a vacuum gauge, ie, its warmed up, you turn them 1/4, 1/8 at a time and see if vacuum/idle goes up or down . as it runs better, lower idle back towards target if it starts picking up rpm keep turning them in or out until its no longer gaining vacuum or rpms, then turn them back 1/4 turn if 2 corner mixture, 1/8 turn richer if 4 corner mixture
8. listen for misses at idle or when you rev it up, its very common to see a cracked spark plug on boats that been worked on as some manifolds are very close to plugs, doesn't hurt to pull every plug and just look at condition, have spares in your hands before you do so you don't have to drop everything your doing to go get them
9. IF I was tuning it, before doing wot, cruising test, I would install a 02 sensor and a temporary fuel pressure gauge. Lets say there is some restriction, pumps weak, lines pinched, whatever, if it cant hold within 1 psi of idle fuel pressure at wot, there's a problem. You can install a 02 sensor in a riser, not a easy job but pulling the motor back out after it detonates is a harder job
10. here is a link to the 02 bung that fits water cooled stock manifolds: https://howellefi.com/product/adapto...or-marine-use/
all this is assuming your rotor in distributor is tight, dist caps new or like new with no signs of cross arching, corrosion, your wires are new and work, not burned on a manifold or a boots pulled part way off where spark has to jump inside, etc
11. once its warmed up and all this is done, I would also tell you to use a set back timing light and rev it up and look at total timing, not a bad idea to look at harmonic balancer outer ring and rubber insulator, if swelled up and bulging, theres a chance it has spun outer ring and your timing numbers are incorrect , the time to check that its correct was when heads were off, put motor on tdc with dial indicator, roll .050 down in each direction then average the tdc spot center and look at timing mark vs tab.
lots of other stuff to check but this is what comes to mind
lets revisit your carb: your running some kinda edelbrock carb? I personally hate them things but regardless the typical calibration of most out of box carbs is a little lean for marine applications, I often need to go with bigger jets (or in your case smaller metering rods)to get"safe " afrs.
Safe afrs: your compression is at least one point too high for the cam you have and even marginal as far as detonation on premium, at 10-1 + points of compression with iron heads, the only thing thats going to make this live when torque loaded at wot is a slightly rich afr and conservative timing. we run boost on premium in boats without blowing up by tuning into mid 11's at wot, cools cylinder with the extra fuel. I invested in 10 02 sensor for my dyno, engines with intakes like yours will have a AFR delta of as much as 3 points, ie, richest cylinder may be 11.0-1, leanest may be 14-1 or higher. Thats the cylinder that will turn plug white and break rings lands, melt the top, whatever at wot with what you would think is a normal tune. You dont have the luxury of seeing which cylinder/ cylinders this is now since its in the boat but as I mentioned earlier at one point I dynoed a 502 with similar intake and #3 cylinder was quite lean. So my point is a tailpipe reading of 12.5/13-1 will almost guarantee your 'leanest" cylinder will be too hot combined with your high cylinder pressures from small cam/high compression .
IF I was tuning this less than ideal combination, I would tune rich at wot. Lets say you skip the 02 deal, run it at wot briefly, see your wot rpms, change to 10% smaller high speed needle(makes it 10% richer) run it at wot AGAIN, if it pulls the same rpms, your at least still in the range. Since we're concerned with possible detonation, I would tune richer and richer until it loses rpm, at that point, you've went too far and go back a little. I would tell you to try to color new plugs but unleaded gas doesn't color real well and if you dont have experience with it, you'd prob be left guessing at that point, Smitty AKA- a "internet random", LOL
Last edited by articfriends; 02-26-2022 at 07:36 AM.
The following 3 users liked this post by articfriends:
02-26-2022, 07:42 AM
#89
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
iTrader: (1)
And some of the banter is not directly aimed at you. Years ago "vortec pro" came on here bragging up his 680 or 750 hp, whatever peanut port headed 454 that had a cam with 30/40 degrees more duration than any inboard boat could ever use, a peak rpm that was irrelevant to a pleasure boating application and a hundred plus hours of porting on the worst heads gm ever made for a bbc to get there, proceeded to debate his skills and build, hence many people that roll their eyes at the mention of peanut port heads on a performance build, Smitty AKA a "internet random"
02-26-2022, 07:43 AM
#90
I can empathize with your current dilemma and mechanics lack of carbed experience, I have ran into this at my shop quite a few times (we do a mix of stuff including hot rod cars, trucks, dynoing, engine building, transmissions). Im 55 y/o, my son who works for me is 34 years old, he is very skilled and very good with modern vehicles. I trained him and I sent him to school. Thing is, when something shows up that you CANT plug a computer into , his eyes glaze over and he says this is a bunch of junk and even though I have taught him how to tune the stuff he throws his hands up in the air. Then your next problem is even some of the older guys who actually worked on carbed stuff never learned how to properly tune and worked on more stock stuff than modded. so its been listed already but I will list it again, steps to getting tune right.
1. inspect for loose, cracked hoses, missing vacuum port plugs,
2. check throttle travel for wide open operation and that it returns to closed with no tension on cable
3.start/ warm up motor
4. check for vacuum leaks, fuel leaks
5. set initial timing
6. set idle using idle stop near your target idle
7. Set and balance idle mixture screws using a vacuum gauge, ie, its warmed up, you turn them 1/4, 1/8 at a time and see if vacuum/idle goes up or down . as it runs better, lower idle back towards target if it starts picking up rpm keep turning them in or out until its no longer gaining vacuum or rpms, then turn them back 1/4 turn if 2 corner mixture, 1/8 turn richer if 4 corner mixture
8. listen for misses at idle or when you rev it up, its very common to see a cracked spark plug on boats that been worked on as some manifolds are very close to plugs, doesn't hurt to pull every plug and just look at condition, have spares in your hands before you do so you don't have to drop everything your doing to go get them
9. IF I was tuning it, before doing wot, cruising test, I would install a 02 sensor and a temporary fuel pressure gauge. Lets say there is some restriction, pumps weak, lines pinched, whatever, if it cant hold within 1 psi of idle fuel pressure at wot, there's a problem. You can install a 02 sensor in a riser, not a easy job but pulling the motor back out after it detonates is a harder job
10. here is a link to the 02 bung that fits water cooled stock manifolds: https://howellefi.com/product/adapto...or-marine-use/
all this is assuming your rotor in distributor is tight, dist caps new or like new with no signs of cross arching, corrosion, your wires are new and work, not burned on a manifold or a boots pulled part way off where spark has to jump inside, etc
11. once its warmed up and all this is done, I would also tell you to use a set back timing light and rev it up and look at total timing, not a bad idea to look at harmonic balancer outer ring and rubber insulator, if swelled up and bulging, theres a chance it has spun outer ring and your timing numbers are incorrect , the time to check that its correct was when heads were off, put motor on tdc with dial indicator, roll .050 down in each direction then average the tdc spot center and look at timing mark vs tab.
lots of other stuff to check but this is what comes to mind
lets revisit your carb: your running some kinda edelbrock carb? I personally hate them things but regardless the typical calibration of most out of box carbs is a little lean for marine applications, I often need to go with bigger jets (or in your case smaller metering rods)to get"safe " afrs.
Safe afrs: your compression is at least one point too high for the cam you have and even marginal as far as detonation on premium, at 10-1 + points of compression with iron heads, the only thing thats going to make this live when torque loaded at wot is a slightly rich afr and conservative timing. we run boost on premium in boats without blowing up by tuning into mid 11's at wot, cools cylinder with the extra fuel. I invested in 10 02 sensor for my dyno, engines with intakes like yours will have a AFR delta of as much as 3 points, ie, richest cylinder may be 11.0-1, leanest may be 14-1 or higher. Thats the cylinder that will turn plug white and break rings lands, melt the top, whatever at wot with what you would think is a normal tune. You dont have the luxury of seeing which cylinder/ cylinders this is now since its in the boat but as I mentioned earlier at one point I dynoed a 502 with similar intake and #3 cylinder was quite lean. So my point is a tailpipe reading of 12.5/13-1 will almost guarantee your 'leanest" cylinder will be too hot combined with your high cylinder pressures from small cam/high compression .
IF I was tuning this less than ideal combination, I would tune rich at wot. Lets say you skip the 02 deal, run it at wot briefly, see your wot rpms, change to 10% smaller high speed needle(makes it 10% richer) run it at wot AGAIN, if it pulls the same rpms, your at least still in the range. Since we're concerned with possible detontation, I would tune richer and richer until it loses rpm, at that point, you've went too far and go back a little. I would tell you to try to color new plugs but unleaded gas doesn't color real well and if you dont have experience with it, you'd prob be left guessing at that point, Smitty
1. inspect for loose, cracked hoses, missing vacuum port plugs,
2. check throttle travel for wide open operation and that it returns to closed with no tension on cable
3.start/ warm up motor
4. check for vacuum leaks, fuel leaks
5. set initial timing
6. set idle using idle stop near your target idle
7. Set and balance idle mixture screws using a vacuum gauge, ie, its warmed up, you turn them 1/4, 1/8 at a time and see if vacuum/idle goes up or down . as it runs better, lower idle back towards target if it starts picking up rpm keep turning them in or out until its no longer gaining vacuum or rpms, then turn them back 1/4 turn if 2 corner mixture, 1/8 turn richer if 4 corner mixture
8. listen for misses at idle or when you rev it up, its very common to see a cracked spark plug on boats that been worked on as some manifolds are very close to plugs, doesn't hurt to pull every plug and just look at condition, have spares in your hands before you do so you don't have to drop everything your doing to go get them
9. IF I was tuning it, before doing wot, cruising test, I would install a 02 sensor and a temporary fuel pressure gauge. Lets say there is some restriction, pumps weak, lines pinched, whatever, if it cant hold within 1 psi of idle fuel pressure at wot, there's a problem. You can install a 02 sensor in a riser, not a easy job but pulling the motor back out after it detonates is a harder job
10. here is a link to the 02 bung that fits water cooled stock manifolds: https://howellefi.com/product/adapto...or-marine-use/
all this is assuming your rotor in distributor is tight, dist caps new or like new with no signs of cross arching, corrosion, your wires are new and work, not burned on a manifold or a boots pulled part way off where spark has to jump inside, etc
11. once its warmed up and all this is done, I would also tell you to use a set back timing light and rev it up and look at total timing, not a bad idea to look at harmonic balancer outer ring and rubber insulator, if swelled up and bulging, theres a chance it has spun outer ring and your timing numbers are incorrect , the time to check that its correct was when heads were off, put motor on tdc with dial indicator, roll .050 down in each direction then average the tdc spot center and look at timing mark vs tab.
lots of other stuff to check but this is what comes to mind
lets revisit your carb: your running some kinda edelbrock carb? I personally hate them things but regardless the typical calibration of most out of box carbs is a little lean for marine applications, I often need to go with bigger jets (or in your case smaller metering rods)to get"safe " afrs.
Safe afrs: your compression is at least one point too high for the cam you have and even marginal as far as detonation on premium, at 10-1 + points of compression with iron heads, the only thing thats going to make this live when torque loaded at wot is a slightly rich afr and conservative timing. we run boost on premium in boats without blowing up by tuning into mid 11's at wot, cools cylinder with the extra fuel. I invested in 10 02 sensor for my dyno, engines with intakes like yours will have a AFR delta of as much as 3 points, ie, richest cylinder may be 11.0-1, leanest may be 14-1 or higher. Thats the cylinder that will turn plug white and break rings lands, melt the top, whatever at wot with what you would think is a normal tune. You dont have the luxury of seeing which cylinder/ cylinders this is now since its in the boat but as I mentioned earlier at one point I dynoed a 502 with similar intake and #3 cylinder was quite lean. So my point is a tailpipe reading of 12.5/13-1 will almost guarantee your 'leanest" cylinder will be too hot combined with your high cylinder pressures from small cam/high compression .
IF I was tuning this less than ideal combination, I would tune rich at wot. Lets say you skip the 02 deal, run it at wot briefly, see your wot rpms, change to 10% smaller high speed needle(makes it 10% richer) run it at wot AGAIN, if it pulls the same rpms, your at least still in the range. Since we're concerned with possible detontation, I would tune richer and richer until it loses rpm, at that point, you've went too far and go back a little. I would tell you to try to color new plugs but unleaded gas doesn't color real well and if you dont have experience with it, you'd prob be left guessing at that point, Smitty
As for your list, we have already done 1-7 but still unsure on the vaccum leak thing. We need to triple check that. And as for #s 6 and 7 we are having a hard time getting to idle where it is supposed to as a result of whatever has happened which really tonne screams vaccumn leak and with the .I inal amount of vaccumn lines one would think it is a gasket issue.
Regarding carb, yes it's a Weber (Edelbrock 1410 is modern version). We are supposed to test changing the springs, if the vaccine has lowered as a result of the cam change the a metering rod spring change should help the idle however a couple of you guys have mentioned this cam isn't big enough for that to be the cause. I tend to agree because it WAS idling fine then SOMETHING happened. Edelbrock has a chart of what rods and jets to put in to achieve different levels of richness/leanness. I will definitely make swapping to a richer setup a priority.
When I spoke to th mechanic on Thursday he wasn't thrilled at the idea of checking compression again at this point but I'm going to have to demand it. We need to know if we did any serious damage to the motor and it will also give an opportunity to look at the plugs and try to see if they lean/rich etc.
Fwiw, before this motor Fernandes last September we had carb rebuilt by guaranteed carburetor in largo Florida who are well known in the industry. We also put on new distributor cap, rotor and wires so doubtful those are issue since motor had run well after that. Certainly worth double checking wires for getting damaged from heat or something of the sort.
That O2 bung is a nice idea......it will be useful to drop Holley sniper in when I find out this carb is junk hahahahahah
