Drive sticks in forward after hard run??
 

Brand new drive.What would cause a Bravo one style drive to stick in forward , After I run it, come off plane at Idle it doesn't want to come out of forward . Its worse if I run it hard ,I have to pull on it so hard it feels like its going to break the cable!!! its harder than if you killed the motor with it in gear. I am guessing its pressing the clutch in to the clutch cone so hard its sticking.

Some mentioned that the clutch cone/seat was flat and would not let the shift fork let it roll out of gear?

Its idling at 750rpm, I can even try pulling it out of gear coming off plane with no load on the drive/prop and its the same. Blipping the throttle doesn't help either.

Any suggestions
Thanks:D

Rob, if you pull off the front cover have someone turn the motor over to check and see if the + and - line up on the drive gears. On yours they will be hard to see.

Check this out to; http://forums.boatfreaks.org/showthread.php?t=6744

Panther,
I agree, it could be misalignment of the gears or cable adjustment. But after reading that thread, there are a lot of factors involved. I have not seen this problem as of yet, so I have not had to tackle it. And that is a very interesting thread!!

Strip, does anything apply to your situation after reading that thread?? It would seem that in your case, it is still coming out of gear, just very hard. I was told that the offset in the brass ring is suppose to help kick the clutch out of the gear.
Another possiblity is that the spring may be missing or broken, that is located between the cone and the gear.
Almost have to take it apart to see what is happening inside.
First I would pull the back cap and have someone roll over the motor and shift it.. you have to either use an external starter switch or bypass the safety switch to do it. But the input to the drive must be rotating to shift it.
Look to see if the mechanism is rotating properly.. nothing loose, etc. Then try to line up the + and - on the gear brass rings, they should line up with the lines on the case (in the middle of the opening).

After that, it needs to be taken apart.. to look deeper.

Hope this helps..
D*ck

The port LH drive is the one sticking. it is ok until ya run it get some heat in it or a load on it , before this it shifts fine,The harder you run it the harder it is to come out of gear.

I dont think its the cap, there real thick on a B Max. unless the clearance is off.

How could a cable ajustment make it stick into gear? Make the clutch cone not want to disengage?

Doesn't the shift fork push the clutch into the cone and the TQ/Force keep in planted in gear?

[QUOTE=Strip Poker 388Doesn't the shift fork push the clutch into the cone and the TQ/Force keep in planted in gear?[/QUOTE]

Rob,

Thats what I always thought. There is no way all the torque these engines produce, will not slip the clutch simply by the small amount of pressure the shift yoke and cam can apply. I think??

I know you are running B-Max drives. Is the shifting mechanism the same basic design as as a Bravo?

Vinny

Ok.. I thought we were talking about Bravo drive.. Now I really dont know what I am talking about.. I have yet to put my hands on a Bmax... and have not played with this problem on a bravo yet.
But my thought is that if the linkage is not pulling/pushing on it hard enough, it may not be letting it pop out. On the bravo the cam swings around and is hit by the spinner rings and are suppose to do the popping out as I have been told. (I was kind of thinking out loud.) Torque does wedge the cone into the gear, after the oil is forced out it will lock.. If it is misshaped I can see it getting stuck in the gear. If the taper on both the gear and cone are not matched, then I could see it sticking. Once it does pop out.. can you feel it?? What I mean is, does the linkage free up and shift in and out of gear easily? That would tell us the cone is stuck to the gear and not the linkage hanging or binding..
How hot does the drive get?? Monster like that should stay pretty cool with all the oil in it?? If the gear is getting hot and expands and the cone just seats deeper, then maybe it just doesnt want to let go. If the cone has the ridges, like a bravo, do they all show the same wear? That might indicate a taper misalignment..
Like I a said.. thinking out loud.. hope it helps

D*ck

D!ck,

The parts are essentially the same but everything is bigger.

Frank

Thanks for the insight D*ck.Like Panther said its the same as a bravo.
I am thinking this could be it
maybe the spinner rings arnt letting it spin out,guessing?

its will do it before the drive oil get hot,Its a water housing so I dont think its getting hot, I can touch the cap while it running and its just warm.

As far as linkage it feels like I am going to break the cable I am pulling so hard.It will pop out and shifts fine once I get it out.Until I get up running again and put a load on it. then it will stick again . Also coming off plane with the other drive still in gear with the sticking drive no load it doesn't make anydifferance on trying to pop it out of gear ,stuck the same .

Thanks for the replys:drink:

its all the same as a Bravo.


I just dont see a cable ajustment causing this ,Does anybody else?????

I had one of mine that would come out of gear
somewhat harder than normal, the shifter would also
pulse, or ratchet when attempting to take it out of gear.

I replaced the gearset and the problem went away.

I'm more to believe the problem was due to the
brass eccentric sections of the gears being worn
down just enough that it doesn't snap the shift fork
and knock the cone out of the gear quickly.

JaayTeee is saying what I am meaning.. The cam has to hit the brass eccentric ring and get kicked out. If the cam isnt turning far enough ( cable adjust or linkage adjust??) then the bump on the cam wouldnt get hit by the brass ring hard enough to pop it out. It sounds like the cone wedges in and wont pop out..
My question is, is the cam telling it to pop out hard enough to make it happen? Or is the cam worn, the brass ring worn, or the gear stack to tall, creating too much space for the size of cam bumps to create the kick out... If you pull the back cap and see the cam rotate all the way so that the bump is under the ring, then the linkage and cable adj is ok.. Now if the cone is getting wedged into the gear, try flipping gears and or another cone clutch.. if things change you are getting close. One thing you can do is limit the amount of travel the cone can go into the gear.. with a shim of some sort.. but it should work without it if everything is right.
It looks like they are using the Merc hub and just putting a differnt ring gear on that hub, looks like Merc cone.

Except for that bearing in the middle picture, looks like the same stuff as a Merc drive. I am surprised to see helical cut gears and not straight. I guess they are so much bigger than Merc gears, you dont need straight gears to handle the load.

Its all brand new, 10 hours started from day one.

I am thinking of swaping drives from side to side?

Helical cut gears have more tooth contact than straight cut gears. The straight cut gears of the XR were mercs way of cheating to make them stronger withouth actually making the gear bigger. That's why the XR whines and a standard bravo doesn't. A bravo gear is roughly 3 inches in diameter, a BMax is roughly 5 inches.

The ball bearing is definetely different and seems much tougher than the wafer bearing in the merc.

Strip,
I was thinking the same thing.. it would be easier to just swap the props and run it with the sticks in the rev position. If it worked then you could swap the drives from side to side.
I was also thinking of the cable adjustment. It probably isnt the problem like you say. How far does the stick move before you feel resistance and it stops moving? There would have to be some movement for the cam to go from the fwd position towards the neutral position. At that point the eccentric ring should hit the the cam and knock it out of gear. If the shift shaft was binding it might hang it up and not let it turn far enough so that it does kick it out.
My thought is, that the cone is getting wedged into the gear, but why, I dont know. Like I said before, mismatch of the taper?? Runing it in the opposite direction, may tell you something...

Have you talked to Dean or Ron about this?? What do they say about it?
Sorry I cant be of more help..

Panther,
I see in your pics, that the upper portion of the cone has wear on the two bottom ridges, only.. That seems to me to be a mismatch of the taper. Usually the ridges are worn pretty much the same all the way across.. I wonder if that is the actual cause?? Maybe thats\'s what is going on in Strip's case??

I have to send the rear cap back to get resealed Monday, so I was going to change oil and swap them for the hell of it just to see.

I did notice a lot of the clutch cone brass/bronze stuff in the drive bottle.

The one I traded in did the same thing he said at that time it was the clutch cone/female part was worn on the top, he said they have a angle on them that lets it roll out of gear, that itswas worn flat,

Now Dean says its just cable ajustment.:eek:

Ron on the old one said live with it .

I am going to play with ajustmet Sunday see if it does anything.

The new style foot does not like flat water.its worse that the old onesin handling.Maybe it will have some chop this weekend and strech it out and see.:drink:

Thats a lot of hardware there!! :D

I'm not sure, mine shift fine after 70 hrs. I reversed drives from side to side this year and they still run/shift fine.

The first run I took with these drives last year, one was stuck in forward and we ran in 6-8 ft seas. Once it released it never happen again the rest of the year. Maybe the cone/clutch had to wear itself in first?

I am a little hesitant to send the old stuff back,Deans been taking care of me over the years fairly well.I just need to get the new bugs out:eek: I did buy a spare foot because I know thats the week link, so if on vacation and I break one I can be back on the water in a few hours:drink:

It looks like I got enough stuff to start a drive biz:rolleyes: :drink:

"The one I traded in did the same thing he said at that time it was the clutch cone/female part was worn on the top, he said they have a angle on them that lets it roll out of gear, that itswas worn flat,

Now Dean says its just cable ajustment. "

I am wondering if Dean is referring to the an angle on the cone that is a bit different from the gear? Most of the cones I remove show signs of even wear across the face of the ridges. But if Dean says cable adj.. he should know. But the Merc units work good in most cases. I am just wondering what the diff is between the two. I would suspect it would be in the gear itself where the clutch seats.
If swapping them does it.. and as Panther said.. it did it once then not again.. in his case maybe he fixed it by doing it once and the mating surfaces changed to a happy place.
It would be interesting to see a pic of your cone and the gear it is doing in. See where the wear is on the ridges and if the gear surface is smooth.
Panther, is the pic above, of the gear/cone that did stick once??

There was a lot of brass/bronze clutch cone material in the oil when I drained it, There was a little metal slivers on the magnet on both.

I am swapping from side to side. I had to send the rear cap back to Dean,it was leaking thru the casting.He is going to reseal it ,I hope that works , The drive fluid leaking is making a hell of a mess on the transom:(

I think a found a problem or the problem? The shift fork linkage is bottom out against the housing going one way and the other way it binding against the floor enough to wear a groove in it . I am going to grind some clearance in this area maybe this will help if nothing else let it shift easier:(

Any other suggestions?

Click on pick to enlarge
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9...age2007bj8.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4...age2002ff8.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1...argedl1.th.jpg

metal on plug

Rob,
Is the wear mark in the position of the gear that wont come out? You may have found it?? Lets hope it is something simple..

Now about the metal on those magnets.... I think there may be an issue... Any of that chunks you can feel with your fingers??

The one that bottom against the case was forward and its on the other side now,. So it will be running in the reverse gear.I am still going to grind clearance on them Hope I dont go thru:( I still belive its in the cone but Ive eliminated that by swapping:D

I havent felt the metal yet. I think there just flakes and not chunks, The drives are new 10-12 hours first oil change,Ive had B-Max drives since 2002 and they always had some metal on the mags .

Both drives that he loaned me for the summer I tore down just to see,had lower gears going out,its the weak link and thats why I bought a spare.They just eat lower gears.


Rob:drink:

Rob,

The first time I changed my oil last year they had the same amount of metal on the magnet as the plug on the left.

Instead of grinding clearance on the case in the back, can you grind the gold colored lower shift arm instead? Still not sure why it's hitting the lower part of the case. Even though the pin/shift assembly "floats" in there, once the cone clutch engages it's just along for the ride...not sure why it would push it down... Very strange, especially when you haven't run them very long. :confused:

The gold lever is thin in the area that the stainless rod is going thru, It looks like the top of the rod were the cotter pin is ,is were its hitting the case.


I was turning the prop by hand while my girl shifted it,the brass piece moves a pretty good bit up and down.

That's weird.. mine doen't move much at all.

D!ck (Mr_gadgets), is that normal?

The shift lever will move up and down.. in a normal bravo it is about 3/8" or so.. never measured it, but it does move quite a bit. I have never spun the propshaft and shifted it.. I always turn the input shaft and then shift it.. I use a finish nail with a brass ferrel on the end, to fit into the shift cable receiver.. and a pair of small vise grips on the other end.. to shift it. Or if the back cap is off, I move the lever, while turning the input shaft.. The shift rod will move as much as the cam lobes (bumps) cause them to move and the cone going into gear..
and you are correct, once into gear is should just be along for the ride..

In a bravo there are certain places that produce metal.. Two ways to get rid of it.. change the oil at short intervals during break in. Or recycle the oil thru a filter and cooler.. which I have been playing with for a while.. You should see the metal that the filter captures..

Well I ground the spots were it was hitting.When I took it apart the brass looking lever had been ground on for clearance were the shift rod hits the innerside of the case, The rod was ground flat on the bottom for making clearance from were it hits the floor, were the wear spots are in the picks.This may of made it weak,I guess if it breaks I know were to look first:( The port drive is now on the star side and it looks good on clearance. I did notice the drive that was sticking in forward, that it looked like it was wearing on the top of the brass/bronze female cone part were the clutch fork hits it to make it shift. there was some jagged metal on the top edge of like it was digging into it.All the other gear cones didnt have this wear .


D*ck what you consider short intervals on oil change,10 20 hours.

The thing I am thinking about is...... the dive shifts fine, even running normal and come off plane it will come out of gear .Until I run it hard or throttle it into boost,Thats when it sticks in forward.After I yank it out of forward it shifts fine again until I run it hard again.It only sticks when I get into it like above say 3700 or into boost. The harder or longer I run it the harder it sticks.

Rob,whats the latest thing that B-max is doing to the lower gears,they are just stock merc gears,correct? Last I heard they were supposed to be coated with some kind of miracle stuff,Smitty

Rob,
I still think the cone is getting wedged into the gear and it wont release it, easily. I would think the tapers should match (cone to gear surface) so that the cone doesnt wedge on just a couple of ridges..??

Let us know how it works..

Stock

Will do. I am suppose to get the resealed rear cap back today. I sent it to them overnight freight and there suppose to of shipped it out Wed back overnight .Should have it today ?

Rob,
I missed your question on the oil change interval. .. On a new drive with XR gears (read that net forged) and the lower gears are the same.. I like to see the oil drained after 5hrs, then 10 more and then 15 more.. After that, depending on how hot the drive gets, 25-50hrs.. It all depends on what you see when you drain it.. If it looks new and smells good.. then you are early.. If it is dark and full of metal and it smells burnt.. you are too late.. So some where in between.. works.. *S*..

I have included some pics of a cone that I find as normal wear.. the shiny spots on the ridges are pretty even all the way across.. This indicates to me that when the cone gets wedged into the gear, the load is shared all the way across the face of the cone.. In that case the gear stretchs (if it does) the same all the way across the face of contact.. If it were to only contact a few ridges.. I could see it sticking in the gear.. I am no engineer, so I may be wrong.. just observing what I see when a find a normal working drive.. at least as far as the shifting process is concerned.

Tell us how it went with swaping the drives..

D*ck

Thanks for the input. These Bmaxs the oil gets dark real quick.I dont think it from heat prob metal and wear. I have ran it hard and felt the drive and it just warm not hot. The upper case has water passages in it so its pretty water cooled.

When Panther took his apart this winetr he had the upper gear that was real dark[blue], looked like it had had some temp in it. Dean told him to run it down worry about it.

Well the rear cap was sent out 2 day air, I guess I assumed they would return it red like I sent it to them.So if it shows up friday Ill put it back into the water that night,

Thanks:drink:

If the mating surfaces of the cone and the gear
( female portion of the cone)don't match up and share the load , there are going to be high spots ( high pressure area's) that are more apt to spread the gear and wedge the cone in harder til it eventually mates with all the clutch area.

The spiral splines on the vertical driveshaft make the cone
act like an "easy out", the harder you twist on it, ( like
when you get into boost) the more it digs in,
it will continue to dig as long as it able to
push around the female mating surface.

Once it's dug it to where it's bottomed out,
those high pressure spots
may require extra effort
to dislodge the the shift cone.

Hope that makes sense.

Yep...still a little worried about that gear chitting the bed on July 4th weekend........ :eek:

If it holds up I'll just move on and say "thanks Dean" but if I loose the gear I'll say "told ya so".... :drink:

For good measure I swapped the drives from side-to-side anyway.