Is a bravo good enough???
 

Hi everyone in the States!

I'm currently rebuilding a 'Revenger 25'. It's a very sleek, low 25' inboard powerboat, as below. It'll also be quite light I'd imagine due to it's small size.

I'm going to be running a supercharged 502, running low boost, so I'm assuming around 500hp.
The boat will be used for pleasure and monthly racing in heavy offshore waters, it will see a lot of air time and I won't be backing off or taking it easy, especially when racing.

Currently the boat has a bravo drive fitted, which lasted for 10+ years of racing behind 400hp.

Will it be man enough behind 500hp though? Bear in mind this is a light, thin boat, not a hulking great wellcraft or something!
Thing is, it's a single engine boat and the waters around here are quite dangerous if I lose power, so just rebuilding it when it breaks isn't an option.
I've pretty much asked this before and it was suggested that I stick to bravo, but I can't help but think there must be a better option. I can see me ending up having to baby a bravo.

As I'm at the 'build' stage, now would be the time to change drive, as nothing is built yet.
All of that said though, I don't have a big budget, so buying konrad drives etc just isn't an option and I'm not convinced buying uprated versions of bravos is gonna help much either.

I can't help but wonder about a ssm drive, or surface drive, though I'm told a surface drive wouldn't work as the hull will require bow lift to run.

Impossible situation, I know, but any suggestions anyone?

Cheers, James

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/361/lite20relief.jpg

I'd run the Bravo ....you can get a New upper for less than 2K ....

I'm not the best one to answer you question, but if you decide the standuard Bravo 1 is not enough, I have a like new XR complete drive for sale, with lwp, and a nose cone.

Well thats a good thing, but my main issue is what I'd do if I broke down. I could be in the middle of nowhere with no-one about and the way the tide runs around here I'd be on rocks within 10 mins, that's what I want to avoid.

I wouldn't mind if it broke in the racing but I hear most people's go when they're just cruising. That said, I do have two drives currently, I could possibly keep swapping them out, one for racing, one for cruising?

Dick (Mr Gadgets) has said stay bravo before, I gather his advice is about as good as it gets, guess I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance, it'd be such a shame to build it all up for something that turns out to be insufficient.

James

First of all you will most likely have about 600hp, not 500hp. I have a 502 Dart Block bored to 509, 6lbs of boost on a B&M 250 blower, and I am producing 605hp at 5500rpms. I have bravo 1's, and they get hot, even at cruising. I have a very heavy boat though. If you keep the bravo 1's, I recommend getting the Halo Max drive shower. It makes a big difference. I would run it and keep a radio and a life jacket on board. I think the older style bravo 1's were rated below 400hp. If you run your boat hard all the time, you will most likely have problems. Good Luck!

If you want something reliable stay away from B anything, I wish I did
I have a blown 502.. two drives in under a year

It depends on how you drive it. Get on it easy and you will be fine - rip it constantly and launch it a lot and you might have some repairs ahead of you...

Larby already said that he is going to run it hard. Larby, I think you are already on borrowed time. When I repowered my 22 Donzi Classic from a 496 HO to a 525 EFI the drive lasted all of 7 hours! The XR/Imco shorty has held up so far.

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head there, it's not gonna be getting babied!! Racing is racing at the end of the day, and the waters are pretty rough around here!

As a few people who are running my kinda combo have said, it looks like a bravo will give issues. I might be lucky, but if I'm not and it does fail, it could be really serious for me, especially if I have my family on board!

So I guess the question is... What are my realistic options? Be nice, remember I'm not on a big budget here!

James

If you want to do it right, get a used Bravo #3 or #5 Drive, or an Arneson surface drive. Forget Bravo 1's and XR's. Be careful when you have your family on board.

I'm assuming you mean a SSM 3 or 5? I'd love surface drive to be an option, but I really need a more technical answer on them regarding their suitability to my hull design.
As for the ssm's, there's the availability of parts, and the lack of a builder in the UK. How often would I need to rebuild a SSM?

Cheers,

James

Yes, I'm talking about the SSM's. I read on a post that another company is making parts for the SSM's. I'm not sure who. I think they are rated for 675 or 775hp. You can go to www.go-fast.com and find out. They have good information. I'm not sure what a XR is rated at. The XR may be enough.....but you will be on the border line and I'm sure you could break it if you tried.

I just checked on www.go-fast.com. The SSM's are rated for 750hp. I think that is going to be your cheapest option that will be reliable. Otherwise, Arneson Surface drives. If you can't afford either, you will have to do like the rest of us bravo 1 owners......go slow so you don't break anything and forget racing.

The B Max might be a cost effective solution, not sure the max power they handle. Someone told me 900 hp...not sure though. They are definitely a beefier casing and they will bolt up to your bravo gimble.

Just did my reseach. B-Max is 850hp. and bolts up to your existing bravo drive gimble. If you have high HP, you may want to upgrade your gimble. That may be your easiest upgrade that is priced fairly. Call the Brovo Shop.

Any idea what the price is on a Bmax? I thought they only took a fraction more hp than a bravo?

Prices for 2nd hand SSM's don't seem too bad, but I think I'd need a #5 drive, as the bravo is literally as high as it could go on the boat to get it in the right place! IIRC, #3's are much longer?

James

The new B-MAX drives are stronger than the older ones.
I just talked to them. I think it was $14,300 or $14,700. No TAX since I was out of state. You don't have to do any transom work, no transmission, etc. Maybe an upgraded gimble from IMCO. Call them.

IMCO SCX or Bmax I think are your best bet.
I talked to The new owner of the Bravo shop (BMax) seems like a really nice guy.. is making improvements over the previous ownership..
Plan on around $15K for either

Wow, that's quite a bit of money still, though I agree it's for a great bit of kit. I forget how expensive boating can be sometimes with 15k being considered cheap!! :drink:

James

Bmax
 

hi if you are in the market for Bmax i was talking to someone who has two i am all so in the the uk 28 ft pantera twin 496 ho , and B1 drives which i think is the weak link here as i allready have one stuck in forward gear and am now replaceing upper just waiting for it to arrive after all the talk on B1 breaks on here i am in the market for something stronger as you no get break down in the uk and it allways seems a a problem getting stuff ,nice boat buy the way friend of mine had revenger back in the early 90s red and white with 502 at that time i had 26 bonito 383 small block with blower let me no wot you do re drives

If you seriously want something that you can run and not break, and dont want to have to completely change your entire setup by going with an Arneson, because there is no denying that they are pretty much unbreakable however they require alot of dialing in for some boats, I would go with an Imco SCX. There are guys running very big power through them without a single issue thus far. It will bolt up to the HP transom assembly with a helmet change and a new gimble ring. The hot setup is the SCX upper and an SC lower, which you can find plenty of them used. Figure $10k for the upper and the accessories for it and another $3-4k for the lower.

I've seen used Bmaxs for $3k before. That was about two years ago at a swap meet in s.fl. Dunno the condition of those drives, probably needed rebuilding. Since you are only talking 600 hp, not sure you have to pony up for an IMCO even they sound awesome. If your're thinking 800 hp, that is a different story and no longer sounds like a reliable family boat... Not exactly a no brainer to build a reliable 800 hp motor, takes a lot of smart building to get there and it stay together.

Now that's more like my kinda price Rexx! I've got no intentions to go above 600hp, want it to stay largely stock and reliable. Just need enough poke to get to about 80.
Wish I just had a couple of promaxes on the back now!!

What's the cheapest Bmax anyone knows of then??

Cheers, James

Just found out about Volvo DPX drives, looks like the answer to my prayer, and duo prop to boot for a single engine install!

Trouble is, I can't find one. Anyone know where I might get one? What kinda price do they go for?

Cheers, James

volvo
 

hi wot made you go for the volvo

Hiya Paul,

Well, I was chatting to a guy in the UK who knows his stuff a touch and who currently runs a pair of DPR's.
From his advice and everything I've seen so far, the DPX is all but bomb proof up to about 600hp, and the DPR is pretty close. DPX was designed for petrols up to 600hp, DPR is their current drive for BIG diesels. Both are duo prop too.

In my situation, I'd be best with a DPX really, but parts are getting hard to find now. There's also a limited selection of props for them. Either drive will do though, and the fact they're duo prop will give me much better stability and acceleration.

In your situation, I'd probably go with the DPR drives as they're current model, so easier to get bits for, and still more than capable of taking the power you need!

To cut a long story short, do a search on here for 'volvo DPX' or 'volvo DPR' and look at all the positive comments about them and how little trouble people have!

Then, you'll join me in realising they're all but impossible to find! :poopoo:

James

The Imco SC's should hold up to 600 HP pretty well. No matter what you need to do the throttle work while catching air. One thing good about the SC's is uses XR gears, always available and the uppers are rebuildable with replaceable steel towers unlike the reg B1's and XR's. They bolt right up where with the SCX's you need to change the gimble bell. The SC lowers are strong and from what I am reading the SCX lowers take more power to turn. Any surface drive or SSM requires a transmission and re-rigging your boat, plus the expence of purchasing all the componants. IMO your least expensive way to get the strongest drive for the least $ is the Imco SC. No matter what, you will blow it apart if your not working the sticks. Just my 2ct's and I'm going thru it as we speak.

PS Didn't B MAX go under or sell?

Volvo's hard to find parts and cost big $ if you can find them.

volvo
 

hi james i am looking right now for the volvo my volvo drive was a 290 duo prop running the bigist ss props volo done paid $700 when it was $2 to the £. over here volvo wanted £1100 the drive you are looking at is a much newer drive i am gessing if you need to get in touch with me re any poker runs comeing up my #is 01268 693564

James,
The Volo duoprop, how fast has anyone run them. Reason I ask is I know with the B3 top end is limited, they just don't go through the water fast at all.
The Bmax upper is solid, the lower uses Merc gears and a different vertical shaft arrangement, I believe it is longer than the Merc, but not sure.
It would be the same situation for an Imco SCX/SC, accept the the SCX could use a stock Merc lower or the SC lower. They have a special coupler to make that happen.

Another thing to consider is the cost of upper gear sets on the two drives. I believe the Bmax is more than the SCX but quite a bit.

In your situation, with the blower motor and not being able to tolerate a failure, I think you should move up to something more solid than the B1. The B&M or Whipple blowers will produce more torque at 3000rpm than a Vortec or Procharger. That is the area that loads the drive the most and as ICDEDPPL found out, the helical gears couldnt handle the torque his 600SC was putting out.
If you can find a good set of XR gears, these days, that would be the next best step, economically. But finding a set that are good is the issue. Not sure if Merc has done anything to help the tooth snapping problem of the last 3-4yrs.
Trying to solve this problem cheaply may be the toughest part. Each Bravo you break, will bring you closer to the cost of the better drives..

Dick

Thanks, I'll have a look into the sc's and see if they're likely to be strong enough. Re-rigging isn't an issue at all as the boat isn't rigged! I could put in a V drive if I wanted at the stage it's at!

Cheers, I'll most likely keep in touch via email, easiest for me! The DPX is quite an old drive, but good. Finding one is the issue! DPR is newer and way out of my price range!

Hi Dick, thanks for getting involved and helping again! I'm amazed you're not fed up with me yet!!
The main issue I have is that having a drive break really isn't an option to me like it is in the US. Our tides run at 12 knots plus (15mph!!), and it's very rocky and rough here. If i lost all drive, me and my family could be wrecked on rocks in seconds, with no-one around to help.
A friend of mine with much the same setup but slightly less power just snapped teeth off the gears in a brand new bravo x drive, so that doesn't fill me with confidence in their gears!
The volvo DPX has been known to run past 100mph and doesn't seem to have the limitations of the B3.

Right now I'm very tempted to try a surface drive with rocker tabs and a little fin on the bottom of the skeg to give bow lift, that combination seems to work quite well for others, and at least I'd know the drive isn't gonna break! I can get a lancing fixed surface drive here in the UK relatively cheaply.

James

surface drive
 

hi james i have known mike at lanceing for 30 +years we even had jag powerd boats at the same time his was a 23ft phantom i had a shakespere with the jag 4speed box and shaft drive he will sort you out with the write bit of kit not prity but works well and very strong not much to break good luck with wot you go with off sub the boat mike won london to monte carlo in the 70s is in a museum just ut the road from me wot a race that must have been allso the guy helping you out mr gadget seems very helpfull and knows his way round drives when it come to beefing up my B1s i may take his advice. keep me posted re paul from uk

ps from last messg
 

regarding speed for duo props the ocke mannerfeld V24 boats run single 5.7 gxi volvo duo props and can 80 -85 mph and dont no if you have heard of them in the states they are 2man 24 feet v bottom very very good it the rough seas the class off race is called V24offshore . regards paul

I have a perfect set of Lab Props for a DPX if you find one, check them out, they are on ebay.