Upgrade from No 1/Alpha to Bravo
 

In making long range plans for the build up/restoration of my Formula 255 Liberator, I have come to the realization that "power to the water" will always be limited by the Alpha drives. The logical move is to stay with my current 260~300 HP 350 Chevy set up but make the change to Bravo drives.

On the surface...I know that I have to replace the gimbal/transom assembly as well as the drives, the coupler, the flywheel?,add the raw water pump cooling set up and possibly go to the closed cooling set up.

Is there anything else that I am missing that is obvious? Is the transom opening the same?

I am lucky being in South Florida where used parts are plentiful and I see used gimbal/transom assemblies for sale regularly. Is the gimbal/transom assembly the same for Bravo 1, Bravo 2 & Bravo 3? I obviously know what makes up a Bravo 3 but I am curious as to the difference between a Bravo 1 & a Bravo 2. Will a Bravo 1/Bravo 2 reliably handle 450~500 HP? How about Bravo 3?

Is it realistic to think that I can put twin Bravo 1 or Bravo 2s, A~Z in my boat by shopping the equipment (used)...for around $4k~$5k? Based on what I have seen for sale ...it seems possible but having not done it...I don't know.

I know that the design of this hull with 750~1000 HP will always be limited to a max of about 75 MPH...which is about as fast as I would want to run it anyway. I would like to be able to run 60~65 MPH comfortably for long periods of time with out pushing the limits of the power. I'm thinking strong 383s or LS-1s.

All thoughts and suggestions are welcomed.

As far as for the parts you will basically need you are correct. Or at least to get you started anyway. As far as what you will end up spending, I think for twins you will be over your initial budget hopes if you do it right and are using used parts that are in nice shape.. But you never know..

The boat will be better with the bravos, it will also be more reliable drive wise which will also make it worth a little more. It will certainly help you handle a little more power with in reason without adding much drag. I would not look for a bravo 2 or 3 for your hull as it wont benefit you speed wise or durability wise. But both can bolt to the standard b1 gimble housing..

I usually never have any used or take out stuff to offer, but currently I do have some used take out bravo stuff if it interests you.. I can also get you new components if you need them.. You can reach me during the week if you need any of it.. :) Jamie / Lakeside Restorations 570-639-2628

Forget the B2, as stated. You don't need that on that kind of hull. The B3 prolly won't ba a good idea either. If you are going with the 260-300 hp, why go B1? If you go up in hp to 450-500 hp, the B1 should live. A B3 with that kind of power will get really hot, not a great idea. Take care of your B1 drives, and it should be ok. Just remember, torque is also a drive killer, not just hp, so go easy on the sticks.
Good luck with your project, keep us posted.

Happy boating:drink:

Thanks for the good words. I'm thinking solid drives before even considering big power....and I know that TQ is king on the water.

I would like to stay with SB Chevy's to keep the weight to a minimum so unless I get into building blower motors I think 400~450 HP & 425~450 LBs of TQ will be about where I want to be reliably. This boat is heavy for it's size (Hey...it's a Formula) 5500LBs+ dry with a full bow to stern 24 deg dead-rise. As I said earlier...strong, well built 383's with a flat TQ curve spinning 23"~25" Mirage props should put this old girl in the 70's.

More important to me is the ability to run 50~60 MPH for hours at a time with out "sucking up the seat covers" worrying about what is about to break. Here in SE Florida we love to throw the passport and a duffel bag together and run over to Freeport/Lucaya for a day or two...maybe even run to the Abacos.

Finding out that a rig won't stay together 35 miles out is not where I want to be.

With that power, you'll be glad you went B1. In terms of midrange cruise speed, time to plane ect. the B3 is nice. I have just seen so many with corrosion and durability issues, and they are not fast drives. With a set of B1's in the water, you will have all the prop bite you'll need for a 25' 5500 lbs. boat.

On a side note....

This is what happens when you run an Alpha or No 1 Merc with a torn U-Joint Bellows.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/DSC_0383.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/DSC_0379.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...r/DSC_0378.jpg

I kept looking for the source of a loud whine when I would start the starboard engine on my '79 Formula 255 Liberator. Well I knew the U-Joint Bellows was torn but I had not pulled the Upper Unit off until today.....I think I found my problem. When I pulled it off the gimbal housing a double hand full of a greasy, muddy, rocky, sandy goo plopped out on the driveway. I reached in to see if I could even turn the gimbal bearing...yes barely and it sounds like rubbing 2 pieces of sand paper together.

So boys and girls...this is what happens when we run a Mercruiser Stern-drive with a torn U-Joint Bellows...the photos speak for themselves.

What I am trying to figure out is what went through the mind of the last A$$ hole that ran this thing?

Unbelievably, the drive shaft and the U-Joints turn freely...I'm almost afraid to look inside the gear case. I think I'm going to pull the "helmet" and do a gimbal bearing/seal /bellows replacement (after I clean it up LOL) and figure on replacing the drive.

What pisses me off is that this could have been avoided.

That is a busted bearing right there!

I'm not sure if I read your last post right. Do you plan to use the Alpha gimbal for the B1? That is a no-go. You'll need the Bravo tansom assy for the B1 drive. That is an easy swap, same cut out with 2 more holes.

If you plan to sell the Alpha's, check them inside so you know what you are selling, and maybe see, what a good Alpha gimbal goes for used, compared to redo the one you got. If you plan to run the Alpha's, check them so you know all is well. With that kind of history, I would.

Roger that...I know about the B1 gimbal ,etc.
I'm going to clean this No 1 gimbal up, replace the gimbal bearing, U-Joint/Exhaust/Shift Cable Bellows...scrap this drive and run a new SEI or a solid used Alpha 1 until I do the Bravo deal.

That brings up another possibility/question.....

I have a shot at a pair of strong 450HP 454's/TRS drives A~Z w/transom assy's/trim pumps/K-Planes w/pumps & Gaffrig controls from a 302 SR-1 Formula.

A 302 has essentially the same bilge as my 255 and both boats have an 8' beam.

Question: is this set up too much weight for my boat...am I creating a "suicide missile" with that much power in this boat and does this make any sense? I'm willing to engineer anything that is sound and substantial (Hell...I've put 350's in Chevy Vegas!!) but I don't want to create something that is dangerous. On paper it doesn't seem any wilder than twin 260's in a 233 Interceptor...but I don't know.

To begin with. I would say don't.

Power is not the issue. But that is somewhat of a project. The TRS driveline is longer due to the tranny. The TRS is an old, but pretty strong drive, but because of age, parts are somewhat limited. You also may upset the cg of the boat and make it handle poorly. The transom cutout is different too, and would someone go back to B1 setup, it's a lot of work. In short, I consider it a downgrade from the B1 hands down. If he's willing to sell the 454's w/o drives, that's nice power for that boat. Should be fun, but stick with bravo's.

That's kind of what I thought. I consider the TRS to be "obsolete technology" as compared to the Bravo.

The seller of this stuff will sell any part of it I want to buy but I think I'll follow my plan to work this restoration in steps....Bravos>>>power. I don't want to tie up several thou in a pair of BB Chevy s that I'm not ready for.

I might buy the OEM Bolsters and remaining couch, coaming panels,etc....should finish out my cockpit nicely.

He is parting out because he can't get a buyer for a '84 302 SR-1 with a TRS set up. Seems like a shame but technology moves on.

Sounds like you got a good plan there. When doing power and drivetrain upgrades, do it step by step. Many have done stuff all at once, shorties, boxes, tabs, prob labbing and more power. Then when something dosen't work or add up, it's difficult to go back and see what was the reason.

Let's see some pic's during the project.

I am a contractor and engineer by profession so the planning comes naturally.

I have a good Nikon D80 and enjoy keeping records of before and after so I'll be posting plenty of pics.

If I could do it the way I wanted to I would pull the engines and completely re paint and re rig everything now but I'm going to put a reliable package together now to get on the water as soon as I can.

I will do the real clean up job when I pull the engines to R & R the drives.

I appreciate all of the suggestions and advice.

Any time.:ernaehrung004:

Looking forward to see the pics.

Get the bolsters! I have an '87 242 and added a set of bolsters out of an 00 311 and its the best thing I've done to my boat, other than upgrade the power and drives... Either way Formula bolsters are hard to come buy, bravo drives are not! Get those bolsters!

OK...after a year here is where I am....Got the Bolsters !!! The donor boat was a '90 model 292 Formula SR-1 with McLeod drop-out bolsters. I have all the hardware, new cables and actuator buttons and had new stainless button escucheons made since McLeod didn't have any of the originals. They are going too be a great addition to the boat.

Got new power...2: 365 horse 435 ft lb torque 355 Vortec Rollers. (numbers are per dyno). Just picked up a pair of DUI Marine Distributors from the Swap Shop. Still engineering what I will do with the exhaust...so I'm open. i am leaning towards Holley 650 Double Pumpers for the carbs...I have used them before and I like the mechanical secondaries. The intakes are Edelbrock/Volvo Performers brass lined aluminum.

I am just ready to pull the trigger on Bravo Transom Assemblies and have choices in the new~near new category of Bravo Standard Gimbal housing or HP for near the same money. Question...in this boat with this power is there any advantage to the HP assembly? As the boating budget allows over the next few weeks/months the next move will be to the Bravo I drives and the raw water pump set up with brackets and belts etc.

I would be further along but the steel trailer that came with the boat dissolved a little more every time I dipped it..... so after having a few wheels pass me by and sucking up the seat covers every time I towed the boat....I went to Willie at All American and got a new 10,500 dual torsion axle aluminum and said good bye to trailer anxiety along with several thousand dollars.

I need guidance on the Bravo Gimbal choice because I am real close on that deal.

Meanwhile...pulling the old 260's and No 1 drives and gimbals....updating the rigging and freshening the bilge.

Pics to follow soon...I promise.:evilb:

Bravo's now? What happen to the alpha 2's?

My brother and I are looking at a powerless 38' Top Gun around the corner so we are making future plans....

This ought to be good

The way I look at it is once I get into the Bravo equipment ...I am in and have few restrictions for moving that equipment to a larger boat with more power. The $ value of a 30+ year old boat doesn't go up much more based on what money and equipment is in it...it's still a 30+ year old boat. If I have strong power and drives it is esy to move to a larger different boat.

Say I find an older 38' Top Gun w/o power and drives and I make a move. I pull the drives, gimbals and rigging and move it over. As for the hot small blocks...they are universal and move fairly easily. In this market, big blocks are everywhere and can be had at a reasonable cost. When these Poker Run boys pull their original factory motors on a 2 year old boat for an upgrade, they don't really care what they get for the take out...as long as they get something. I have seen 502 takeouts advertised on the OSO Swap Shop for less than $10K for a pair of drop ins.

So what to do with a 255 Formula Liberator? Re-cap it as a center console open fisherman...hang a pair of 250 horse outboards on brackets and you have a great off shore fishing platform....same thing as a 233 but better.:evilb:

This all came to me once I started looking at boating as a long term hobby instead of quick fix kind of thing.

Got a pair of 2008 Bravo Gimbals coming from boatman22 in Texas next week...God I love this forum!!:evilb:

Rut Roh :eek: someone needs a thread listing all the best excuses we've used to legitimize an upgrade/purchase to a spouse or significant other :lolhit:
Looking forward to the updates sprink. Are you buying the whole gun? Or just the rigging? Can't wait to see the "38 Topgun restore" by -sprink hahahaha

My wife and I share everything...I made her happy at Christmas with a new Rolex watch and new end tables for the living room.
She feels guilty because all she bought me was some cologne and a Go Pro Hero Digital Video Camera. So I told her that she also bought me some dumb old engines and transom assemblies for the boat so she felt better....it's all in the presentation.:evilb:

When I get the Top Gun or whatever I will have to stash that at my "Man Cave" warehouse until my birthday or whatever. She's still feeling bad because I had to sell the 40' Sea Ray Express Cruiser two years ago due to a turn down in the economy. To her this is all "toys" to keep me happy until I can get what I really want.

It kind of reminds me of the song by Ozzie "Flying High Again"..."Mama's gona worry...I've been a Bad Bad Boy....so I say I'm sorry...It's something that I enjoy..."

A rolex and end tables for a pair of vortec sbc's and bravo transom assemblies. Sir you made a great trade! :drink: And the fact that you have a man cave warehouse is. Ridiculous... I want one :angry-smiley-038: