Yeah I was on Mr Gadgets boat and it shifted smooth.

But I was also on my buddys 46 black thunder that bought a new pair a couple years ago and they would shift hard. After some research we found out 2 problems.

Engines were idling to high

Drives needed a "update kit" he bought and installed. Sorry I don't know the details on that. Both problems were fixed at the same time so who knows which one really helped. They now shift smooth.

If your SCX drives are new they should have the "newest parts" in them.

Sorry to hear about your problems and hope you get them fixed!

Imco says idling prob to high also. Going to throw the puter on them this weekend and fix all that.

What oil are you guys using? Ordered some from Teague where I got drives and they sent Amsoil ( of course lol) Severe gear 75w-110
I thought they run Torco or something.

I bought mine from Teague as well, Torco RTF was in the crate that was dropped shipped directly from IMCO if memory serves me correctly?
I have over 70 hours on mine this year, two oil changes and no issues. I have 400 hour 525's in front of them shouldn't be an issue!!!

Pulling engines in a few weeks for refresh over winter!!! I have a winter project!!

Thanks Pat

:evilb::evilb::evilb::evilb::evilb:

That's what I thought--

and Refresh---- Don't forget the Whipples!!!!

:cool-smiley-011:

Hey guys, update on my IMCO swap for XR uppers. After about 50 hours this season and 3 oil changes the drives were perfect. Shifted smooth and oil at change intervals looked like new. I am glad this investment seems to have paid off!

Thanks! Speed loss?

Hard to say, I threw a blade off my Maximus props about mid season and had to replace with stock wheels. I'm looking into lab finishing the maximus props I bought or buuying a set of herings this offseason. If anything maybe 1-2 mph. Nice to have some reliability:)

I just switched from an Imco SC to an SCX , top and bottom , I lost about 4 mph ...but the piece of mind is worth it . this is a
27ft V bottom with about 850 HP

IMCO SCX Upper XR Lower or SCX?
 

Hello all,

About 50 hours ago I installed Whipple Stage 2 Superchargers to my 38 ft Donzi ZRC. The boat weighs about 8700 lbs. I recently blew up the port side drive completely and bent shafts and pitted gear on the other. I've made the decisions to go with the IMCO SCX uppers. I'm now pushing 825 HP each side. My plan today was to keep the existing Bravo XR ITS lowers with new shafts and gears to save a few bucks. Tonite I think I may be making a mistake and should also go with the SCX 1400 lowers. Any guidance is appreciated as I'll be making my final decision in the morning. I like to run it hard and it's super fast. Hopefully you will see the Shelby Blue Donzi ZRC at the Tampa Poker Run with the Whipple logo on the side. Thank you.

DJ

I did the swap from XRs to SCXs about 4-5 yrs ago now. Couldn't be happier. Lost some top end speed-Yes- Lost Boating Time due to fuked up drives- NO

I would allways go with an Driveguardian at this powerrates!
The XR lives then long i think.
They are wirth the money.
Michael

Hallett Fan,

Did you do both the uppers and lowers or just the uppers and redo the existing Merc lowers? That's my dilemma.

Tks,


DJ

Same situation. Just blew my first XR upper on my 38zx w/575sci putting out just around 700hp each. Not sure to just swap it for another XR and chance things, or cut to the chase and go with something beefier.

At Bravo anf much HP it would use driveguardian!
I am sorry that i am in germany,as i have an new from merc XR Sweptback Upper for sale for 3900 $.
Seacore version and with gurantee from merc.
Also a complett drive from it!
If someone have idea to shipp easy,this let me know!
I use now DG by myself. Michael
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...050ec89d5f.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...d089da95c3.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...2e09c362b3.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...7fc09f90d2.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...c535921cde.jpg

The Driveguardian is interesting for sure, but for the cost and effort the SCX seems like the more surefire and simple solution to the problem I have. The boat itself has had 3 sets of XR's in its 500 hours that I know of, about to be a 4th. Everyone says its a matter of when, not if the XR gears fail which has me ruling out anything that has them inside it. On top of that I know for a fact my engines make more power than the XR is rated for and are known to survive behind, so using them (or one based on it) seems like asking for trouble.

Truth be told, I'm still not certain if I blew the upper or lower, I find that out tomorrow. In either case, during the 45 minute ride home on one engine literally its very first day out this year, my dock in sight the entire time; I decided that at minimum I would be having both drives fully rebuilt or replaced new no matter what was wrong. I'm kind of kicking myself for not having this done along with the new transoms, engines, and everything else I did last year, but the oil looked clean and I took a chance going for another season. Back then I most likely would have just gone for another set of XR's and a prayer, now I'm almost fully decided against them.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...67b5a95e73.jpg
It took me about 5 or so rebuilds before I went SCX's. Couldnt be more happy.
Yes i lost some speed. but going almost 5 years with NO Issues was totally worth the cost. And with all the rebuilds I probably almost paid for them anyway.

Then you can do more of THIS ^^^^^:whistle:

The Apache is a nice touch!

How much speed did you lose with just the SCX uppers? I have spare XR lowers and planned to run the season with the SCX upper only but my shop is fairly convinced that I'll lose far more than 2mph in the uppers alone which sways that camp back to the rebuilt XR uppers and a prayer. I haven't gotten to really use the boat in 12 months, and am quite anxious. Turns out my uppers are not broken, I either took out the lower shaft, or the lower coupler. Now I question using the lowers but that is a whole other discussion.

The boat is a loaded 03 38zx, completely fresh 575's making 700 per side, almost on the dot. It has a genset, and a bunch of other luxury weight. It broke the lower just cruising and had a full tank when it happened. I don't want frequent downtime and although it seems I am just trying to talk myself out of it; the internet opinion is SCX, however locally anyone I would go to and trust to put it on seems to think that would be not worth the cost and speed loss. If I'm looking at 10mph losses thats a real bummer, but 2 plus I can drive it like I stole it on occasion seems like a good trade off.

02 semi stagger Lightning 700hp 575 SCi's
Went from -1 IMCO SC's to -4SCX's(blueprinted lowers, #6 shafts, 17" 5bl 35P props) and didn't lose any speed
Went from limping home on a broken upper every 100 hours or so to a few months of hard shifting(both drives) and metal on the drain plug(one drive) at 180 hours.

Took drives apart
Metal came from lower gear severely pitted-one drive
Hard shifting came from galled cone and cup-both drives. This was hard on the shift forks
New cones are lighter and don't fit the clutch shaft-needed new shafts
Propshaft seal surfaces were severely seal grooved-had them flamesprayed with ceramic
Drive pinion thread stretched when torqued to spec with brand new Snap on torque wrench-new inputs
1 upper drive gear had a few small pits

Parts list X 2!
all bearings and seals
flamesprayed propshafts
drive and driven lower gears
drive and driven upper gears
forks
cones
clutch shafts
input shafts
1 U joint each drive

History
Installed drives
Changed oil at break in time, 5 hours?
Both started leaking out input
Sent both inputs to IMCO and they replaced the seals for free(except shipping to them)
They continued to leak but only about a cup a season so I left them alone
Changed oil every 25 hours or more often if at end of season. Always pulled drives at end of season.
One time I noticed the drive guide screw was coming loose and gouged gimbal ring. Mentally irritating, functionally fine.
280 hour 700hp 575SCi's w/stock couplers and computers(rev limited at 5350rpm). One coupler has 480 hours.
Maintained well, driven hard but not stupid.
Very disappointed in the lifespan. The time and cost spent rebuilding these(along with the original installation) maybe should have been spent on Arnesons????
Gotta wonder!

Have a friend with same boat. 750+ HP and more RPM, Broke a lower, paid IMCO to fix it. Broke both lowers a year later. He's dealing with them right now. He's probably at 100 hours total time.

Dick Tryce/ Mr. Gadgets/ Dicks Performance Marine has hooked me up for drives and parts for years. He's great!
Thanks again Dick

Good Luck
Rob

If I am understanding correctly, you went from breaking an upper every 100hrs to needing to rebuild every 180?

The disappointment you have is understandable, I am just not ready for all that goes with the Arneson. I decided on the SCX uppers, and to sell my XR uppers before I actually break them again to offset some cost. Even if I need to rebuild the IMCOs every 150, thats something I can plan for and live with. Disintegrating the XR randomly anywhere between 0-80 hours over and over makes the boat a whole lot less fun.

Needing to rebuild every 180 hours is TBD at this point.
Maybe it was dumb luck that the lower started going away. The other side looked fine. I will say that the vert shaft lower bearing height was not what was spec'd on IMCOs spec sheet. Bearings shouldn't have changed it. I shouldn't have had to adjust it.
Maybe the lighter cones will help keep them from galling.
Maybe they'll last longer this time around, I can only hope.
Unlike the SC's, I always felt confident in them and they never left me idling back to the dock for 2 hours!
Any time I started to get overconfident in them I'd remember the old, stock couplers and calm down. lol

I could have saved one lower gear set and all the upper gears(polished cups and they looked decent, needed new brass rings though) except for the one drive gear with pits.
Forks could have been cleaned up.
The clutch shafts could have been turned down .004 to work
The bearings could all have been reused.
But, when flirting with disaster I did all I could to prevent it.
I have a lot of decent used SCX parts for sale.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...5d386aed07.jpg

lower drive gear
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...b08c67e853.jpg

upper drive gear

Sure thing, I was careful not to say "problems". All that goes with it, for me, in my current situation.

Here's the short of it: Due to several factors I haven't gotten to do more than 6 drive bys in 14 months. Over the course of those 14 months I've replaced everything power-train with new except the uppers themselves and just got it all back together a few weeks ago. I replaced, repaired, changed, and added a bunch of other stuff while it was apart. It was a labor of love and I'm just done messing with it for a while and want to drive this thing I've been pouring money into for over a year to remind me why I bought it. A few hours after the crate arrives from IMCO I'll be back in action. Same selection of props I've amassed, I won't be dealing with a completely different handling boat, and I finally won't be spending another summer dialing something in (hopefully) or undoing what was a real unexpected pain to get done the first go round. Has nothing to do with a problem I have with Arneson. I think it is extremely cool and if it truly added 10mph to my boat in addition to all the other advantages it provides over what I have currently that would be impressive for sure.

Had I known that AFTER I replaced the transom assemblies it would toast an engine, and then to discover the why and have to address that, and knowing now what a huge undertaking this ended up being, I might have planned differently. Unfortunately the end result of luck and my choices has me looking at a boat that I've replaced all but the uppers, and its fairly hard to say anything besides "fine" replace those too. Cost is a factor, and I'm pretty sure the Arneson kit x2 would cost more than the SCX upper and helmet x2. I thought I was at least making a respectable choice not taking another go with the XR's or anything based on it and choosing the SCX.

The Arnesons do/will/would give you roughly a 10 mph increase in both your midrange and top speed. This is the norm and there is no reason that your boat would be any different.

Setup isn't that difficult, certainly not a summer season worth of testing.

Handling will not be hugely different, it would dock better with the Arnesons and it would track and steer better with the Arnesons. These are facts from boat owners that have run the Arnesons/converted to Arnesons from the Bravo style drives. Rough water handling will also be improved over the Bravo style drives.

Propellers will not be the same as you noted on a boat your size (guessing it's a 38' Donzi) so that is a VERY valid concern.

Not to mention the extra cost, length it would add affecting my slip/lift and eliminating the ability to easily use the swim platform and ladder. And the fact that I would need to undo things I just finished putting together.

But if you're saying putting the Arneson setup on my boat will be as easy as swapping the XR's for the SCX's, and the total cost would be the same or within 5%, and the labor would be the same or within 5%, and I'll be back on the water 7 days from now, and you have someone lined up to pay me new price on all the 4 hour old stuff I just installed that will be unneeded with an Arneson conversion. and you'll buy it all back if its not as easy and as speed beneficial as you say... Plus I'm fairly sure I'd be the very first 38zx with Arnesons, which cool in itself, I'd rather not be the trailblazer with my own $40k+ on the line. So if you aren't willing to buy everything back and comp my labor if the end result does not end up being a 95-100mph, 14,000lb, 2003 38zx non-daytona I'm not really willing to chance it, and we should just leave it as that.

Look, I understand your product is great, so are others too, but I do not want all that goes with an Arneson conversion, for me, right now. Its a hassle for me, and you're not likely to convince me otherwise. Not your fault that 14 months ago when all I thought I would end up doing was a gimbal pin and an oil change I got caught up and already committed to a bravo style outdrive long before I fully considered all my options. Such is life, and my choices right now are limited to other uppers I can swap in place of the XR, so that I can enjoy this boat for a change.

Your right

Alright. I'm actually not trying to be rude here. I just didn't expect to have to defend or explain myself to a vendor in a thread specifically about another competing vendor.

I explained my personal motivations for not choosing the Arneson at this time, but I'm open to it. So if you would do me the courtesy of explaining to me the difference between installing the Arneson Bravo conversion on a new install vs an existing one. To quote your page on the conversion: "The #7M Kit is ideal for new installations where by you want a reliable high performance outdrive on your new boat. Installation takes just a few short hours and requires the use of a drill, and a few hand tools." This infers (and I believe I personally comprehend the reasons why after some research) installing during a new build up is ideal, but on an existing installation of a Bravo outdrive, there is more to it than a few hand tools, a drill, and a few short hours. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I stress that I mean that sincerely and not in the condescending way. If I am incorrect about your product I would like to be educated.

With that, I am also left wondering, why choose the "Bravo Conversion" at all? What is being converted on a new boat that is being assembled for the first time and has not had anything on it to that point? I'm sure there's some simple explanation to this along the lines of the "Bravo Conversion" essentially meaning "Universal" and less involved than most Arneson setups in some way.

I was just curious at first about your conceptions/misconceptions about Arneson as you mentioned them. I’m not here to sell you nor pressure you..

As for installation, the process is simple and I think after reading your post here there’s possibly some misunderstanding about our #7M Kits, AKA "Bravo Conversion Kits". They in fact 100% the same drive, same drive package/kit. There’s no difference between them in terms is what is supplied and priced. The kits provide all the necessary components needed to install the Arneson onto the boats, regardless of if your boat has an I/O or not as your will need all the components in our kits in order to install the Arnesons on to the boat. What this means is we do not require nor use any Bravo components on the conversion nor on a virgin install. What this also means is that you can/need to remove all Bravo and Bravo related components from the boat as they will not be reused with the Arneson installation.

Tools, yes you will need a drill and drill bit to drill the holes (via our drill template) for the Arneson standoff box. This covers your Bravo- I/O cutout and removes the need to glass the transom up as this is a major fear of most boat owners as they do not want to tackle fiberglass work. Once our standoff box is installed, the rest of the installation is “plug-n-play” so to speak as there’s no alignment, no configuring, no more external drilling required as everything bolts to, thru or via our standoff box including the rear engine mount. Honestly, without drinking a case of beer first, setting our drill template onto the transom and drilling the 10 stud holes does not take more than 30 minutes. However, we cannot ignore that the transom has to be cleared of the Bravo components first on a conversion vs nothing being there in the first place. There’s 8 studs on the Arneson and 4 bolts on the trim cylinder and 2 on the steering cylinder plus the 4 hose that need to be installed which doesn’t honestly take 20 minutes to accomplish. Outside of the boat is complete and time for more beer before tackling the engine installation.

“Most Arnesons setups” as mentioned are totally different than this as one has to mount the drive at the correct height, then calculate the trim cylinder positions and the steering cylinder positions along with the engine placement configurations and so on and so on. But those setups are not for boats that we are discussing here as “most Arnesons” are for far larger and more powerful boats than what we are discussing here. This makes our #7M Kit/Bravo Conversion Kits greatly easier to install than “most Arnesons”

I agree, that overall, the installation is basically simple and easy at its core. As your literature states: Ideal for a new boat. I do not believe I misunderstand anything in this regard, but you are using the term "conversion" quite broadly. I get the intent; If a bravo can go there so can this kit, but tossing out virtually every component relating to the Bravo makes the term "conversion" somewhat confusing and or misleading. Nothing about the Bravo is converted, it is discarded, the transom of the vessel is what is being converted by way of a common cutout and bolt pattern. If it reused the transom assembly, or some major component from the Bravo I'd feel conversion would be more fitting. Compatible seems more accurate to me as it stands. The kit and the design simplifies things immensely, totally agree with you there.

I'm not splitting hairs to annoy, but what the conversion entails for someone with an existing Bravo is a whole lot more involved than if there was nothing to begin with. You seemed to take some offense to the mention. Yes, I do not have to fill the transom which is a huge plus. I do need to remove my engines, or at the very least one of them and free up the other from the starting point I am in. Then I take everything Bravo off. Like I said and still maintain, for most of us who have a completely assembled boat using a Bravo, Arneson, beyond the cost, is a much more involved option than swapping out a weaker Bravo outdrive for a stronger model. That factor nearly carries as much weight as filling a transom does to me and I'd imagine I'm not alone in the opinion.

I love the concept but I also recognize that the Arneson drive is in a completely different class in all aspects.I did consider it heavily. It was everyone else who makes a Bravo style upper in the prelims, and that winner was then weighed going up against Arneson. 14 months ago when the boat had no transoms or engines installed I wish I would have known how things unfolded afterwards. I probably would have gone your way back then. The next time I freshen the boat I probably will.

Bravo conversion.... seems straight forward. CONVERT your boat from a bravo BOAT to an arneson BOAT. It's not meant to convert your bravo DRIVES into arneson DRIVES. But the boat itself

exactly!!!

Belli, respectfully your missing it here..

If I/we were using Bravo components it would be an "Adapter Kit" rather than a conversion kit as we are converting a Bravo equipped boat, as well as any I/O, over to an Arneson Drive. We are not converting a Bravo into an Arneson.. It's that simple and yes a new construction involves less as there's less to deal with already in place.

Your making it a big deal but didn't you already remove your engines to make repairs? Did you hold that against the boat, the drive or yourself? I mean your wanting to put a lot of shame onto Arneson when your already doing the same work and are happy or unhappy about it.

I'm not hiding anything.. Also not dodging blame for **** that is just part of boating either. I respect that you made a decision and it will either work out as expected or not and believe me there will be journey in the path to both results that a boat owner has to go through regardless of who's outdrive you choose. You just seem to know so little about the Arnesons and are negative when you spend $$$ and time with others and are not happy with the journey so far. We offer a one year warranty on the Arneson an the transmission we supply in our kit. Beat the **** out of it is what I tell customers as their going to do it anyways... That's how much we believe in our products.

Conversion, adapter, being compatible, the whole thing is a grey area. I get the point just fine. The entire classification is subjective. I could call a bucket of fiberglass and a piece of plywood a TRS conversion kit just the same.

I'm not actually making it a big deal or blaming you for anything at all. I'm choosing to engage you after I did my research and in the process saw numerous times when you assumed someone was shaming you or Arneson because they were considering something else, as you are now doing with me. Look what thread we are in, it's regarding your competitors product and yet here you are wanting me to explain my reasons for not choosing yours. You are shaming me, not the other way around Rik. I've praised your product and asked questions that help me or someone down the line understand it better. What shame or blame exactly am I placing on you or Arneson? Heck, I even avoided mentioning any specific downsides to the kit until you prodded me. Downsides I am correct about. Some may be specific to me, but most are universal. Next week when I am running the boat with the IMCO setup and posting feedback about that are you going to come in behind me and make it about Arneson again?

This all started because I dared to make the statement that I did not choose Arneson because of "all that goes with it". I think I made and make a solid point. You can simplify the installation of the Arneson onto a bare transom all you want, but in the real world most commonly you need to deal with the rest of the boat, preexisting hardware, engines, the outdrive system in there already. Forget about post install dialing in, or a transmission that fails prematurely requiring more labor to address than a failed Bravo upper. Your own literature states that this is "ideal for new boat installations" and yet you keep marketing it to used boat owners like me, and getting offended when they explain their reality in contrast to your own, seemingly shaming them for choosing something else because you insist installing your kit is barely more complicated or costly than swapping in an IMCO upper, and its faster. While your statement is mostly true, it is only true under a very specific circumstance which the majority of us rarely find ourselves in.

Again; your product is great. In my opinion the biggest issue with it is you want it to appeal to a demographic that it does not fit into very well and you take it very personal. That is not the fault of your demographic. Even in my circles it is abnormal for the consecutive upgrades I made to to my boat which did in fact at one time in the past make me a prime candidate for your Arneson conversion. The majority of us in the needing better outdrives situation are not buying new boats, we are upgrading existing rigging. I think there is some disconnect in your logic behind a new boat even needing to be converted from a bravo in the first place. Any boat out there already provisioned for a Bravo probably was rigged for one, therefore not a new install. In the case you are building new, why spec a boat all the way out to the point of a bravo cutout, and then go with something else? I'm sure it happens but I would think it would be rare overall. Perhaps its more common than I realize. The product you offer has an extremely limited market and I think the majority of those that would buy it do in fact have something in their boat already. You may want to consider that a lot more than you seemingly do before asking a potential customer to explain themselves to you again and telling them they have misconceptions when they do not.

Belli , I read your response to Rik's comment and I can tell you my personal experience is with 6 installs of the conversion kits , all but 1 was installed on used boats , 2 were TRS and 3 had bravo based drives

Thanks, this supports my belief that majority of the people who would buy the kit, are people like me, not new boat builders.

That being said, what kind of results did you see and what boats? Was a 10MPH gain the norm or the exception out of those 6? Any installation headaches?

To answer your question I only helped out on the installs of 5 out of the 6 , 1 was my boat and I did almost everything on that one ,The boats were a ZRC, Topgun, Scarab, Mares cat, 35 lightning, and a 29 Cary . The only boat that I think that I am qualified to answer questions about is mine the 35 straight bottom lightning I did gain over 10 mph but to be fair I could never really hold it wide open with out breaking the drive gears. The only down side I encountered was the lack of used props in the size I wanted to try in testing