Bravo 1 problems...help and tool list appreciated
 

I'm making north of 800 hp and running a bravo 1 on a 280 velocity (I know...asking for problems)

Anyway, I was out trying my new 32p bravo 1 and just got down making a high speed run to 5400-5500 rpms and after coming to a stop I put the boat in neutral and look around the engine compartment to make sure everything looked ok. I then go to slide it into gear and nothing. No clunk, pop or bump. Ok...... Lets try that again. Rpms drop from blower surge, slide into gear and nothing again. Ok, so we have no forward gear??? I tried reverse and it goes in like normal. It's getting late so I have no choice but to go in reverse....lol. I go for about 10 minutes and get passed by a 150-200ft barge. I stopped and tried forward one more time, but this time the lever goes about half way in and starts pulling forward and after a second it slides all the way. Well, I'm going faster forward than in reverse so I leave it and idle back 4 miles to a launch and had someone meet us to bring us to the truck. While my friend is leaving to go get the truck I'm tying the boat to the dock and all the sudden the boat starts to take off. I jump in and kill the motor. After that I got to the dock and waited for the truck and we float the boat on the trailer.

I don't know anything abuout the workings of an outdrive so I watched some videos last night and look at some schematics to try and figure it out or as much as I could without doing it. I talked with Eddie and soon found out I need a lot of special tools so I think I need to start getting some if I'm going to run decent power with a b1.

One thing to note, when I changed the oil it looked good and no chunks on the magnets. When I got home the lower magnet was clean and the top magnet had small chunks on it so apparently the upper is where the problem is.


Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated. If anyone has any leads on a new outdrive or tools to work on the outdrive I would appreciate that info as well.


Thanks

Found the problem. The bearing that sits below the clutch assembly came apart. Not sure what would cause that since this is my first time taking one apart. Everything else looks to be in great shape. Not chips or cracks in anything I can see.

I'm going to replace the bearing assembly and put it back together and give it a shot unless someone has any other advise. I'm trying to figure out a way to flush the lower unit. I'm not finding any pieces in the drive. Just little metallic micro dust in the oil.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/...045931E9C6.jpg

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/...04555443E0.jpg

I wonder if the blower surge didn't cause that by forcing the hub into the bearing as you shift into gear & the blower surging at the same time. Thankful it was something small & pretty much self contained. I guess it's time to start collecting bravo parts unless you can find something stronger and or better, XR upper or Imco SCX? Good luck & welcome to the next most expensive part of boating, Everything connected to the engine, LOL Randy

I don't think it's blower surge related because when I shift into gear it's at like 750 rpms and goes in very smooth. If it was jamming into gear I would agree 100%, but it goes in smooth and soft. No jolt in the boat or anything. I could be wrong though.


Problem I'm having right now is finding any info on my serial number. The only number on the upper I have found is VL187057. I'm assuming that's the serial number, but I haven't seen anything about that. I was told it was a new drive as of 2 years ago. It does look to be in good shape and not the same age as the boat, but who knows. Everything I've seen online shows it should start with OL from the vintage of the boat (98).

Any ideas?

There is no "V" In Merc's serial numbers! Serial number 0L187057 comes up as an MERCRUISER PERFORMANCE DRIVE BRAVO 1, 1.50:1 MERCRUISER - (BRAVO 1 H.P. (1998)
Serial No: 0L187057 Model No: 5C31200LS

Merc parts catalog part number 90- 809808 96 - BRAVO I/II/III STERNDRIVE AND TRANSOM ASSEMBLY
Here's your parts catalog,
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/selec..._nbr=809808+96

Service manual 90-174314 http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Servmanl/11/11covr5x.pdf

You should be able to repair top without needing special Merc. Tools. Just use a bolt for shift pin, if need to replace shift pin seal rig up a bolt and some washers. Take bearing stack apart and clean bearing, don't forget rolling torque on nut when putting back together. If replacing yoke seal look a depth as Merc tool sets a little lower than flush. It has to be in right place or yoke will cut into it. Get all the metal out or bearing will be short lived. Look at case real good and make no metal imbedded it self where it come out later. You must disassemble bottom and clean. If it was set up properly you may get away just getting a carrier tool. Take some time and check out the manual a lot of rolling torque stuff going on in there. Just take your time they are actually not that hard to rebuild. Any tools you have to buy will be a good investment, with a blower you will inside that again. Good luck, any question post here there are a quite a few guys here in this section that like sharing information on repairing drives, as you see. As you can see, someone has already looked your serial number on Merc. Net and posted the info you need for parts and manuals.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-A...item3f233ef8d5

Seller is 'whoya' on the board. Check out his other auctions for other tools he makes.

Boy you can't beat that deal

I believe he gives a 10% discount for oso members.

Well I changed the bearing out today and put it all back together and it seemed good so I took it out to try it. For on plane and everything was good. Made it about 3-4 miles (I guess) cruising at 3500 rpms when all the sudden it reved high and the bow dropped. I coasted to a stop and had no forward again!! Tried a couple times and nothing. Took me 2 hours and 45 minutes to get back to the truck in reverse. The motor ran good and didn't load up the whole time.

Anyway, I'm done for the weekend. I don't feel like messing with it again tomorrow. I'm assuming the bearing went out again?? Why?? Should that bearing be getting that much load?? Could the shift fork have a problem? It seemed ok, but then again I've never seen on before so who knows.


Thanks for the link. I'm going to buy that setup for those tools.


Open to ideas. Not sure why or what causes that bearing to fail.

Thanks for all the replys.

Sorry to hear about your troubles!

This is just part of owning a bravo based boat, stock is bad enough but with power ranges like you and I have we are just asking for it!

Just FYI, it doesn't take much metal on the magnets at all to show a problem. Anything more then basic "dust" and something is wrong. Tiny Tiny metal shavings the size of a wood splinter in your finger are actually bad.

If I only get 4 miles per drive then I have a boat for sale... lol

I have access to a xr upper, but it has 1.36 gears. Maybe I should look for a used bmax? I'm confused at this point because the upper looked good besides for the bearing that broke. After changing it and cleaning the drive completely I thought it was good to go. Apparently I was wrong.

What direction do I take here to have some piece of mind I will stay running for more then a day with out doubling the amount of money I have in the boat.

Thanks everyone.

CP,
the gears you have in your drive are the old style, thin floored gears. That damage to that bearing is typical. The top cover or race will wear and crack and then destroy the bearing. Another typical problem with the old style gears is the floor will break out of them. I am guessing that may have happened after you put it back together. Just a coincedence, nothing you did wrong on assembly. The only way to know is to go back in and look. There is an upgrade kit to replace the gears with the new style, thick floored gears. The old style cone clutch won't work with the new gears and the kit includes a new shift fork, etc.
With a blower motor, you should consider a steel tower and a good top cap. The XR drives have that, but XR upper gears are not as good as they used to be, so I tend to recommend staying away from the XR gears, unless you are snapping the teeth off the helical gears. If you plan to add more power or run trouble free, consider an SCX or Bmax in your budget.
You say you have access to an XR upper with 1.36 gears. On the XR's there is only one set of uppers, and the lower gears determine the final ratio. If your present drive is 1.5, the XR would bolt on and still be 1.5. When ever you swap upper or lower, you need to verify the oil passages from upper to lower to make sure they match.

Hope that helps.
Dick

That does help out and explains things a bit to me. I read many of your posts and was planning on pm'ing you so glad you beat me to it. I kind of felt the lower determined the ratio, but being new to outdrives I didn't question the guy. I can pick it up for a deal so I may get it to get back running in the mean while stock up some parts to build a decent b1 with the parts you recommended. I keep reading about steel towers for the uppers, but I'm confused as to what that could mean. Is it a steel collar that drops into the top case.

If you have a suggestion on where to find the best deal on the x gear package you referenced I would appreciate the info.

Are all b1 upper cases the same? Reason I ask is the threads where te spanner nut that holds the drive shaft pinion gear in are kind of ate up a bit, but I know where there is an older b1 upper a friend has, but I didn't know if the upper cases are the same and the gears are what changed.

Last question is this. When I took the upper apart I saw nothing in the cluster of gears that looked like it could be set up to individual persons likings/specs. The only real place I saw where you could custom tailer your build was maybe by shimming the pinion gear in and out to determine how far in or out the pinion gear rides on the two other gears. Is that a correct statement or am I missing something? I build drag bikes and cut many transmissions into complete overrides and there are many ways and places to smooth out te Trans and make them hold up better. When I had the cluster apart I didn't really see how that could be custom tailored.

Thanks for all the great info. I look forward to better understanding the outdrives and my best option to take with this boat.

The bottom of the upper case and the top cap have races pressed on what many call a tower. On the older stock drives those towers are made of aluminum, part of the case and part of the cap. The tower is milled out of the case and a steel one is threaded into the case. I have seen cracks after milling the tower out, that couldn't be seen prior to the removal. The tower I use, threads down into the case two inches. The Merc steel tower (in the X and XR/XZ drives) threads in, one inch.
The XR ribbed top cap has a steel tower threaded into it, I use that cap because it is well built and reasonably priced.
Setup on the Bravo is not difficult, just a lot of things to pay attention to. The gear stack spacing is determined by the shims below the thrust bearings. Gear lash is determined by pinion depth and the shims on bottom and top of the gear stack.
Not all the older upper cases are alike. You have to compare them to make sure the oil galley in the water transfer portion is the same. Older cases are thinner in spots, also. You can mix and match a lot, but you need to be careful of the differences.
A steel retainer nut will help clean up the threads on the snout, but if they are bad, then looking for another case might be an option. Shoot me an email (click on my OSO name) and I can give you more info.. Send some pics of the threads. Have you taken it apart yet to see what happened?

Have to run.. at the moment.
Dick

800+ hp and a 32 pitch with old style bravo parts = breakage, I have much better parts in my drive and it still wears/breaks quickly when I turn my 32 so I try to not load it that hard with tall props and turn a 30 labbed most of the time. Back when I still had old style gears, much less hp (about 650 or so back then) and stock shafts I switched from a 26 labbed that boat liked and had ran for quite a while trouble free to a non labbed 28 and broke floor out of gear almost immediately (within 5 minutes), it can be frustrating, good luck, Smitty

Thanks for the info Dick and Smitty.

I have not taken it apart yet, I plan on doing it this afternoon and will be sure to post back with any and all information I find.

What are your opinions on me picking up the xr upper my buddy has? Since he is wrong about it being a 1.36 since the lower determines ratio, would this be a better option while I collect parts to build a better drive? What visual ways can I verify that it is an xr drive?

Where can I get one of the steel retaining nuts?


Thanks

You guys are taking me to school here . I see some of this in my future also . The knowledge and help here is incredible , thanks from me too guys .

Have an update on the drive situation for those who may be following it. Got the drive apart and it did in fact break the floor out of the forward gear, but did not break or chip any of the gears. The boat is very easy to get on plane. It comes on plane at 2400-2600 rpms so its easy to baby the drive if I can get a set of gears to hold up. I'm thinking about going with a thicker floor gear and a any other possible modifications I can do to make the rest of the season. $14k+ isn't in the cards right now since I just finished this boat and went over budget with building this blower motor. It started out as a 550hp n/a build and turned into something totally different. Silly me....

If anyone has a lead or advise on better gears or other mods I'd appreciate the info.


Thanks
Craig

Here's a picture of the broken gear bottom.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/...7730724D29.jpg

Here's a couple pictures of the gears themselves. They seem to be in good shape except for the bottom blowing out.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/...7902E1C295.jpg

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/...7905D5C8F2.jpg

I think my bud is going to order a brand new upper with a one year warranty older style XR with the good gears from Coast Mar Exp (screen name) from the boards . That was a mouth full . Good price good guy . You must install a larger gimbel bearing with this upper due to larger drive shaft u-joints . You can contact him at [email protected] . He's from Boynton Beach , Fla . which is pretty close to you . He has them in stock !! Good luck brother .

Thanks for the info. Are the older xr's better? I see the new ones are swept back?

E-mail him for his phone # . Yes they have the better gears . The sweptback case was only for looks . He will give you the complete lowdown on these drives and give you a price for an upper that will put a smile back on your face !! Don't forget to tell him you are OSO .

Thanks