steering issues
 

very curious to know if anyone with factory installed, cable operated, power assisted steering, has had a complete or partial failure, in any FasTec hulls produced say between 2000 to 2008...

or has had a gimble helmet break, and seperate the drive from the transom assembly..

please feel free to PM if necessary, if privacy is a concern

thanx

We have a 2003 292 fastech that we had to have full hydraulic steering installed because of the steering slop from worn or loose gimbal assy. Full hydraulic is the only way to go.

how did just adding the hydraulic steering fix the gimble slop?

did the ORIGINAL cable fail?

how many hours before you did the upgrade?

thanx

I'm trying to think of a Fastech Hull that does not have external steering ? MF will know ....Not sure about your reason for the question...Trying to decide if it's really necessary? I know one thing .....it's the BEST improvment I have done ....m

In all my years as a Formula dealer,never had a steering issue at all,period,that was related to Formula.Many years ago Merc had an issue with the steering shaft in the gimbel housing,it was a Merc issue,not a Formula issue,Merc changed the design and eliminated the problem,but it had nothing to do with Formula.Many 271's, 292's,and some 496 353's had no Lathum steering,just regular Merc power steering,with mechanical cable, but aside from the fact that Lathum had better feel and better handling,I never had an issue,or any failure. I guess,I too, would respectfully ask,what is the reason for your question?

this is a 2006 353 with 496's that had mechanical steering cable, inner tie bar and external Latham tie bar... cable is visibly broken, steering wheel spins freely, and steering arm on one engine broke inside the gimble somewhere, not sure what broke first... one drive left the transom assembly as a result of a major mid speed spinout, but not a rollover, and resultant serious permanent injuries, no ejection... 109 hour boat.... it's now a bloody mess... steering cable was also replaced under warranty within the first 20 hours of operation, and before the boat was delivered new... VERY knowledgable multi Formula owner... not pointing fingers, just looking for any past instances, for reference to necessary repairs, or upgrades... we have heard before, and we are looking into the past Merc reference, for the steering arm issue.

thanx

Oh boy i feel for the partys involved:(

Somebody told me once ,that it is not ok to run a inner and outer tiebar !!!! He said it can crack the gimbal.

They press against the drives to much when steering or trimming.
Its always one or the other on a cable steering ?!

Just my 2 c.

[QUOTE=BUIZILLA;2719012] .. steering cable was also replaced under warranty within the first 20 hours of operation, and before the boat was delivered new... /QUOTE]


Dang ......sumthin's not right .....

this is very interesting, we also conclusively found that the departing drive appears to have had a cracked gimble for awhile... so the inner/outer bars creating a bind makes sense, and maybe explains the broken tiller arm.. the Latham tie bar is seriously bent, but that probably is the only reason the drive didn't go to Davy Jones locker... it's a big mess, i'll tell ya that... we have well over 100 detailed pic's, but due to the sensitive nature, i'm not going to post them, we just want to get to the bottom of it so it doesn't happen again, get the boat replaced, and move on... the USCG has been all over this deal, they actually quarantined the boat for their inspection for a short time, Formula has been notified, and seems very concerned, but the dealer/insurance/builder jerk his chain crap has started... we can't understand a cracked/broken gimble, broken cable, broken tiller arm, free spinning helm, all happening at one time.. the owner complained since delivery of a spooky handling scenario, even after the first cable was replaced, boat went back to dealer twice, dealer said it was normal, and he then bought on his own dime a complete IMCO setup a couple months back to be installed this month, it broke before that could be scheduled.. this owner is NOT a hot dog operator, speed is NOT a factor, quite the opposite, the accident took place between 2 idle zones in the Intracoastal waterway marked channels... he just wants honest answers from other owners, and a quick, safe, and fair resolution.

thanx

so curiousity gets the better of me. Who installed the external tie bar and when?

My 311 had a tie bar and the standard cable PS for 15 years without issue ....m

not sure yet, it was sold new this way though..

Stress is induced whenever the drives aren't trimmed exactly parallel.

By "inner tie bar" we're talking the standard piece connecting the starboard steering assembly to the port drive's tiller arm correct? I would expect the one bolt that connects that rod the starboard assembly to be the weak point. But it's possible the steel swivel shaft ends up imparting the most stress/wear on the gimbal ring when you have both int and ext tie bars and then trim the drives out of parallel.

What does it look like inside the cable steering helm? Something in there had to break in order to get a free spinning steering wheel correct?

the inner tie bar connects both tiller arms
the helm has not been dissected yet... in fact, the boat is totally intact, uncleaned, on it's trailer, and undisturbed right now awaiting teardown analysis (this is where the big jerkoff comes in)... the cable broke through the lining and wrapped itself up OUTSIDE the lining at the steering valve juncture... nobody has EVER seen this scenario of events but, clearly, somebody screwed up, definately NOT an owner/operator issue.... if he gets jerked around any more this coming week, it will be displayed for EVERYBODY to see at the Ft Lauderdale and Miami Boat Shows within his own vendor display for public opinion that's for sure, leftover bloody paramedics gloves and all, hopefully it shouldn't come to that, but he's getting REAL pissed off and he WILL do it if pushed... it's too bad to, it was a beautiful boat and he love's Formula's..

I ran my '89 311 with 650 h.p./600 ft.lbs. torque @ 80 m.p.h on Merc mechanical steering with a Latham external tie bar for years without any steering problems at all. It is not a problem and even highly recommended to add a external tie bar with this set-up if running in excess of 70 m.p.h.

The problem with binding mentioned is when two tie bars are both mounted externally, one from rear cap to rear cap (or top cap to top cap) and the other from the aft trim cylinder mounting pin. This combination is when the binding occurs.

It sounds like this problem started with the gimble ring. It was either a defect in the part or SOMEONE drove this boat hard on some rough water at some point in the boats history and broke the gimble ring. It probably snow-balled from there.

I had a friend that broke a gimble ring by running hard on rough water while over-trimmed trying to impress a girl. Fortunately, he caught it before it became a disaster like this case.

This is what happens when a gimble ring snaps. I honestly don't see this as a Formula-specific issue.

I just know that allot of people who had this problem, not ness.Formulas, toke the inner tiebar out and just ran the outer. never had a problem again.
The reason for leaving the outer and not the inner is because thats where most of the stress is when driving at high speeds.

Also everything over 65-70 MPH should have hydraulic steering anyways.:eek:

Again ,just my 2c.

I have to dissagree on that, since most of the raceboats run dual tiebars in the back and dont have any problems. ??!!

Maybe on the staggered set-up where the drives are close together ...? I have not seen many set up this way.

I very strongly agree with this statement.

I also dont think its Formula related, so you cant realy give Formula the blame.

It could be alot of things , cable manufacture issue, and on and on.
I would have hydraulic steering instaled and be safe.
Still sorry to hear that somebody got insured.

I run 2 extermal tie bars an my '89 with no bind as long as the are trimmed equally:cool:

Wow, that has to be unique to the repair. Either way, sorry to hear of the troubles.

The key to having two tie bars is perfectly parallel trim, regardless of where the two tie bars are mounted. It's a very simple concept that four rigid lines always need to form the same plane if there is to be minimal stress on the corners. With an external tie bar, two of those corners happen to be the upper swivel shafts in the gimble ring. Trim drives seperately, and the stress goes through the hinge pins and the swivel shaft.

This might be one of those rare multi-causal scenarios.

Just a thought here .... wonder if the Drive indicators were off?
You would think the drives were even all the time when in fact they would always place a strain on the Drive train. Didn't you mention that the boat handled strangly? Seems it have to be way out of adjustment to cause the kind of strain that could cause all the damage you have described ....m

If the gimbal was cracked first, no cable would hold up to the violence of the drive trying to depart the boat.

I would assume that Mercury gives Formula very explicit directions on how to install and rig the drives, and that Formula does exactly what Mercury specifies. My feeling is that this ball lies very much squarely in the middle of Mercury's court, not Formula's. Weak gimbals are a well-know fault of the Bravo design.

we've had some VERY interesting private feedback from other owners with like concerns.... seems to be a quiet hush-hush trend... might not be quiet any more...

Very little or no play should be there. When I bought my 292 it didn't have hydraulic steering, after about 100hrs, give or take, I noticed I was getting play, when it got to about 2-4", I had the gimbil repaired and hydraulic steering installed. Go back to your drives and see if you can move them by hand, side to side, if they move, then you have problems. Get them tightened up and steering installed. If you hit a wake the wrong way you could brake a gimbil and have a real problem, maybe even get hurt from the accedent that may happen. Not all fastech's come with hydraulic steering, they should though.

Until you go full hydraulic, you can still have slop in the cable helm. Once that starts to loosen up, the only fix is a new helm. My '91 had slop in the helm but the real kicker was slop in the inner tie bar. It was loose right at the one bolt that holds the bar together.

I don't know if I didn't say it or not, but I had FULL hydraulic installed. That is the only way to go.