John,

I really like this pic, boat is looking awesome!!!

Thanks...I think you and I have a weakness for the same "look".

No doubt,

Looking forward to meeting you on the water soon !!!

Me too...went by the shop in Ft. Lauderdale today...working out some Bravo Drive compatibility issues. I should get it resolved next week.

Update
 

Working thru SBC Cam Timing Gremlins. You would think that after a hundred million copies of the SBC everybody that touches these things would have the fundamentals down!!!

Never assume anything!!

Both engines are running but tuning is incomplete...stay tuned.

I have been watching for an update from you. I hate engine gremlins....

I thought the engines were run in on the dyno and you had spec sheets? What is up, timing off for your application? I remember reading up on that whole advancing or retarding the timing thing, what a pain. I take it they are on stands still? Post a vid please, I need a fix up here in the frozen north.

What carbs you running, ever get the holleys?

Brian

Check your PM...too much stuff for the thread.:lolhit:

fixx
 

when i spoke to john last week he said that the timing marks were all over the place...he needs another shim under the gear on the dist to keep the gear from going up and down..

Update
 

Finally got to the bottom of the problem.

... We still had an issue with what is being labeled the "Port" engine. No mater what we do, we couldn't get the engine to run consistently on all 8. No 8 cylinder is dead until we get to 1800 RPM then it kicks in. We checked everything...manifold gaskets, carb gaskets, put a kit in the carb, so on etc. Acts like a vacuum leak, adjusted the valves again and found that 8 was tight but not too tight. I asked Tommy Hoffstetter and another builder and we decided that it's retarded cam timing...that has manifested itself in to a high oil temp scenario also...after 30 min run time on the hose it showed 200* oil temp at the remote filter and at the adapter plate on the block...too hot on the hose with no load.

...so the original builder that I bought engines from came over Monday AM to take a look. He might have to pull all the externals off, put a degree wheel on the motor as well as a dial gauge on the rocker arms and set the cams up again....all on his dime (warranty).

So...we pulled the accessories off the front and checked the cam timing...it was spot on. I didn't say it but my mechanic did..."got to be the intake". Keep in mind this is a new in the box Edelbrock Performer Air Gap manifold. Off it came and replaced it with another just like it...put it all back together...
....and now it runs great!!!:evilb: No more hot oil...runs about 135~140* on the hose....must have really been leaning out.

This is a short video taken with my phone.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPztW7ilgwo&feature=youtu.be[/YOUTUBE]

I'll get some better video later....but we're moving quickly now.

Tommy told me that in his 25+ years of dealing with high performance engines this is the second time he has seen a casting sand hole in an intake manifold. It was on number 8 runner on the bottom of the intake over the lifter gallery. Go figure that I would be the one to buy an intake with a sand hole in it!!

This is why I suggest to always run engines before they go in the boat. I wouldn't dream of doing all of this with both engines installed!!

Holy cow, all that chasing and work, people double checking there work are it comes down to a manufacturing flaw in a good name brand product. I paid extra for my holley pump as compared to like the summit brand, and what do I get? A chipped magnet that causes it to jam and stop when it warms up stranding me on the lake three times. What a pain.

But like you said, at least you got it figured out before installing them in the boat.

Motor sounds great, what are you going to do with the carbs??????????????? :hijack:

Brian

Not to mention the labor hours and calender time required to do this.

Thanks, it sounded like a tractor before we solved this problem...now it sounds pretty decent There was a SBC in the shop that had a similar grind "flat tappet' cam that had a very choppy idle. Tommy told us the difference was the roller cam is much smoother at higher lifts and duration than a flat tappet cam... all things being equal.

I am ordering a pair of Quick Fuel 750 Double Pumpers to replace these. We can work a deal on the Q-Jets if your interested. I want to do some in boat comparison testing first though.

THEY RUN! Awesome to hear John. Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see her run. By the way, there is a 272 up my way... Give me a call.

I am interested and not in a real hurry. I want to work out what I am doing so I have a plan in place, but I will not launch the boat untill April at the earliest. Even that is pretty early around here. I can test fire the motors on the hose with what I have now, more concerned about when I launch it.

The comparison of the two on the water is a good idea, will be interesting. Of course if the results are too different, it could kill my interest and further hurt my pocket book.....

Brian

Yeah, quoting myself in YOUR thread, how vain. I was looking through old post and I ran across this post by me and laughed. When I joked about getting another 3/4 burb I really didn't think I was that serious, but I ended up with this:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h1...o/DSC01274.jpg

Both are 04's, 496's, 3.73 gears, 4x4, grey cloth interiors, damn near identical. First one I had has 136k miles on it, this one I just picked up with 63k miles. Tows the boat no problem..... Not as slick looking or nice as your new ride, but it does just fine. Plus the 1/2 ton keeps the milage off of these two.

Brian

Nice...can't beat a Suburban in my book.

OK...counting the days now. I'm taking the boat to Ft. Lauderdale Tuesday where the "Heart" transplant will take place.


When your involved in the restoration/upgrade of a boat that's been out of production for 30 years you celebrate your milestones one at a time.

Things to do:
Finalize last minute bilge wiring.
Install new style Bravo Steering ram.
Bolt in inner Plates.
Set up thru drive intake hoses.
Lower engines into bilge.
Install two Bravo I Drives.
Attach all cables and hoses.
Hook up the batteries.

I came within a gnats a$$ of dropping a pair of 500 horse 502's that came available to me. My friend Diego measured his 272 SR-1 with twin 454's today and his are 34" on center...mine are 32 1/2". I'm not re-building the transom on this boat to do it...the Vortec 355's on Bravo I's will carry this boat quite well.

I did find this one though http://www.onestopboats.com/vehicles...or-sale-103802 . A 1991 225 (obviously a typo...sic. 255) Formula Liberator with twin 454's and new transmissions (can you say TRS?!)
[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...psc9be03d4.jpg[/IMG]
The history buff in me wants to know more. If this is an original Twin 454 TRS 255 I would love to take a look. This may be the only one left in existence !!. A Very Rare Bird Indeed. If anyone in Minnesota knows of this boat and how to contact the owner give me a shout. it is at Ham Lake, MN.

If all goes well we'll be in the water with new power and new Bravo's in the next few weeks...then the focusing and tuning begins. I talked to Tommy Hoffstetter about props Saturday...he makes a very convincing argument for Herring 5 blade in 20" or 22" pitch. He built a 20' Sea Ray Bow Rider with a 600 horse 427 LS SBC on an XR as his "Sleeper" boat. He picked up 11 mph with a Herring vs a Mercruiser prop in the same pitch!! BTW...I asked him what the SR was like with that power. He said once you get thru the chine walk at about 75 it will go ahead and...use your imagination. I'm going to bug him for a ride in that one!!

I have had interest in this boat here on OSO with a fairly decent following. This thing kind of reminds me of the Project "X" '57 Chevy that Peterson publishing used as a test bed for all sorts of parts and pieces in the '60's and '70's. I guess old Formulas from the '70's and '80's are like the Tri 5 ('55, '56, '57) Chevy's were when i was a kid. They're strong, well built and the design has stood the test of time. Based on my experience with an '86 272 I can predict what this boat will feel like and run like with this power. The variable I can't predict is the effect the Bravo Drives will have on the whole package. We will soon see.

I'll keep the camera handy...this one's been a long time coming!!

Had a set back today...
 

...found out one of the Bravo I drives I bought on the Swap Shop here is a "Case full of junk" according to my drive guy. So I'm looking for another pre sweptback Bravo I. Shouldn't be to hard to find down here but damn it all... getting screwed stings like Hell!!

I'm a budget boater and every dollar that goes into the boat came from not doing something else!!

UPDATE...Motors going in!!
 

I pulled the 255 down to Ft. Lauderdale to get the engines installed. Next time it comes home it will be ready to go boating!!

Kudos to Willy and crew at All American Trailers in Pompano for the great job they did building and rigging the trailer for this boat. Behind my Escalade ESV at 70~75 MPH it pulls a smooth as silk. No sway...no drift...tracks straight and true and the brakes work great.

As I pulled up to the shop in Ft. Lauderdale to receive the engines I was beaming with pride considering all the favorable looks and comments this old 'Bird got as I pulled up. "Holy Crap....twin Vortecs with Bravos in a 25 footer?"

I just smiled and said..."That's the plan":cool:

Pumped to see things moving John! Sorry to here sbout the POS who sold you the B1

Way cool! About like being 10 yrs old on Christmas eve when you're that close to splashing a true labor of love.

That 255 w/big blocks would be fun to snoop through.

BTW, on your Sea Ray story, I was in the owner of Hydromtovie Propellers office several yrs ago and he has an ancient 8 x 10 on the wall of a probably late '70's or very early '80's 18' Sea Ray hauling the mail. Perfect attitude of attack and only the prop in the water. I think he told me twin turbo power and had it in the 90's. Think of what a sleeper that thing would be especially back in the day.

Sorry to hear you got screwed on a lower unit. Been there, done that.

Hurry up w/the pix's of it in the water.

Thanks for your thoughts. I feel like I'm running in a circle with my shoe nailed to the floor trying to get this rig moving.:lolhit:

I can relate.
 

My Sonic just about broke me.Disaster after disaster.
I actually dropped the damned thing about 3' when unloading it off the trailer, upside down. Deck was prepped for paint until then.
I seriously considered a quart of gas and a lit match that night.

Or the day I was ready to start blowing paint until my black, harbor freight air hose kept exploding from the Florida sun. Every time it did, it blew dirt all over the boat. Repair the hose and re-prep the boat. Did that, I think 3 times in one day.

How's everything going John? Any updates?

Nothing new...waiting on show and Poker Run to clear town so everybody can get back to work on non exotic boats.

Gotcha. Wish I was home to go check out the show. Can't wait to get over to that one.

So I was with my mechanic checking a few things out today and i really started looking at this boat...especially the Free Board. I crawled up into the cockpit looking at the transom, the bulkhead between the bilge and the cockpit and the distance between the cockpit sole and the gunwale. We both were looking at the same thing and we looked at each other. Then it hit me like a flash...
Flush out the cockpit sole and take it almost all the way to the transom. Build out the area below the short rear deck and take advantage of 5'~6' more cockpit room!!

The 255's have enough depth and free board that the engines can be below the cockpit floor!! I could then have an access hatch in the floor and a lounge/couch all the way across the rear of the cockpit.

This is really simple stuff and if I set it up correctly I will have 15' of cockpit from the forward bulkhead/helm to the transom!! That's like having the cockpit room of a 35 footer.

I could even set the rear couch up as a fold out that would make the ultimate sun pad/lounger!!:evilb:

I could even take the rear couch out if i wanted and fish out of this thing!!! Damn!!!

The wheels of innovation are turning!!

Stay tuned

While I applaud your innovation and ambition, that thing needs to hit the water!!!! Stop finding more projects!! Lol, good thoughts John!

Oh it's going in the water before that stuff happens!! There is a load of goodies coming out of New Jersey over the next few days that includes my one missing drive that I need...then we go.

I like the way you think about changing the boat layout. After cutting the seat back out of my 272, I am getting more ambitious to make changes....

Brian

Damn John. That sounds like a good bit of work. We fish from mine occasionally but I refuse to mount rod holders. Hahaha. Do it mostly for the kids.

Not that big of a deal actually. I just need to frame out an opening with structural aluminum, cut a hatch from Starboard, then re work the rear couch to fit in the back.

Ambitious. Can't wait to see it. I know your dying to splash this thing though. You have done an awesome job with it. When ya expect to sea trial the new set up?

Ambitious? Naw.

It's just a mechanical engineer thing........ :whistle:

Brian

Brian...I knew you would get it!! It's FREE floor space. This pic show what the boats from the mid '70's looked like.

[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...psb37edcff.jpg[/IMG]

This arrangement frees up a lot of space. Of course I will certainly up date the design but you get the idea.

Family Resemblance
 

Wow....I wonder where john Adams at Formula ever got the inspiration for the 255 Liberator?? Hmmmm....

[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps885538f3.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps3bfedf94.jpg[/IMG]

the "Family" resemblance is "Amazing":evilb:

One thing many boats of today fail at, is offering a place to hang out. Yes, many seem to get the place to "Hang On". But boating is also a leisure time sport, meaning most of the fun happens either at idle(raft ups, marina, wherever), or generally between 30 mph and 60 mph. It's sure fun to blast around.

But what about afterwards? I love that darn Liberator, and I wish I had never seen it :lolhit:

Yeah I know...it just won't let go...!!!:cool:

I have made the point several times on this site about the design of new offshore boats. Wow, two bolster seats in front of a rear bench again, that's innovation.

My old boss had a 377 Scarab that was not staggered. It had a cockpit similar to the 34 scarab III with a bench behind the side by side bolsters. the rear bench was actually L shaped and the boat had a lot of cockpit space. You know, the area that people spend the majority of their time. Other than a Baja with a large cockpit, really haven't seen any others.

I looked at a 30' S scarab before my formula. If I had bought it, I was going to make the rear seat lift up like some newer boats I have seen so I could move it back about 2'. Right up against the engines, but with the seat up you could still work on them. Well, I didn't and when I bought my formula, I considered doing it with that untill I saw that the floor was not flat. It transitioned at the start of the rear bench so any changes there were would a dramatic project. Still glad I cut the back of the seat out, really opens it up and changes things.

Sprink, I like the idea of moving the bench back. It looks like yours is all made from plywood, not the molded glass that my 272 is. Makes it easier to change for you. Make sure when you do that to document it with a lot of pictures. Talking about that, I need to take more of my removable rear seat project as it progresses and update my thread also.

Brian

Brian...I will document it. The F-26 Formula that was built for about 15 years in the 70's and '80's had a flat cockpit floor and the rear seat was removable. You can walk to the transom.

[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...9/DSC_0284.jpg[/IMG]

Check the Free Board on this one

[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...DSC_0269-1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/w...C_0267copy.jpg[/IMG]

A friend of mine bought this boat and put a pair of 375 horse Yanmar Diesels in it on Bravo III Drives. He is spinning 28: props on the Bravo III's and runs 50 MPH at 3000 RPM. Fuel consumption at 40 MPH is about 30 GPH TOTAL!! He has a 8 KW Diesel Gen Set with A/C. He has been to Free Port 3 times with it....very reliable. It has a 10' beam.

Oh...Brian... another Mechanical Engineer... OK!!!:lolhit:

Wow, my 272 LS looks very similar to that 28ss. But I wonder about the stats on it. It is supposed to be 8" longer with the same 8' beam as the 272. Big blocks with TRS drives and the required transmissions and they list the net weight at 5,000 pounds? Oh, and an 18" draft?

Seems pretty light.

Brian