Tyler, I’m using Crane long-body lifters that work with the factory dog-bone guides and retainer.

No real updates to share... just waiting on some parts to come in. Machine shop is a little slow, too.

Just keeping the thread up-top.

Some updates...

One short block is together. .030 over with factory crank, Eagle rods, and 4.50 SRP pistons that are .012 in the hole. The other block is at the shop getting the same treatment.

I changed direction with the cams. I sold the 500 EFI cams and picked up a set of hydraulic rollers that Rookie had for sale. 235/241 @ 050, 647/647. These will be a better match for my AFR heads vs the 500 EFI cams

Heads... kind of a mess but getting through it. I got a very good deal on them, but finding that they really do need a good amount of work. I’m replacing exhaust seats on both sets, and to clean up the decks, they’ll probably need to shrink down to 112 cc chambers. Ouch. I was hoping that I wouldn’t have to go that far, but they’ve been decked before (one set measures at 114 cc and the other 115cc). Compression will come in between 9.3/9.4 using a .039 gasket. I think we’re still doable with 87/89 at this point, though honestly I’ve contemplated selling these and buying a set of EQs so I could avoid the complexity of closed cooling. Oh well, it’s only money and this is what I love doing. They’re going to be beasts when done.

In other news.... steadily making progress on the Bullet. One engine is wired with the other not too far behind. I’m waiting on some fuel fittings that were backordered to come in and need to wire the ignition boxes. The wiring harnesses for the boxes will done using weather-pack connects so those will
be nice. And the hydraulic steering made it in over Christmas.

I’m not sure my neighbors appreciated having a boatyard on their street... so far no one has complained. That might change when the Bullet gets fired up!

Hope everyone is getting a nice start on the new year.

I wish we lived loser, I would love to learn/watch/help with this project.
Tom B.

What amount of quench are you shooting for? I believe if you focus on that your dynamic compression shouldn't be as much of an issue.

I wish I had seen this thread before your block work was done.
If your squish height (clearance between the piston quench pad and the head) was .036" to .040" you would have no trouble running 87 octane with 9.8:1 CR with a 741 cam.
Having your pistons .012 in the hole pretty much kills your ability to induce enough "quench turbulence" to benefit you unless you run .027" Cometic MLS head gaskets (since you are closed cooling, I would probably go that direction if it were me).
The difference in running .036" squish vs anything over .045" is amazing regarding how it suppresses detonation and allows you to run optimal timing with lower octane fuels. It shocks me how so many machine shops choose to ignore this fact.

Here's what I come up with on your combo.
SRP 4.500 pistons with -3cc dish
112cc heads
4.540 gasket ring diameter
.012 in the hole
.039 gasket thickness
RESULT 9.51:1 with .051 quench distance.

Here's what I recommend
.027" Cometic MLS gasket - 4.540 diam.
Same everything as above
RESULT 9.74:1 with .039 quench distance.

You will NOT regret it.
Your cam specs also point towards a need for additional compression vs the 941. It's all a bouncing ball... One thing affects all the others...

There are plenty of guys out there fighting detonation, pulling out timing, searching for higher octane in order to keep their mismatched motors happy.
Then you've got a few really happy guys out there making great power on crappy pump gas with surprising compression ratios. ALL of those guys are running "tight squish" motors.

Mopar 440's in the horrible 1970's smog era were notorious for being knock-happy with traditional hop-up modifications.
They all came from the factory with pistons almost .200 in the holes. Dropping closed-chamber heads on them to bring up compression resulted in pinging knocking turds that required race gas to make it down the road.
The other option was to put big domed pistons in them (still .050 or so in the hole) which provided another knocking pinging turd unless race gas was used.

Past handfull of years, we have been playing with RB Mopars (440's) and setting them all up with .036 squish.
We've got a 509 aluminum head stroker set up at 11.3:1 with a 265 @ 050 cam that we can't make ping with 91 octane - and it's a snappy, responsive, happy beast.
We've got a 440 aluminum head set up at 10.5:1 with a 235 @ 050 cam that is the same story - AND on 91 octane, it PREFERS the timing to be set at 20 initial, 40 total, and 58 vacuum (cruise).
Chevys are the same story - set em up TIGHT and you'll never regret it.

Smokey Yunick devotes an entire page in his book "Power Secrets" to quench. His guideline is .040" for all around performance in a 4" bore engine. Maybe add a few thou for 4.500" bore but sticking to a quench that significantly increases turbulence will greatly help with knock/pinging. I'm sure someone smarter than me will have more to add along with what mcollinstn has stated which is great info as well. Double check your piston rock and if all is well go with the .027" cometic.

Thanks guys. I appreciate all of the advice and guidance.

I had gotten myself all wrapped around the axle regarding the heads and compression that I totally spaced on the fact that quench with the pistons still deep in the hole was going to be an issue. Interestingly, I was thinking about this last night and the light bulb was starting to go off while going through the math and looking at head gaskets.

As it comes together I’ll get it right. I’m not in any hurry to get them done and they will be right and dyno’d properly.

I need to go back and reread everything what was posted.

Again, much much appreciated!

Ordered everything for the bottom end of the second short block this evening.

I’m holding off on head gaskets until I have final measurements. But I have pretty much everything else in-hand.

Cant’t wait to get on the dyno to see what they do!

Any guesses? My buddy Wayne is thinking 580-590. I’m thinking 625.

??

** they’ll be dyno’d with CMI spit tops, etc.

Don't get too hung up on dyno power numbers. I like the dyno for finding problems that can be remedied before you take all the time to reinstall them in the boat. I think you will like your gains when you see what it runs after getting it dialed in.

I hear ya. I really am more interested in how she runs vs power. The numbers are really just a poke back and forth between me and my buddies here.

Coming along...

I went to look at my heads today. They’re in good shape and will clean up nicely at 112cc. Guides are good. A valve job and finish mill and they be ready for engine one.

Then onto engine two.

I’d say we’ll be all together by mid-February. Then off to the dyno.

[QUOTE=TomZ;4772955]Coming along...

I went to look at my heads today. They’re in good shape and will clean up nicely at 112cc. Guides are good. A valve job and finish mill and they be ready for engine one.

Then onto engine two.

I’d say we’ll be all together by mid-February. Then off to the dyno.[/QUOTE
I can’t wait for the first water test video. It’s going to be a rocket ship Tom.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...3fe599844.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...9dcef3039.jpeg
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Here are a few bad pictures of the heat exchanger that I mounted on the forward bulkhead instead of engine mount. I built out the bulkhead to strengthen it for secure fastening. I have since painted the bulkhead and added a catch can.

[QUOTE=ph1971;4773099]I hope so! I guess I may need to start looking for spare RH drives.

Roscoe, these are great! Much appreciated. The ones I’ve been looking at have a two part tank (expansion?). Kits that are out there seem to use these (the one you have) with remote expansion tanks similar to yours so I think I’ll start going in that direction. New, these are not that bad price-wise but I’m keeping my eye out for used just the same. Very helpful!

I’m sure your rigging will be much neater than mine. Ha... I just wanted to show you what I did for $200 plus hoses and clamps. It’s great to know salt water will never touch any of those hard earned internals. Many of the heat exchangers have the Siamesed expansion tank and eliminate the need for a puke tank. I added the overflow because I was pushing some coolant out beneath the cap on hard runs. I replaced the rad. Cap at the same time and haven’t lost a drop since so I think my cap was the issue. I needed more crap in my crowded bilge anyway. It’s not sexy by any means but it sure works. Keep up the good work Tom

Now I am watching you guys do heat exchangers...and its got me thinking! Tom B (not Z).

It’s super simple Tom B. I would never have been without it if I had known how cheap and easy it is to install.

I was concerned that it was complicated, takes up space and would not support 600 hp big blocks...but it looks like those issues are moot. I have been religious about installing and using flush kits...https://www.diamondperformanceparts....roducts/295-50

Some progress...


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Short-block is together!

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One set of heads picked up today...

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:nicethread: Nice work!

Thanks Tom. Not a lot to see. Things are coming together though! I now need to order head gaskets and stuff for the top-end. I’d like to get the heads on by the weekend so that I can measure for pushrods. We’ll see if that happens.

I didn’t realize that you were using the Mini domes. What is your final CR going to be? Those anodized heads are going to be sweet and flow like mad. Looks great!

Compression is going to come in right at 9.6 on this one. With tight quench she should be good on whatever fuel goes in the tank. We'll dyno on 87 and 91.

The heads are really going to make these things run. They needed some clean up on the decks to fix some corrosion. In the end we took them down to 112cc and gave them a nice valve job.

I got these heads for a song (thanks James!) but thought they'd need some real money to be brought up to spec. Come to find out, the springs on the heads were pretty weak (AFR/Pioneer blue stripe). I was replacing the springs anyway, but when I tested them here at home out of curiosity, I was getting about 100lbs or so at installed height (lowest of 98lbs, highest of about 105). These were being used on a blower setup with a 741 cam. Originally, I thought we'd have to replace the seats due to weak material (discussed by others using AFR heads elsewhere here on OSO), but the seats had good materiel left and instead appeared to be eroding from the valves bouncing around hence just needing a valve job. My springs, Comp 933's, are right at 170lbs at installed height so I think we'll be good for at least a couple hundred hours. Time will tell.

I'm excited to see what they do!

Double checking camshaft timing...open and closing events and centerline method dead on the money!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...4d1b8e463.jpeg

Time to out the timing cover and pan on.

Nasty.... just to put it out there... I hate cleaning oil pans. It’s like the worst job.

In this case.... I had about a 1/8-inch of silver-gray mud in the bottom of the pan. I’m guessing that’s why the oil drain hoses were not working. This also means that a ton of crap collects at the bottom of the pan if you’re changing oil via the dipstick tube so take note... if you change oil this way, you’re leaving a quart of nastiness behind in the pan.

Sorry, no pics of the afterbirth, I mean, sludge.

Side note... this engine had no signs of any engine damage so the sludge is just that... twenty some odd years worth of gunk.

I have found the same thing in oil pans with far fewer hours than yours. Even with an oil whip from the drain hole you don’t get the sediment out. I think it’s obvious that the flame arrestors that we run allow a lot more micro particles to enter than atypical automotive filter. I haven’t found “sludge” , but definitely fine non-magnetic grit in a meticulously maintained low hour engine. You look to be on your way to home plate now Tom, and as usual you’re dotting all of your T’s. That’s a burley piston stop dude!

Yep! That stop is stupid! I made it from scrap. If I come across any 12-inch bores, I'll be ready!

I got the pan back on it tonight and now ordering head gaskets. $96 a piece at Amazon!

And agreed. The engines really suck up some stuff. Just because they're running in enclosed engine rooms doesn't mean they do not pull in debris from the air. I've used K&N in the past, but the cost vs benefit has been proven to not be there so Gaffrig it will be.

The piston rock is making things difficult to get nailed down. We followed JE’s recommendations for piston and ring clearances, but this introduces a good amount of rock at TDC. Tightest is right around .004 with the deepest about .018. Averaged out, I come up with .0105 (let’s call it .011). Those measurements are combined averages including rock at the intake sides and exhaust sides. If I measure at the wrist pin flats. I come in at .012 as an average. I know the piston will expand thus eliminating some rock and that rock really is greatest on the power stroke anyway. The head-scratcher for me... should I focus on the average numbers or should I focus on the absolute minimum measurement? I’ve probably answered my own question based on how I explained (expansion, rock on power stroke, measurement at the writ pin), but I’d like to know how others are going about it. I want quench to be good, but I also don’t want pistons crashing into the head at 5600.

I’ve held off on ordering head gaskets because of this. The .027 Cometic with the wrist pin measurement goes right at .039 and .038 at the averages. Taking minimum clearances, it ends up at .031-.032. That’s too close and would make the .039 Fel-Pro a safer choice. But the averages put the clearance over .051 (minimizing quench benefits).

Lastly, how important is all this with AFR’s very efficient chamber? I’m not running old GM heads.

What do you guys think?

Any thoughts on engine colors?

Currently, the one short block is gloss black. The heads will remain anodized and I'll probably spray some clear on the exposed areas (once all the MPI brackets go back on, and the heat exchanger is sitting up front, you won't see much anyway). I was thinking staying with black including the intakes. My valve covers are Merc blue. One of my intakes is Merc blue. Maybe pulleys and intakes Merc blue to match valve covers? I had also thought of bringing in some of the boat's Palm Beach colors, but not sure I want to do that.

Any thoughts or pics to add?

I don't believe the efficiency of the chamber means squat if you don't get the quench right first. I think you are on the right track, hopefully someone smarter than me has some definitive information to help you choose the correct thickness gasket. I wouldn't order up a set of .039's just yet.

Thanks Tyler, I hear you regarding the chamber.

I'm going to post this up in the tech forum to see what sticks.

I should rephrase my reply to mean that if the quench isn't nailed down then the chance for knock is going to be much higher thus requiring less total timing and higher octane fuels which really starts to go against what you are trying to accomplish. When I think of chamber efficiency I tend to first think of max power at least amount of timing. Thats why those LS engines are so amazing, they don't require **** for timing and make awesome power and seem to be fairly efficient.

I don’t think you have anything to worry about with regards to piston to head interference. I’m would check piston to valve with some clay and pick a gasket that gets you closest to your target CR. The aluminum heads are great for heat absorption and providing a little buffer where detonation is concerned so you will have some forgiveness on those cylinders that measure slightly closer to the top. These things are going to make great power and there isn’t anything wrong with going a bit safe if you feel like you are close.

Thanks Roscoe!

I posted a question about quench and clearance in the Technical forum that’s just starting up. There was a suggestion of using solder to check. I’m thinking. I’ll bolt a head on using a .039 as a control (it’s been handled plenty during the surfacing on my heads so not worried about it getting messed up). I have some .090 solder that will tell the tale with the .039. Fro. There I can judge a safety margin. Sounds like a pain to do all this, but for me it’s interesting... any reason to get out to the garage is fine by me!

Scotch doesn’t help with replies. FYI.

Caught the virus this week. I'm winded by the time I make it downstairs to just get a drink so everything is on-hold until this passes. Was making great progress too. UPS keeps delivering parts so at least they're making it here,

Crap...I hope you start feeling better soon! Stay strong!