TRS tranny woes
 

TRS Tranny woes (Post #1)


I picked up my Formula 357 Friday from South Austin Marine for our first lake weekend. At least it waited until Sunday afternoon to do this:

I was running around 3200 rpm when I felt a loss of power and saw the starboard tach hit the ceiling. I shut it down and discovered I have no forward on the starboard engine. It still works in reverse. I limped back and put it on the trailer.

I'm running blown 454s and TRS drives with Merc trannys (I think they're the mercs). I spun the props by hand in neutral and the starboard prop was much harder to turn than the port.

So, is this my tranny for sure? Assuming it is should I try to replace both or rebuild the one? Any opinions?


Thanks in advance guys.


Brent

Most likely it's in the tranny, that about the only thing that would cause the engine to rev up like that. Once you shut it down, sounds like something (metal) clutch plates, something is now binding which is causing the prop to turn harder in neutral than the good one. The Borg Warner units are stronger than the stock merc units, and as your running blown power, it would probably be a good idea to upgrade both if you can. Just my thought anyway....

P.s. what kind of speed were you getting with what HP?

There is a good chance if you are running that much power through a Merc Tranny you busted the oil pump in the front of the tranny. The Merc Trans was not meant to handle that kind of power. I would make sure that they are in fact Merc Transmisions. The easy way to tell is to see if they are bolted to the Transom Assembly. If they are not then you have Merc Transmisions. If they are then you have Borge Warners and you can make them handle a TON of HP. Good luck, you may want to upgrade if you have Merc Transmisions with that kind of power.

Jon

Okay first thanks to everyone for your input. I took the boat to a mechanic near the marina and first off I do have the B/W trannys. That's good. Secondly, he said he thought the trannys were fine. Good also. Now the bad news - it's the starboard outdrive. He wasn't 100% but siad he was pretty sure. The tranny fluid smelled fine and you can really the binding in the outdrive when you turn the prop by hand. The dipstick on the srarboard (bad) outdrive was barely showing any fluid at all. So, I pulled the port (which still works flawlessly) and it too was barely showing any fluid.

I ran the boat about 1 maybe 2 hours after picking it up from South Austin Marine (SAM) where they did a full outdrive service (around $340 per side). On the port side (that still runs perfectly) I spent another $800 or so for new gimble, etc. etc. as the port side was a lot older then the starboard. When they serviced the starboard side they said it looked like new inside.

So, I brought it back to SAM and Brian assured me that if it was anything they did they'd take care of it 100% but his Merc guy is out untuil Monday. I wanted to stay and drain the fludin to see what it looked like and how much metal was in it but I had to get back to work.

Opinions - do they have any liability? I wrote them a check for $2000 for the outdrive service and some various other service and less than 2 hours later the drive fails. Or, are they just going to say I'm way over powering the drives and that's what happens?

IMO if the fluid in both drives is way low (as it is) then someone screwed something up. Either they didn't vacuum test it or forgot to refill it or someting. I never saw any oil slick around me and it didn't puke it out in the bilge.

Sorry for the long post. Just had to rant a bit.

Thanks again for the support.

I would think it very suspicious if the fluid was way low. I mean they're not supposed to be run way low. Were you present with them when it was discovered the fluid was real low? That may or may not mean something. (now that sounds smart doesn't it? :rolleyes: ) I would think that they should take at least partial if not full responsibility for the unless their was some major mechanical failure, but then again that could have been caused by low drive oil. It will be interesting to see how they step up to the plate. Keep us posted for sure.

Outlaw - Yes, they did see that both drives were very low on fluid and I questioned them on it. They were very apologetic and assured me that if it was their doing they'd take care of it 100%. Of course, with blown 454s and TRS drives I know they're going to tell me I'm overpowering them (which I am). I have less than 550 hp so I thought they'd hold up. They held up for about 90 hours with the previous owner and the same power. I guess I just got it at the wrong time.

I hate to say it but I am seriously considering selling the boat before I get much farther into it. I got a great deal on it and would take a bath for a few thousand but it wouldn't be that bad yet. I hate to get deep into my pockets over this thing.

I wouldn't be so worried about it except I just spun a bearing in my Cobra. So, I'm building a new engine for it and figured it was a great time to change from a cent. supercharger to a Turbo. So, I already have a major engine project going on. If I didn't have that I wouldn't be worried about the boat. Too many projects. Not enough time / $$$.

However, every cloud has a silver lining:

We finally came up with a name for the boat (assuming we keep it). The wife and I had been tossing around ideas for a while. Sunday before the drive went out the wife and I were cleaning the boat and as I was fixing the switch for the engine cover it came to me. I thought, "this thing is just another project." So the name: "Another Project" I told the wife. She laughed and said it was perfect.

I would think that a Borg Warner equipped TRS drive could handle 550 horsepower as long as you weren't constantly "hammmering it" from a start. I know guys with stock Bravo 1's running that horsepower that get by with them by just realizing what the limitations are. Once the boat is up and going the drive isn't taking the beating it does pushing the boat up on plane. One guy has a 38 Top Gun and he's making about 525 hp each side and no problems in three years. He's just religious about changing the drive gear lube and does not try to impress anyone "drag racing" from a start. While the TRS drives do have some liabilities in compared the the Bravo 1, (weight, extra room required for seperate trans, more hydrodynamic drag) they will handle more power, especially the B/W units. As long as you drive the boat with reason I wouldn't worry about the drives not handling the power. It is very very possible that age just finally caught up with it. I had the same problem (age) with one of my Bravos last summer. Hell, I'm having the same problem with age with me.:rolleyes: If the guy was apologetic, and he saw the drive oil was unacceptably low, I'd say worst case scenario, no matter what the problem turns out to be, is he split it with you even. HOWEVER, I would be hard on his ass to cover the entire problem. AND I MEAN HARD.
IF he tried to duck the issue. Good luck. I got a feeling you'll make out ok on this one.

I had an alpha outdrive serviced one time, then took the boat home for winter storage. For some reason I checked the lube level ... there was none. Took it back and showed them. The guy about filled his drawers. Yes - he forgot to refill the lube. He wanted to kiss my feet for noticing before he had to eat the cost of replacing an outdrive.

Your B/W TRS should easily handle 550 H.P. Sounds like someone screwed up!

I'd probably offer to eat the cost on parts if he eats the labor, and make sure it's his cost, not what he's charging for them. Once you have them done, I think you'll have a very reliable rig.

First off shame on your for not checking your fluids :p :p You should get into the habit if checking your drive, tranny, and engine fluids each time you go out. Especially on a new boat!!!

That being said see what they say. Don't sell the boat because some one at the dealer screwed up or what ever. You should be fine. Those drives will handle a LOT more HP then 550. I know some guys that are running well into the 800hp range with theirs and they are fine. Like any drive, don't hammer it out of the hole and lift on the throttles when you are in the air and you will be fine. 550 is DEFINATLY not a issue with those drives however.

Good to see you have the BW trannies that is a reliefe.

Jon

I AGREE, DON'T SELL THE BOAT.......

Thank you - You guys are awesome
 

Thanks guys. You have made me feel better about it now. I was rather depressed when the drive went out and was about ready to throw in the towel. But, I have my second wind now. My 357 needs a lot more work than just the drive and I was noticing the 357 "flex" this past weekend which made me a little uneasy. But, if I can hang on to it for a few years I should be in the position to get a something much newer then.

Also, I am used to a F-272 with two 260s that you have to hammer out of the hole to get on plane. With the 357 you hammer it and boom it's on plane. I did that a few times this weekend. Man, that thing gets up fast. I mean in just takes a moment and your not only on plane but you're hauling ass (at least to someone who is used to a boat that only goes 62mph). But, I guess I won't be doing that anymore. Perhaps me hamering it out of the hole along with it being low on fluid was just too much for it. Or, maybe age just caught up with it like Outlaw said. When South Austin Marine (SAM) serviced it they said that starboard outdrive looked like new inside. The port is old but the starboard was new. So, I guess the former owner hammered it out of the hole a few too many times also. I read that the right hand drive was much weaker than the left and that's probably why the right side was new.

Anyway, It looks like we'll be keeping her. I also think that SAM will take care of me at least to some degree. Perhaps they'll offer to split it or I can pay for parts and them labor or something. My step father bought a new 30' Monterey from them about a year ago. They're the only Formula dealer around and they have a great reputation. Plus, they know I am wanting to get something newer in a few years so I am hoping for the best.

It is very good to hear that these drives can handle the power. It's also good to learn my lesson about not hammering it out of the hole (although it is quite fun) and about checking the fluid levels. I won't make that mistake again.

Once again thanks for the support. I'm very glad to be a part of OSO.

Yeah, it is a great feeling to know that help, support, and Troutly's guide to finer pornography is only a keyboard away.:D :D :D :D

LOL, hey I didn't know about the porn part. Is that what the uncensored section is for?

Hell ya it is. When you are done posting your boat blown up or in my case rotted out questions you can run right over there and you suddenly feel better :D:D

Jon

:D Troutly has long been appreciated as the librarian of the uncensored section. An authority on finer female photography.:D

My 311 has blown 454's in it with TRS / BW trannies throwing around 550 hp. I just got the boat last year, but the blowers have been on it for about 10 years. So I wouldn't worry about the power thing too much. As said before, don't do crazy hole shots and watch the air situations which both cause tremendos loads.

However, if your drive works in reverse and not forward that usually is a sign of the tranny is damaged. There is no shifting in that drive from what I understand - all done in the tranny. I guess you will have to wait until they get it apart.

As far as low fluid, did they drain them and see how much came out, or just by the measuring dip sticks on the transom boxes? The sticks on those things always read low, just on the very bottom of the stick. Everyone I know has the same issue, but it isn't a problem from what I understand. You fill that box up to the correct level on the stick, go out for a run, and the stick is back down again to the bottom. However, it never goes below that bottom of the stick level even if I don't ever add fluid. I had one of my drives resealed, and it still happens. Happens to all my friends TRS's as well. Seems to be the way they behave... anyone else see this?

Also, is the marina and mechanic you are using very familiar with TRS? Some say they are but really aren't...

Thanks Jaybird -

They do say they're familiar with TRS and the trannys but I have my doubts. It is interesting about the fluid level though. Both are exactly where you stated. Right at the bottom of the stick.

I should know more Monday.

BTW what type of speed are you getting out of it with 550hp in a 311? I'd think you'd be near 80mph.

If you are concerned about the bill and time, ask them to pull the drive off first w/o taking it apart. Then try shifting it and see what happens. If the tranny is cooked, and you are unsure of their capabilities, I wouldn't screw around with them. Ship the tranny to a known marine trans shop, like BAM, for a rebuild plus upgrades. This stuff is "old school", and there is plenty of expertise around, so take advantage of it.

As far as speeds go, I can only guess since I haven't GPS'd it yet. I have run along side my friends Formula 382 at 76 mph on his GPS, and then proceeded to walk right past him. I'm guessing low 80's. For what it's worth (not much!!), I have put the speedo needle between 6-7 o'clock position (75 mph is around 5 o'clock, stock gauges) on flat water, no bouncy bounce. Fast enough for me! I need new props though - turning 5600 rpm.

Good luck with the repair!

Good idea. Thanks Jaybird.

Jaybird, as far as props go give the guys at Hydromotive a call and tell them your boat, etc. These guys were absolutely terrific with me and I got exactly what they told me. I picked up 7mph at cruise and 3 mph at wot with my 311 with 454 mags over the Mirage's that came with the boat. Might be worth a phone call. Luck...