Orca Challenge
 

Does Anyone Out There Know What The History Of Orca Challenge Is? 38' Fever From Lake Conroe, Tx. I Bought It In August And Am Trying To Trace Its History, Especially The Engines

I talked to the owner before it was sold, I'm sure he told you it was his friend's boat since new, so he should know all there is to know, if not maybe he can tell you who the original owner was unless there was a problem with the sale. Told me the 540's had some work done by Fountain when new, took care of a problem, end of story. Hope all is well with the boat, looked really nice, just couldn't swing it at the time. How does it run with the bulldogs?

It Was A Classic Case Of A Lot Of Mismatched Parts. Bottom Ends While High Dollar Were Built Like Blower Motors. Had 1/8" Stroker Cranks, Good Rods, Dished Pistons, And Monstrous Camshafts. Top End Had Heads From 1974, Angle Cut To The Max, Ported, And A Pair Of 4500 Holleys Flowing Over 1300 Cfm. Had Tall Deck Blocks With Short Deck Intake Manifolds, Etc. Unbelievably The Boat Would Run On Top End Pretty Respectable, But That Was It. I Got A Good By So No Problem, But The Guy I Got It From Didn't Know What Was There, I Don't Think. I Was Just Trying To Find Out If It Did Have Blowers On It At Some Point, Or What They Thought They Were Achieving By Building It The Way They Did. It Had Injested Water On Both Engines, So The Rebuild Was Inevitable, But I Didn't Expect To Find Inside What I Found. By The Way It Was 557 Cubic Inches, Will Be 565 When I Get Done, But I Threw Everything But The Blocks, Cranks, And Carbs In The Used Parts Bin.

The original owner is supposedly no longer lives in the U.S., according to the guy I got it from.

Did he tell you the same story he told me? Sounds like he didn't disclose all the issues at the time of the sale. He told me they were factory 540 bulldogs with cam problems if I recall, really low original hours, 125? I couldn't sell a boat to someone and not disclose obvious problems, he had to know there was a problem with the engines. Thats just wrong! Thats still alot of money to spend and have to pull both engines Good luck

The hour meter on the boat showed about 130 when I got it and the condition of the boat itself was immaculate and original as best I could tell, so I couldn't dispute that, but I don't know for sure if the second owner really knew all about the boat or not for sure. He claimed he didn't know it had injested water and that he didn't know or was unaware that the motors had been modified, and once again I can live with that, because when I met him the engines did start and we took it for a ride and it was strong, but wouldn't idle below about 3000 rpm's. I figured it was just the big carbs needing work since he told me it had not been run much in the last 3 years, and assuming the motors were stock, but when I got it home and went through the carbs and couldn't get it to idle and then changed the carbs out for a set of smaller ones thinking the 4500's were too big and still wouldn't idle, I started pulling plugs and checking compression and started finding problems, but still never give much credence to anything too bad until it was obvious I was going to have to take down one of the engines and look at it. Once that we saw what we had it was too late to look back then, so down with the second to change out the mismatched items in it and make it match up with the other one. The port engine was in bad shape because the water damage to one cylinder was old and had ruined the cylinder so it had to be bored and the bearings were turning black with heat so crank was bent and rod was messed up on same cylinder as was piston (naturally). By the time I had found all this it was obvious that a lot of changes needed to be made if I was ever going to be able to get any enjoyment out of it, so the rest is almost history. In spite of that, I hold no malice, but I would love to know if the boat ever had blowers or if they started one way and changed in mid stream, or if they took blowers off and just put some old heads and carbs back on it to get rid of it. Anyway outside of the short sea trial I had in Mississippi when I met the second owner, I did make 2 attempts to take it out but never got away from the dock either time, so I am anxious to get to take it out with the new matched up combination. Also contacted Fountain early on and they had original records of how it left them but no records of any modifications. The blocks were the original serial numbers, but everything else had been changed, and while everything but the heads were high dollar pieces, none of it went together, and the casting numbers on the heads went out of production in 1974 so it has been a calamity.

I really don't think you know what the hell you are talking about. :rolleyes:

Heavy,

Again, I've been around the boat and original owner since it was new. He was never happy with stock but learned his lesson on his first fountain. This is why he order Orca straight from the factory with nothing crazy on it except every option available. I did not have access to any paperwork before I was going to buy the boat, so i don't know what he sent it back to Fountain for, but I do know that it NEVER had blowers on it. I knew the Orca better than the second owner, whom you bought the boat from, and I far as I knew they were stock. The second owner bought the boat b/c he got a deal and he was going to flip it. After driving the Orca around the Lake for a few times he was actually torn between selling his Cigarette instead of Orca and keeping it as his pleasure boat. The original owner sold the Orca to the second owner for the simple fact that he NEVER used the boat anymore. It sat out back of his huge house on the lake forever. I know for a fact that the hour meters, which you said read 130 hrs, were the original hours on the boat. In fact, I was surprised it had that many.

Cold,

Both owners of this boat were unaware of any problems with the engines and there were never any cam issues like you stated. I personally drove the boat before it was delivered to Heavy and it ran like a scalded a$$ed ape. It made me very sad to see her go because I could not sell my boat in time to buy her. Don't turn this into a $hit talking thread on something you know nothing about

I watched the boat run flawlessly several times during the summer of 07 on lake conroe. The boat was very strong, and if my guess is correct, it was running very close to 80-85mph. There werent any blowers on the motors, and there were several people that wanted to buy the boat when it sold.

I've made it clear I'm not dissatisfied. The one time I got to ride in the boat before we exchanged money for property it ran like hell on top end, but would not idle at all. I have torn both engines down, and the only thing stock in them were the blocks and they were standard bore, but those motors had been down not once but many times. The port block even had a hairline crack at the bottom of one cylinder and someone had drilled an 1/8" hole to stop the crack in the cylinder wall. It was near the bottom of the cylinder where compression could not be affected and since bowtie blocks have siamese cylinder walls no water could come through from a water jacket. Both motors had 1/8" stroke BRC cranks, eagle rods, ross pistons and reed cams and the pistons were dished for about 8 to 1 compression. Everything there was classic parts for blower motors. The head castings were automotive that GM stopped producing in 1974, a set of L88 open chamber heads and had been ported and angle milled some .200, milled so much that the casting marks were eliminated on the flat surface of the heads. Great set of heads for a drag car, but not for a boat. They had used 9.8" intake manifolds on the 10.2 inch blocks, so they had added spacers to make them work and because the heads had been cut so much, the intakes had to be milled to the extent that the metal thickness where the distributor bolts down were paper thin and when we removed the distributor in the port motor the metal seat where the distributor set fell into the lifter valley. The 4500 Holleys were automotive style as well and not the marine style carburetors. To conclude, I'm not talking sh$t, I'm talking facts, and asking questions because I know it didn't come that way and I know someone knows the real story, and as I've stated I don't think the guy I got it from knew what he had, and for the short period of time he had it, the motors were slowly dying. Between 1994 and 2007 a lot of things happened and someone knows the real story. I bought it and paid for it based on the man's descripton, the survey that the man provided me that Wstultz commissioned a month before I bought it and of my own inspection and I was happy when I got it and I'm still happy in spite of the fact that I've spent $20,000.00 dollars that I wasn't expecting in late August, just glad I was able to be in that position. No one needs to take offense because I'm not. If I was wrong to wonder why someone would take such a nice piece of equipment and cobble up the most important part, then I apologize.

[QUOTE=then I apologize.[/QUOTE]

Who is doing the engine work now?

Custom Marine Machine in Wilmington, NC pulled the engines and disassembled both as I watched, that's how I know for a fact what was inside the engines and what their condition was, and I'll agree with all those that knew the boat in the month or 2 before I got it that it had big top end speeds, but I'll be damned if I know how.

Its a Fountain

did some more research, it appears these guys worked on it in the early 90s Derebery Performance Marine

Also it had B&M 250's on it at one time

Thank you for the information. I knew no one in their right mind would spend that much money on a low compression bottom end like the boat had in it, and then purposely put the top end the way it was when I got the boat. What I saw in the shortblock was saying bulletproof for superchargers, and what I saw on top was saying obsolete high compression parts for drag racing with carburetors.

So Tell us, what how are you going to set it up this time?
Inquiring minds need to know!

Had to straighten the bent crank and turn it .010. New longer length rods (eagle), bore both blocks .030, JE .030 over pistons flat top this time, balance both assemblies, Ultra Dyn hydraulic rollers around .600 lift and 230 degrees @ .050, Merlin heads, New Dart intakes for 10.2" deck height blocks, and the 4500 Holleys if they work on the Dyno, and if not, 850 Holleys. Ready to run both on the dyno next week. Have CMI's w. Captains Choice. Eliminating the Captains choice, as my motor man feels that the agressive camshafts that were in the boat along with captains choice caused the water injestion. Don't want to take any chances so going along with his suggestions on that. With the 1/8" stroke cranks and .030 over bore it shoud be 564 cubic inches with all parts matching one another. I'm hoping for top end performance like all the Texas boys said it had and be able to get it off and on the trailer or pull up to a dock with relative ease. Previously that was impossible, but when you look at what was there, its unbelievable that it would run at all. I'm hoping to have some fun with it next summer, and will be disappointed if I don't.

Heavy,

I didn't mean to come off negative. I'm glad you like the boat and sorry you had trouble with her. T-bone might have been mistaken about the blowers.....The original owner had a '91 model 38 that was red and also called Orca Challenge. Derebery did all of the work on that boat and it had huge motors with blowers on them. This boat rarely ran correctly which was the owners reason for buying the stock Orca that you now own. When we asked the first owner he said that only Fountain worked on the boat. You must be right to believe this is not true because I don't see Fountain putting engines like that together. I guess it is possible that Derebery could of worked on his second Fountain. You might give them as shout and see what they know about it. If you do call them make sure you are clear that the boat you are talking about is not the red Orca.

Someone was going in the direction of blowers with the bottom ends. Whether they ever actually put them on it I guess only the original owner could answer. From what I found in the engines it is obvious that what he told you was not correct information. He may have been led to believe otherwise by a shop or mechanic somewhere but got something entirely different. Only he could elaborate on that, and I've been led to believe that he no longer resides in the United States. We checked with Fountain early on and they had the original records and according to them the boat left Fountain with a pair of 540 Bulldog's with 850 Holley's. They had nothing to indicate it had ever returned to them for any reason, and I'm sure they would never install a combination like the boat had when I took delivery. The part that confounds me is that in 13 years there was an original owner who had it 12 plus years and claimed it was stock, the second owner who had it 6 months and made the same claims as the original owner and then myself since late August, yet I tear it down within 10 days of taking delivery, and find parts (the heads) that are 20 years older than the hull, and carbs and intakes that are automotive style (not that it really matters but there is a difference in the marine style dominator and the automotive style and the same with the marine style intake.), so I'm obviously thinking someone didn't give me the real story and I would really like to know and from the information I got from the second owner which he said was passed down from the first owner was that no one but Fountain had ever touched the boat, so naturally after talking to the second owner and advising him of what I had found and him steadfast that he had know knowledge, the next call was to Fountain and they don't know anything, so now I'm here to see who has any recollection, and I appreciate everyone who has contributed to the thread.

Do you know the centers on the drives, are they at 34" . I just bought a 1990 38' Fever and plan on building 600 ci tall decks, was wondering what the clearance for headers might be .

I'll have to get back to you on that one because I don't know the drive centers, and I'm about 80 miles from the boat, but the height difference in the blocks is .400". If the boat had big blocks in it originally, that should be the only difference as far as I'm aware. You probably already know that if the motors are side by side that the clearance is super close.

I know they are going to be close since it is a side by side , and i don't know what it had prior to me getting it. All i know is that it had Blowers, I bought it as a repo from a bank. I just want to take some time and build killer naturals

Probably should pose your question in its own thread as I'm sure more than one of the OSO members have crossed this path before, and I'd be interested to know myself. I know my engine builder kept steering me toward staying with the tall decks in my boat over concerns for exhaust/transom location, when it was obvious I was going to be doing major engine work. I suspicion that all the engines are located on the same centers, and the transoms are bored for the exhaust based on the engine height and width at time of manufacture. I know they got performance gains with the staggered engines, but they had to be thinking about making them easier to work on when they decided to stagger them. What a nightmare to do anything to the side by sides while in the boat.

Mine has 34" centers and 16" x dimension according to the original build sheet. You can call Fountain and give them your serial number and they can provide you this information.

Heavy, ask your engine builder why he's using such a mild camshaft. 230 duration @ 50 is very, very conservative. Ask him if you could put a little more duration into the stick, like about 250-260, and look for around 640-660 lift.

I've used those Crane cams that have 632 lift, and 254-260 duration, and have very good success with them. They were actually alot milder than I thought they would be, and idled perfect @ 900-1000. Just a thought before you get too far into them to make a change.

Frank

It's really by my choice, with a little input from the builder, concerning agressive cam and valve timing versus water injestion, which is why the motors are apart. I wanted a nice boat that would run decent without having to work on it constantly, but even more than that would be mannerly around the docks or when maneuvering around other closeby boats. I probably will use it predominantly in fresh water (smaller lakes with a lot of traffic) and I didn't want the worry of fighting it to get it in and out of the water or take a chance on skinning up someone else's boat in tight quarters. I feel like the 565 cubic inches will give me all the power I want in open water and the milder cams will keep me out of trouble at idle, and will alleviate the possibility of water injestion. (My racing days are over but I still love a rush.) Getting ready to go to the dyno with the engines hopefully by the end of this week, so cams are already in. If I see numbers there that I don't like I might rethink the cam issue. Thanks for your advice.

Sucks to hear about that boat. I just cam across this thread. I had seen that boat run once recently also and thought it ran great, but it was only on the top.

Good luck with it.

Bring it back down when you gat it finished. I am shure Tbone would like a rematch. :evilb::eek::angry-smiley-038:

Heavy, I hope after all the work you're putting into the boat, you see the results that you're looking for. Good luck with it, and keep us posted.

little more duration?????
 

Yes, the cams are fairly mild, but coupled with a high flowing head, such as a 345 runner dart, I have had good results with this particular grind. But the MAIN REASON, is water reversion, I don't care who's exhaust you have on the boat, if its a std. wet system, and you got over 230 degs. at .050 your looking for problems. Believe me, I'm the first one to use a big stick, thats how you make big power, but from exp., my non-racing performance customers want reliabilty fore front, along with a broad power range. (not no mention if it f**'s up, my number is one on speed dial!) Now if he had some dry Imco's or tube Stellings, or something of that nature, I would have picked something more aggressive. But he don't. We don't even have the CMI's that Heavy may have thought. This boat still has the factory Mercruiser HP manifolds, with the merc S/S riser/tailpipes. So obviously this stock exhaust system did not work well, with the captain choice running through the prop, and trying to spin that big .660 lift, .290 @ .050 soild lifter Reed cam! Like Heavy said, these engines were the classic case of "how not to build your engine"
Mark

Mark, I agree with you 110% on that exhaust issue. I was'nt aware of the kind of exhaust he's running. I just assumed that he had a good aftermarket exhaust like CMI's or Stellings. Usually when someone tries building some bigger than stock cu.in. engines, they're running a good flowing exhaust to start with.

Can you talk him into some exhausts???:D

The CMI's are something else that the boat was advertised with and didn't have. I had CMI on the brain from reading all the Trick Marine posts and typed it in the description without thinking or realizing it for the second time now. It would be great to have CMI's, but considering the type boating that I do and what they cost, I would like to get on the water 1 time with the boat before I dump another 7 grand.

Once you hear the roar of the "big" exhaust and see how well they perform, you'll forget all about what they cost you.:D

AND, you'll never have to worry about that "water reversion" problem anymore. :grinser010:

[QUOTE=10x;2365271]Once you hear the roar of the "big" exhaust and see how well they perform, you'll forget all about what they cost you.:D


I would surely hope so, since all I've heard thus far was the sucking sound of money leaving my checking account. Bring Out Another Thousand.

[QUOTE=heavyhauler;2366732]Break
Out
Another
Ten thousand

Been there, done that. I remember when I used to say "that's it, not another fk'n dime into this boat" But, when the warm weather's here, and you're in the water with that "bad azz" hot rod, you seem to forget all about what you said when you were working on it. At least I do. :rolleyes:

Good luck in whatever you decide. If you're not planning on keeping it for a while, don't spend the money. If you are, then it'll be money well spent.