Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Since I'm not having much luck gathering info in my other thread....

What is your X dimension?
(the distance from from the crankshaft centerline directly down to the running surface).

Please include boat size and stepped bottom or not.

Or if you don't know that, just let me have a measurement from the bottom of your bravo gimbal plate to the notch in your transom.

Thanks guys! I'd really appreciate the info.
Dan

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

94 32 non step X dimension was 16" before goingto imco 2" shorties.
Eric

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Zanie,

What boat are you wanting these spec's for. I saw your other post and if you have no luck I am going down to LCM to pick our boat up from Randy...( getting her winterized :( ) it is an 05 Lightning with xr's off the back. I could take some transom measurements if these would help?

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Eric,
How did your boat do after the shorties? What kind of power, drive ratio, props, mph, etc.. Thanks

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

bobkatz the boat has 502mpi,s 1.5 gears and had 26 hydrmotives the boat would run about 72 when I got it I went to the shorties and the boat would not come on plain with the hydromotives I changed to 28 bravos and the boat jumped on plain and the cruise at 3500 was about 5 mph faster top end went to 76.1 the best I have seen, and most days about 75 I really like the shorties I traded for the ones I have but I dont think I would go out and spend 4000 dollars on a set.
Eric

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

How about prop depth?
The distance from your running surface to the propshaft centerline.
3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0?
Throw a guy a bone here, huh?
Thanks!

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Mine is 4.0" prop shaft depth and 18" X but you knew that, did you check with any old 10 meter owners?

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Zanie,

What points do you need measured? I'll check tomorrow.

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Mine is also 4''

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Hey Bryan,
Thanks again for all your help with the Q&A on transom repair.
Sheesh, what a job. My digital camera broke a while back, so I haven't taken any photos in while. I'm going to post a start to almost finished thread next month.
I haven't seen many posts from you lately on your progress.

Can you check the prop height on your boat for me?
Trim the drives level with the running surface.
Hold a straightedge onto the bottom of the boat , directly in line with the propshaft.
Measure the vertical distance down to the centerline of the propshaft.

It's a handy measurement to know anyway, if you have your props "worked".

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Will do. I had some finnish rigging to do in the engine bay. A week or two before pics. I'll measure it and let you know. Keep at it. Winter will be enough of a break, then hit the water!

Good luck.

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Zanie,

Mine is at 4" from the bottom. 7" from the notch on aprrox. 34" centerline.

Good luck.

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Dan... 4" from the bottom sounds about right. I've got 1" but then again I've got boxes that put the prop another foot back.........Frank

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Hey 10x - it's that time of year to start screwing my boat up again, and I'd like to know more about what extension boxes do to a 10-meter's handling characteristics. Did you own the boat before the boxes were installed?

Also, with your propshaft at 1" below the running surface, was this accomplished by raising the motors? Shorter drives? Both? You're running SSM 5's, right?

Just looking at my options. The Konrad folks have 8", and 12" boxes, and can probably build any length I need. I have to move my motors anyway, so up wouldn't be that much more difficult.

Thanks in advance,
Brian

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Hi Brian, long time no talk. This was the way the boat was when I bought it. From what I understand from Reggie, they made several changes to the bottom (5-6) back in 89 to this particular boat.
I have prop shafts 1" below the bottom of the boat with 12" boxes, and 1" spacers in the drives. I asked Reggie if I would go faster if I removed the spacers and had the shafts even with the bottom. He said he did'nt think so, leave em alone. I ruled out trying it cause the boats a handfull to get on plane now the way it is, especially full of fuel and 8-9 passengers on board.
Reggie told me at the factory they raised the engines 2-3", he was'nt sure exactly how much, but they also moved the engines forward about 10-11" too. I very seldom run any tab, unless they're 3-4 ftr's out there. Does'nt run nose high either.
Currently I have the boat (engine compartment and transom) totally apart. Broke a few stringers last summer and started to flex the bottom and transom. Lotta stuff started movin around. What a project this is gonna be this winter. :rolleyes: Also, on the Sept 3rd COPS run this summer, I collapsed a fram oil filter and hurt one engine. Luckily not very serious though, just started knockin from a loss of oil pressure. No major dammage. :D
Was hopin I'd see you on the pond this summer. If there is any info I can give ya on the drive stuff etc. just send me an e-mail, or give me a call.
Frank

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

OK here' what I'm thinking:
My Excalibur has the same bottom as the 1980 Executioner.
Same pad and notch
My "X dimension from the factory is 18.5" X 34.5"
With the TRS my prop depth was about 5.25" or so.
Running worked 330s (probably 400 HP) thru the merc II transmissions I could eek out an honest 70 MPH GPS.
This was turning Mirage 25 three blades the nose was pinned (I believe this was because my pad is so flat).
Planing was never "easy"

My plan:
Bravo drives with the engines in the standard bravo position (this moves the engines about 8 inches back).
Set the "X" dimension at 34.5" X 19" (up 1/2 inch)
IMCO 12 inch neutral extension boxes
This should put my prop height around 3.5" or 4" below the bottom.

Balance shouldn't be too badly affected because:
1. The drives are lighter.
2. Loosing the weight of the transmissions.
3. Changing exhaust from cast iron to SSM Aluminum.
4. Moving batteries from rear of bilge to the front.

Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Dan

Also, Frank I sent you an email!

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Thanks Frank. Couple of more questions... With the engines 10-11" forward, how close does this put them to the forward engine compartment bulkhead? With the 5's, I assume your're running trannies, so it this the distance they had to move forward? Or are they even further forward and you're running a shaft extension to make up the distance? And which trannies? 72's (10-18's)? Ok, that was a few questions.

I'm running some pretty whimpy 10-17's that have been beefed up by Huber to help them live, but racing has been hard on them. So I have a number of options, all of which involve moving my motors. 10-18's will require the motors to go forward 15/16". Extension boxes will require them to go up some, plus forward for the trannies. Konrad has some tricks coming up that would eliminate the tranny, but I don't know what moving the motors backwards a foot would do to the balance of the boat. Then add ext boxes to that setup, and it's back and up for the motors.

What impresses me most about your 10-Meter is that you push it well past the 100-mark, and I guessing that you're comfortable "crusing" in the high 90's. Takes a stable platform to accomplish that. I can live with the planing issues, I just want it to fly with the correct attitude. Sounds like you're already there, so I thought I'd pick your brain.

Thanks,
Brian

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Dan, I like the idea of propshaft height at 3 1/2 to 4" from the running surface with a 12" ext box. The only thing that I question is the Bravo choice. If your plan is to stay with the 454's making 400hp or so, you'll be fine. But what about next winter when you get the itch to juice up power once you have it flying right. Once you're committed to a Bravo setup with your engine locations, you're pretty much stuck. Changing to a different drive type would require that you do this exercise all over again.

There are better chioces for drives for durability. For obvious reasons, Konrad would be my first choice, but SSM 3A's or the shorter 5's are also much srtonger than the Bravos. Each still require a tranny, but Konrad has a shiftable drive that will be released soon. Unfortunately, it might not make your timing for your project this winter. If I choose to go that route, I will be running prototypes from them.

Just food for thought. Sounds like we're both trying to accomplish similar setups. Keep in touch!

Thanks,
Brian

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

P.S. Frank... any ideas about the 5-6 changes Fountain made to your hull? Did they move/add strakes?

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Hey Brian,
Thanks for the input.
Unfortunately a made the decision (and have committed to it) to go the bravo route. I have 98% of the bravo components (HP gimbal assemblies, outdrives, flywheel housings , etc).
I kicked around a set of #3s but since my boat had merc transmissions, I would have had to change transmissions and move my engines forward. The cash required for that drive choice wouldn't have left me with enough money for big enough engines to turn them.
This old boat is not going to see more than 600 HP per motor. With the.weight of the boat and the way I drive (I take my time getting up on plane), building bravos capable of staying together isn't out of the question.
Dan

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Dan.... Sounds like you're on the right track. The only thing you said that concerns me is that with a 12" box, and that is what I am assuming that you are gonna use, you said 3.5-4" below the running surface. Right? Well an old friend of mine, a few years back, had bought a 28 Baja. He owned it for a few years that we wer'nt in touch. Over the few years he listened to everyone that told him what to do. He ended up with boxes on standard height bravos. Had about 700 hp blower engines also. Back one sunday in june of 02 when my Fountain was almost finished, he kept his 28 at the marina that we were rerigging my boat. Showed up one 90 degree sunday morning and asked me if I would be designated driver of his boat for the day cause all he wanted to do was drink beer all day long and party. So my wife and I took the front bolsters and headed for a day in the sun.
OMG what a ride !! At 60mph the boat started to bow steer just slightly. I ran the tabs up all the way. NO help. Then I started to trim the drives out, NO help. Practically trimmed the drives off the indicators, and no difference. WTF !!!!!! Still slightly wandering from right to left. So the only thing left to see was what would happen when I eased the throttles down. HOLY $HIT !!! at 75 mph and 5600 rpm this boat bow sterred so bad that it almost threw my wife and I out of the bolsters and him out of the back seat! And he was tellin me that this boat runs upper 80's. NO F'n WAY !!! Bottom line here is that with the boxes installed, they needed to raise the X. They did'nt. We tried putting a pr of Imco 2" shorties on it and it helped it out a little bit. NOT MUCH tho.

I don't remember how deep the drives were originally. When i see Jeff, I will ask him if he has any of this from 02 on paper anywhere. He might, or he might remember the dimensions.

The rest of the day, I was afraid to go over 55-60 mph. And no one believed me when i told them what this boat drove like till they drove it themself.

You may want to keep them props about 1.5 - 2" below.

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Brian.... I'm not really sure what was done on the bottom. I do know they moved the strakes up and down. They lenghtened them and shortened them. What they finally ended up with is what worked the best. What it is I really could'nt say, cause I've never had the boat on a trailer next to another factory stock 10 meter. I do remember them saying that they lenghtened the pad though.

With moving the engines forward, I almost have enough clearance to put my leg between the top blower pulleys and the front drip rail under the hatch. A N/A setup would give you more clearance. I think I might have some pics of when I first bought it showing the room in front of the engines.

The trannys are a velvet drive 10-18-2, and they have a flange on the back of them that a coupler bolts up to and connects a 18-20" drive shaft to.

When the boats starts runnin over 90-95 mph, there is VERY little hull left in the water. I believe I have a pic of runnin at 100 on dead calm water.

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Hey Frank, looks like your motors may be about 2-3" forward of where mine are... 1" of that is a result of a 10-18 tranny vs my 10-17's. I'm also running a tailstocks on my trannies, so your flange/coupler setup might account for the rest of it. Looking at your valve covers, they are a good bit higher than mine using the engine compartment drip rail as a reference. This is part of your higher X-dim, the SSM 5's are the other. This all helps alot in understanding where I need to go.

So where is that? 10-18's will be the first thing, so that will bring the motors forward 15/16". One question: do you use a rear engine mount? My trannies sit on the inner transom assy, and that's my rear mount. I'm considering a flange/coupler setup with a rear mount to make engine R&R a lot easier. As it is now, the drive has to come off first. I can do all of this with no transom work, same X.

The big unknown is whether to run a box or not. I think the consensus is if you go back 12", you go up 2" for the same effective X. I'm running 5 1/2" down from the running surface now, and I could benefit from another 1/2 to 1" higher with the boat as-is, plus another 2" for an extension box. That's up 3" on the motors, and transom assy's. Now we're talking glass work and re-cutting the transom. In itself, this isn't such a big deal, but I'm still trying to understand what I'm buying myself. I don't need more speed, so it all comes down to balance and handling when it's BIG out there. The other thing I'm trying to understand is how this will affect cornering. My non-stepped hull, with fairly deep drives cuts corners real hard, never an uneasy feeling. With my X-dim 3" higher, this is bound to change. It is a raceboat, afterall.

Dan, and Frank, Dan's boat isn't a Baja. Fountains tend to carry their bows well on their own, and that's why a transom-lifting prop like a Hydromotive works well with these hulls. With the bow lifting itself, and a prop that lifts the rear, the whole package loosens itself from the water, helping it fly better with more speed. Sure, it's a loose feeling while driving it, but I wouldn't call it an uncomfortable feeling. Loose=fast. Take a look at the pic above with your boat at speed. There's not much of anything planted in the water there - a beautiful thing.

Here's a couple of pics of my engine compartment for height comparison with yours. You have to look past all the goodies on the top of your motors, and see where the valve covers are in both pics.

Good topics here, cheers to both of you.
Brian

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Wow! that pic of Franks Boat in Flat water is unreal!!!!

"Dan's boat isn't a Baja"
Thanks for noticing! LOL
My boat bottom is an early Reggie design. When Reggie moved operations to NC he left Bill Farmer and Excalibur boats in Florida with the 80's design Executioner. Bill built Excaliburs till 1984 sold the name to Wellcraft and closed the doors.
Reggie further developed the bottom and the boats that came out of NC were the next iteration. The boats out of NC had the Fountain Beaks and windshields.
My bottom is not as nearly refined as your Fountains (Brian, Frank and Bryan), but it still has a pad and a notch. (And Frank's is obviously many many many iterations from mine!!)

From what I can find I think the prop depth on 35 fountains are in the area of 4-1/ to 5 inches below the running surface.

So if I'm at 3-1/2 to 4 I'm an inch up. I don't really have the room to go higher up than the 19 inch "X" dimension that this requires.

If I shouldn't be looking at boxes maybe I should save my $$ ??

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

I seem to remember that Reggie said that they had to raise my engines 2 or 3", and they went forward around 10". Also the transmon was modified above the rub rail ehere the boxex mount.
I do have rear mounts also. The trannys don't have the tailstock on them. The tailstocks are located in the center of the boxes. They're bolted to brackets that are welded to the centers inside the boxes. I believe they're called rear bearing support housings.

Dan.... I think you will be OK without the boxes. Aslong as your prop height is no deeper than 3-3.5" deep.

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Zanie, what are the round white pieces on the transom? I have seen these on other boats and wondered what they were.

Todd

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Looks like "mood lighting" to light up the drives for that midnite skinny dip :cool:

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Do you mean other OLDER boats?
It's the ancient mercathode system. The outer one is obscured by the tie down strap.
You should see the monster electronic control unit. It's the size of a large stereo amp.
I'll be using the new style much smaller control units along with the transom assembly mounted unit.

Mood lighting?...............hey, maybe I shouldn't fill those holes!

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

I got rid of my system when I redid the transom. I don't leave it in the water anyway.

OSO should have an award for the "Most Ambitious Project" done in your backyard. This forum has got to have the winner and a few runner ups...

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

So I emailed Fountain Powerboats figuring they would know what is best for my particular pad bottom notched transom boat .
I received a rather lengthy reply with some helpful advise.
I was told while boxes may give me a mile or two per hour top end, they may cause my boat to suffer in handling and low-mid range performance. He said MAY cause it to suffer. Since I don't have the resources for the trial and error, I'm passing. Obviously every boat and combination is different.

Good enough, No boxes for me, and I'm Setting the "X" dimension at 34.5" X 19" !

I've got enough things apart on this boat, I'm closing the book on the box option.

Thanks for all the input.
Dan

Re: Simple question for Fountain owners with twins.
 

Dan,

I agree. I think that you are money ahead to do without. You'll end up running the boat for a couple of years and another (faster) project will come your way that you can't do without.

Good luck.

Bryan