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Old 11-10-2005, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

I think Ron Ps intentions are good but....calling a Poker Run a race in a performance boat magazine is NOT a good thing.
Printed Ammo for those who are against us.

And.....I just cant see any kind of Poker Run rules that would have prevented the SOTW tragedy. Sad as it is..Sh!!t happens
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Old 11-10-2005, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

Quote:
I think Ron Ps intentions are good but....calling a Poker Run a race in a performance boat magazine is NOT a good thing.
Printed Ammo for those who are against us.

And.....I just cant see any kind of Poker Run rules that would have prevented the SOTW tragedy. Sad as it is..Sh!!t happens
very well put...
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdog
I think Ron Ps intentions are good but....calling a Poker Run a race in a performance boat magazine is NOT a good thing.
Printed Ammo for those who are against us.

And.....I just cant see any kind of Poker Run rules that would have prevented the SOTW tragedy. Sad as it is..Sh!t happens
I fully agree.
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

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Originally Posted by LIOPA
STANDARS.....not laws
Like vest standards, classification standards, performance boating class/ experience standards......POKER RUN JAIL.....NO

Adequate emergency teams, spotter boats relative to the size of the run, enough trained divers with helicopter support.

NO........ I would not enforce them WE as a group you, me, the MFG's the organizers and so on would enforce the SAFETY standards.

"HAVE WE HAD A DEATH" --------- Y E S

( SMOKE ON THE WATER) how quickly you forget.

Quote:
"HAVE WE HAD A DEATH" --------- Y E S
Wasn't refering to SOTW....I was referring to SCOPE.

Quote:
NO........ I would not enforce them WE as a group you, me, the MFG's the organizers and so on would enforce the SAFETY standards.
Inforce them how? We (SCOPE) already indicate that if you run without a vest, or do this or do that.....you are disqualified to win. What else can you do?

Quote:
Adequate emergency teams, spotter boats relative to the size of the run, enough trained divers with helicopter support.
How many for 750-1000 square miles of ocean?



Unless the sport doesn't exist, you will never have ZERO injuries, and you will never have ZERO deaths in a risk sport. You can continue to educate and promote safety.

Last edited by PhantomChaos; 11-10-2005 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdog
I think Ron Ps intentions are good but....calling a Poker Run a race in a performance boat magazine is NOT a good thing.
Printed Ammo for those who are against us.

And.....I just cant see any kind of Poker Run rules that would have prevented the SOTW tragedy. Sad as it is..Sh!!t happens

BINGO!
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Old 11-10-2005, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

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Originally Posted by PhantomChaos
Are there going to be free cocktails at the safety meeting in Miami?
Always...
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Old 11-10-2005, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

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Originally Posted by PhantomChaos
Really? Like who?
Nort, I was one who read the article before it was published and like many, I had a major knee jerk reaction.

So I put it down for a few days and thought up all my replies, but then decided the best thing was to run it as Ron wrote it, NOT BECAUSE I AGREED, but because too many boaters are too complacent about high speed events and there needs to be a discussion. I don’t agree offshore racing has the answer to poker run issues, and many of us have no desire to risk our lives like many racers have done. High speed boating does have it’s risks, but no where like racing!

You’ve been to my poker runs, I make sure we have patrol boats out on the course; to warn spectators and other waterway users and to provide assistance to the participants should it be needed. Lake Havasu City Fire Department has provided a safety crew with diving gear at every event. The County Sheriffs from Arizona and California help patrol. And the Coast Guard has been very involved in our events recently. We have required life vests since the year 2000 and have always required the drivers sign an agreement they have read and will obey our rules, including no alcohol during the run!

We have always been concerned with the speed these boats can run, but also realize our poker run crews are concerned with safety. The want to run fast and do, but that edge of competition, where everything else is discarded, is not there!

Sure, there is a lot of talk, mostly by people who aren’t involved or even running the event. A few times I have intervened and spoke to the participants about rumors of side bets and such. Even those have been overblown talk by people on the side. But I made sure it wouldn’t happen by getting the guys to run in separate groups.

This year, I do want to ad an aerial response team because **** does happen as we all found out this year. I hope it will never be needed, like the last seventeen poker runs I have promoted.

This issue became event more clear when I went out to the Labor Day Poker Run at Lake Texoma. It was a fun event, lots of boats and $47,000.00 was a huge jackpot. But they need some serious lessons on poker run safety. I am sorry, but leading the poker runners flat out through the spectator fleet is ignoring any regard for safety.

I will be attending the meeting in Miami and hope to draft some rules we can all agree to and who knows, they might be a requirement for event insurance coverage in the near future.

Jim
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdog
I think Ron Ps intentions are good but....calling a Poker Run a race in a performance boat magazine is NOT a good thing.
Printed Ammo for those who are against us.

And.....I just cant see any kind of Poker Run rules that would have prevented the SOTW tragedy. Sad as it is..Sh!!t happens
Couldnt have said it better myself
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Old 11-10-2005, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

It's a rather interesting article that certainly could adversly affect the sport as we know it or currently enjoy it. What has alway's bothered me a bit is the percentage of Poker Runners that have actually had a tragic accident in proportion with the number of runs per year and number of participants. Just think about all the Poker Runs Last year for example. EBM has 24 listed and thats not even touching the tip of the iceburg. Now just think how many people/boats participated in each event. Now with all due respect, factor the number of tragic accidents that occurred. I think you will come up with a very small percentage. Not saying that a tragic event is O.k. by any means. I guess it's just like an Airline accident. 200 people die in an Airplane and it's pratically a national disaster, A person dies every three minutes (est.) in a car accident (480 per day) and it's no big deal. Strange how our society thinks.
If I come off as a prick, I certainly do not mean to. I give the families of those involved in any traumatic event the utmost respect.
As far as safety during a Poker Run goes, sure it can always be improved. Poker Running is a relatively young sport. It's obvousily going to be scrutinized. Did Ron have to put this article in a National magazine? My opinion is absolutely not! Don't think that as word spreads about this article it won't be in the desk drawer of every tree hugger, anti-boat polition, parks and recreation commisioners, marine patrol officer, DEC Officer, judge, that ever wanted to put an end to these "reckless, enviromentally unfriendly, Loud, parties on water" . Just one more question, how many boat owners and operators are going to jump up and change the way they participate in an event after reading Ron's Article? IMO not to many. As a matter of fact, most of them won't even know where they left this copy of EBM after next wk.

Last edited by Need-the-Speed; 11-10-2005 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:43 AM
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Default Re: Extreme Boats Magazine Poker Run Article

I must be one of the few “on here” that has a problem with the wording of this article.

In the time where states such as New Jersey, New Hampshire and Florida (to name a few) are looking to impose speed limits on theirwaterways, power boaters certainly did not need to have this published as written in a National magazine.
Rest assured, this article will come up in the future as evidence for even more of a reason for those states to impose such limits.
I am sorry to see that Ron doesn’t distinguish what is a Race and what a Poker Run or a Fun Run is.

As an example, the Hudson event is 2 events. One is a Poker Run and one is a Race to the Tappan Zee Bridge. Separate awards are given out for each. Most people show up to do the Poker Run where it is at the captain’s discretion of how fast and how long that he/she will run fast. The Poker Runners follow up behind the Race to the Bridge.
Perhaps this is where he was misguided and confused?
Also note, classes are separated by speeds the boats are capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quote From The Story:

“everyone knows that the first boat to the predetermined destination gets the recognition for being the “fastest boat on the water.” If it is truly not a race then what is it? A high speed scenic tour? Ok, that sounds believable but only if there’s a boat that everyone follows and is not allowed to pass. If that were the case, most would agree, a Poker Run is not a race…but that is not the case is it?”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quote From The Story:

“…it most certainly is a RACE. You can call it whatever you want, but when the green flag flies, the hammers drop to the stops and the race begins, at least to the first card stop.”

I feel the story is INCORRECT with labeling all Poker Runs as Races.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quote From The Story:

“who do we think we are kidding anyhow? Even insurance underwriters say “Poker Runs aren’t race – yeah right- wink – wink.“
Was this really a necessary comment? I am sure the Insurance Advertisers for the publication are just thrilled about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quote From The Story:

“So if Poker Runs are actually races in disguise, what’s the difference? The only real difference I can see between a race and a poker run is that races go in circles in a confined area and poker runs from point A to B.”
If this is the only difference the writer sees between racing and poker runs, then the writer certainly hasn’t been around enough poker runs to be qualified to write such an article.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quote From The Story:

“No wonder Poker Runs are so popular with the high performance crowd. It’s all fun with no restrictions.”
I’m not sure what runs you have been to, but there are restrictions and rules to follow at the runs I have been to from NJ, NY and the 1000 Islands in Canada.

For an example:

(1) Absolutely no alcoholic beverages until the Poker Run is OVER.

(2) All participating poker run boat occupants must wear PFD's
(3) Driver must wear ignition safety switch lanyard(s) while the boat is underway
(4) No sitting on top of the seats or on sunpads when the boat is on plane
(5) Break starts up into groups based on speed

(6) Medical/rescue personnel onboard at least one boat in every group
(7) No passing the paceboat
(8) Minimum separation of 100' fore-and-aft and 50' side-to-side between boats when on plane
(9) Written instructions/charts handed out by organizer with appropriate speed limit and safety notations.
(10)Strict speed limits in congested areas.



The Poker Run 10 Commandments, which were created by NJPPC member Chuck Sprague, have been a key tool in helping poker run producers have safer events. The Poker Run 10 Commandments were formed with the consent of Poker Runs America which was the first organization to institute strict safety guidelines at poker run events.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Need-the-Speed
As far as safety during a Poker Run goes, sure it can always be improved. Poker Running is a relatively young sport. It's obviously going to be scrutinized. Did Ron have to put this article in a National magazine? My opinion is absolutely not! Don't think that as word spreads about this article it won't be in the desk drawer of every tree hugger, anti-boat politition, parks and recreation commisioners, marine patrol officer, DEC Officer, judge, that ever wanted to put an end to these "reckless, enviromentally unfriendly, Loud, parties on water" . .
I agree 100% NTS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron P
This article was only published after being sent to guys like Stu Jones, Billy Frenz and ten more for their input before it was published. We didn't do this lightly because if Poker Runs go away, so does EBM. We want to secure our future.
I'm curious to know who the other 10 were and why one of the most respected and "LOCAL to you" Poker Run Clubs "NJPPC" was not contacted for the article?
As well as SOTW???


Quote:
Originally Posted by boatme
Just to set the record straight

It wasn’t until we saw the article in EBM that we even knew about its existence. It seemed the article was shared with all primary poker run promoters but us, the guys who put on SOTW . No one owes us a look see at their article, but I think it is highly interesting that this accident happened at our event yet know one invited us to this poker run summit in Miami until we initiated a dialog with Ron P through e mail.
Marc
Thanks Marc!

May we have a safer 2006 season.

P.S.
Why are the Poker Run particpants not invited to this meeting?
They may have ideas too.....
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Last edited by SHARKEY-IMAGES; 11-11-2005 at 09:03 PM.
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