Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Nobody says they can't run, I said earlier that just bragging rights would be up for grabs for the boats that can't run with the big boys. Who knows, maybe all the big boys will break, and a smaller, slower boat would win. A classic Tortoise vs Hare scenario.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

and there are 42 starters not the half dozen you mention, and they are ranked/started on thier qualifying effort... many guys that run in the race are no nomers that qualify 42...thats better than being 43rd.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

They will go hand in hand. And I think the point to the original thread was real offshore racing to bring in more manufacturers! :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Cuda, think about this. Avergae Joe Public is sitting in his recliner and watching Nascar on a Sunday afternoon. A commercial comes on and says:

#1 - REAL OFFSORE CHALLENGE! Back like it the good ol' days this 150 mile race will test man and machine against mother nature! We have rounded up SIX of the fastest boats in the world to compete in this event and it is sure not to dissappoint any fan of true speed! Be sure to tune in and see who the offshore king will be!!!

#2 - REAL OFFSORE CHALLENGE! Back like it the good ol' days this 150 mile race will test man and machine against mother nature! We have rounded up over SEVENTY of the fastest boats in the world to compete in this event and it is sure not to dissappoint any fan of true speed! Several classes of boats from the high flying under 30 footers to the 100+ mph big dogs. Be sure to tune in and see who the king of offshore will be!!!

Which one is the average person going to want to watch? Which one is going to draw more manufacturers? Which one is going to draw more sponsers? Which one is going to be better overall fo the sport?

My point is we can have the big dogs run AND have smaller boats run in classes. Did I make my point? :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Many people miss the point. Think about where Nascar would be today if only manufactures provided support/sponsorship. The cars you see are sponsored by major corporations, not the manufacturer unless of course I missed something and Viagra is building cars :rolleyes: The teams need money to setup the boat they feel is competitive, at that point the manufacturer may get involed with supporting their product. The only way to get corporations to put up the money is to get the public involved. It's all advertising and corporate hospitality.

Sanctioning bodies need to set the rules, keep them in place for a mininum of 5 year and not bend to pressure from well funded teams. The LLC almost had it but got so deep in the politics and dealing with the egos they lost it. Takes a huge pair of balls to stand up to all these teams and say "this is the way it is, don't like it race somewhere else." In the end you may lose a team or two but the overall fleet will be much larger.

As far as classes, there are too many. You can't build a professional race organization with amature type classes. The fans, especially new ones, get confused and lose interest. We did a lot of corporate hospitality with our sponsor and their "guests". Our SCL usually ran with SC and SCL outboards. They had no idea who was racing again who. So the only fans we're really left with are the hard core boaters that understand the boats. You need fans that can identify with the teams. 80% of the people watching Nascar don't have a clue about the cars or the rules, but that toothless woman sitting it TN is saying "that driver sure is cute" so she watches the race and can understand who is leading and who isn't.

but that's just the opinion of an x-racer that got totally tired of the BS to the point where I don't even bother following it anymore.......except to see how ScottB is doing. AMF rules!!!

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I agree, that's why I say size classes only. That's it, unlimIted hp, any drive you want, any weight, whatever. That way MORE boats will be involved. I think the public could handle that. Even the toothless women! :d

Without a lot of boats and some good deck to deck racing the public will never show interest.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

2 classes, one for Vs and one for Cats. All other boats should be run on a different day.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Look, boaters are boaters, performance boaters would love it. If we just had an OSO member race, and told everyone else to F off, filmed and taped everything, we would have an awesome event. Let's do it. Fort Lauderdale to Bimini. My boat is ready.....in the under 60 MPH class, complete with fishing gear! Under 60, under 80, under 100, over 100 under 35, over 35 feet, cats and V separate classes. That ain't too difficult. <gg> Make sure U.S. Coast Guard was notified well in advance.

I think many of the lightweight B.S. "performance boats" made today would break apart, or fly weird off real offshore waves, that is why manufacturers don't want to do this type of thing.

Hey, this is Offshore Only, let's prove it with an internal "club" event. That will give the goof up racing organizations something to think about also.

It should cost NOTHING more than Bahmian entry permits. Plus extras for a party, t-shirts, moorage etc. Start offshore and end offshore or where the Bahamian police say it is okay for a flying finish near shore. I am sure they would be totally amped for this as they love this type of thing, it is great for tourism and brings in the bucks.

Expecting a lot of broken boats, so it would be great for SeaTow also, get them to sponsor perhaps. Safety would be an issue though. Perhaps each boat would have to do a radio or cell phone check on a separate frequency every fifteen minutes or so, giving GPS readings, speed and heading. Failure to report means a roving helicopter would check. Required MOB devices on every person would make rescue easier. Run only the number of boats for available radio channels.

Oh yeah, call it an ocean ralley so the insurance companies are happy.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Why turn away potential smaller boats that could make the whole thing more exciting and in turn get more viewers? Size classes aren't confusing and they could all race at the same time. Hell, even the average nascar fan can read a tape measure! :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

First a major network has to carry this. Fox, Abc, Nbc maybe
Cbs :D in order to gain fans then the sponsors will come out in droves.
Second you have to have smaller boats involved. The type the "average income" fan
can realistically afford. More boats running more action for a first time viewer.
We all enjoy watching the big dogs stomp but everyone cant afford them.
This is how the major sponsors will look at it also.
And only running 1/2 dozen boats is a hard sell to a major network let alone sponsors.

Theres all types of incomes out there and if you make seem like boating is
unattainable to the average joe then why would he or how could he become a fan?

When you have the announcer rattling off sizes and hp ratings and prices of all boats the
average first time viewer might hear something they can actually afford and go over to the
computer and start looking into it, and then it begins.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

You put all those boats on the course at the same time and you can't tell the difference between a 42 and a 36. Hell the people that we had on the yacht right next to the course couldn't tell the difference between the IOs and outboards never mind the difference between SC and SCL. I believe the reason APBA ran us together was to make the fleet look bigger making a bigger impact to the average Joe sitting on the shore. Didn't do anything to build fan loyality though. The races came to town then left leaving with it the one day fans from that town.

Either you build a professional race organization of one or two classes or you have what you have today, self sponsored club style racing. Would it be more exciting to have ricers running the Daytona 500?

We had a corporate sponsor that used the events to entertain clients. There was way too much confusion when the boats ran. Most the the people back at the company would listen to the web broadcasts, they had no idea who was in the lead. The CEO used to say "when you guys going to beat Don Q?" They weren't even in our class. We spent more time explaining who was racing against who than anything else. It was very frustrating to us and guests the company flew in for the race.

To make it work you needs fans, loyal fans and lots of them. Even if every performance boater was a fan there just aren't enough of us.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I think you missed Mr Velocity's point. I think he was saying there are too many classes, and nobody knows who is racing who.

I could be wrong.
Mr Velocity?

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I'd like to see a fan read a tape of a boat running 80 mph in six foot seas and be able to tell the difference between a 39 and a 41 foot boat.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

No I got his point and I agree, way too many classes. My point is have size classes only, then when TELEVISED it's easy to understand. IE "Here's your leader in the 30-35' class". Then even a redneck Nascar fan can follow and understand! :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

First not going to happen until they have a market to sell the "product" to. Without a base of viewers they will never air the show. The APBA LLC used to pay to air the races, backwards of every other sport.

Second, why? Can the average guy afford a Nascar or a Top Fuel Funny car? The difference between either of those and Corvette is the same as comparing an MTI to a Bayliner. Yet a lot of Vette owners like Nascar. Nascar or Drag budgets are higher than that of the average SC team. Rattling off the multi-million dollar budgets of a Nascar team does not turn the average joe off thinking he can't afford to do it. You need the smaller boats if you expect that the sport will be funded by boat manufacturers that need to sell their product to the fans. You don't want to market offshore racing as the sport that all the fans can afford to participate in.

The second point is great for club style racing to get people into the sport. If you want to build sponsors you need to build a professional organization where racing is a business. Unfortunately offshore racing is more about getting drunk in Key West than about running a business. Just look at the posts following Key West or walk through the pits. Again, this was an issue with our corporate sponsor, the lack of professionalism by many teams.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

C'mon Cuda, I was being sarcastic! I meant the classes would be easy to distibguish. No F1, F2, P4, P1, Superboat, Superboat Lite, etc etc confusion. Keep it simple.

I didn't LITERALLY mean they could measure them with a tape off their homemade houseboat as the boats flew by! :rolleyes: :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Exactly, way too many classes and nobody knows who is racing against who. And you can't tell the difference between 35 and 42 when it's zipping by. Maybe most of OSO can but most of American can not.

Like I said my experience was dealing with corporate executives that were flown into watch us race from a private yacht. Although it was the most exciting activity that these people participated in they had no idea what was going on. When someone gets it right there is a lot of money to be made in this sport. No doubt in my mind.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

but nascar does have classes..you make your car to the specs that nascar mandates no more than 750 hp, they provide the tires. if you want to run less hp you race busch.

there has to be a guideline or a starting point to measure from and to...say run as much hp as you wanted but the sanctioning body had everyone run 26 inch props (ie:restricter plates). Nascar has spent millions of dollars to make sure that the races are even. by saying run anything your only inviting mayhem...

there is alot of good ideas, but there has to be guidelines and a base platform to start at...

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

First of all, comparing Nascar to Offshore racing is like comparing a granola bar to a dog turd. Nearly EVERYONE owns a car or has owned a car. How many Nascar bumper stickers you see on POS pickup trucks?

Which is the problem, how do we turn the general public on to Offshore Racing?

Simple - ACTION!!! Give any race fan good action and they will watch. Hell, I have watch modified riding lawn mower races before! :D

And six boats in a 150 mile race isn't going to give the action needed! You will need a lot of boats and some GOOD DECK TO DECK racing, period.

Yes, there are too many confusing classes now. So, break them up into a handful by size only and let them rip. Lots of boats=lots of action.

Is my point getting accross whatsoever or are the batteries dead in my megaphone??? :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Well, obviously I meant Nextel Cup cars. 99% of fans of stock car racing equate Nascar with the Nextel Cup racing.

Even if they are a different class, at least they don't race them at the same time on the same track. :D

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Offshoredrillin my last post wasn't directed toward you just in general. You type faster than I do! :D

I agree I think in a perfect world Factory type racing is where it's at. Sealed engines with equal power and may the best man/machine win. I love Factory racing but this isn't about what I or we like. It's about what the general public will like and WATCH. I just don't think that you will get enough boats to compete with hp restrictions. At least not at first. Just my $.02.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Have you watched that Apache Offshore video in the VIP section? I turned it on a bit ago, just to refresh my memory of it, and ended up watching the whole thing again.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

true but the limiting factor is the track.. the longest track is talladega at 2.5 miles (i think) the ocean is huge . I under stand what everyone is saying and there are good points to them all. however it is just my opinon that there has to be some sort of guideline for the race, wether it is broken down by hp, boat length whatever, there has to be something. If a stock 36 v hull was to go up against a 46 ft cat with big power, the only chance the v would have would be if the big cat broke.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Yes you and I will like it because we are boat freaks! :D But we need the general public to like and WATCH it if the sport is to grow. And I would still rather watch 20 boats racing than 6.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Exactly, this is the ocean, not the redneck roundy-round! :D IMO you have to have some guidelines to get smaller/slower boats to compete. More boats=more action!

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

thats ok, I dindnt take offense, and I think the factorys will come after someone else does it. however the classes are setup, factorys will respond when they see there is money to be made...I think nascar is a good analogy/comparison as it started out grass roots. I remember watching races with my dad, and then 10 yrs ago on tnn on sun mornings you could watch mud bog and swamp races with modifed buggys and tractor tires. I also think that if enough people got together and did it, maybe as an open race...the sponsers may take note...if you build it they will come...

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

The original post by T.B was in response to "WHY DOESN'T CIGARETTE RACE"......

His contention was/is that Cigarette and many other manufacturers would jump in if the format was true old style, man against the sea, hardcore, bad a$$ boats with tough guy crews.

Nothing posted to this point leads me to that same conclusion.

Most manufacturers don't bother with racing because they don't recognize a return on investment. [With the exception of Fountain and a few small, specialized builders].

Cigarette was involved in racing prior to Skip Braver's purchase of the company.

So my question is, did Mr. Bravers decision hurt Cigarette sales? I personally don't believe the production numbers will support that supposition.

How about Nortech??? Is their recent success due in any part to supporting racing?

Yes, old style racing is a romantic thought. :D But it lacks almost everything required to attract builders, sponsors, media and fans in todays world.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

factory support wasnt there in the early days of nascar either so your point is mute...they came after they saw the interest.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

You hit the nail square on the head!!! They don't run Busch on the same track and the same time, hell they don't even run it at the same venue on the same weekend. Exactly my point about too many classes. Image running both classes at the same time :eek: I'd bet they'd lose 70% of their fan base.

Nascar keeps the 2 classes as far apart as possible yet the brain trust in offshore racing runs 10 classes in a single afternoon with many of the the classes running together.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

not nessecarily, they run the races at the track the same weekend, as a matter of fact in richmond they run the truck, busch and nextel cars in the same weekend, twice a year.

we really cant compare open ocean to a 2.5 mile track can we? if each class was started within increments of each other, the faster boats would stay ahead of the others and so on, therefor in theory making it smooth, the room to spread out and find good water is more prominent...that is in theory only though.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

The SC lap the SCL while the SCL lap F2, this is on a 7 mile course. It just becomes a mess.

But everyone seems to miss the point about building the fan base. I suggest you sign up a corporate sponsor for big $$ ($120K - $150K) and have them bring clients in for the events. See the feedback you get and see how long the keep they money flowing. Contact the marketing dept at 3M, ask what they require out of a sponsorship program. You should be able to reach them. Our sponsor Tellium (a maker of core optical networking equipment) was into the WOW factor in a very big way, but even that was only good for 1.5 years before they began to yawn. By the end of the second season they didn't even care anymore mostly because they didn't understand what was happening on the race course and or the points structure.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Ok. Been reading through this and taking some notes along the way as ideas came up.

First. We can not compare this to NASCAR. Yeah, we'd all like to. But its the equivalent of trying to design a plane after a rowboat. A boating equivalent to Nascar exists already. Its called Formula 1. So if I see one more person try to equate this to Nascar, I am going to find them and smack the taste out of their mouth.

What we are talking about is an entirely different style of racing all together. There is no single car type race that we can mimick or pattern this off of. We need to re-write the rule book for what will work for us. We can borrow on ideas that are already established. First we need to establish what kind of race do we want. Do we want a one stage endurance/distance first across the line wins type race? This could be the 150 mile race or a Miami to Bimini type race. Do we want a multi-day multi-stage timed event ala Tour De France? With something like this you can have set start and finish points for each stage. Your time in getting there is logged and the team that finishes each leg with the fastest overall time, wins. Plus you can have events at the finishing spot for each leg of the race. Do we want a furthest distance traveled in set amount of time event like the 24 hours of Lemans?

Next. Lets have some classes so everybody is included. But lets keep it simple. Over 30 foot and under 30 foot. Cats and V hulls. No matter on power or drive type. They can all start together in a big wide rolling start so its more exciting for everyone. Sure, the big dogs will pull out in front fast. But we like that. Believe me, endurance races are great equalizers. Its not always about who is the biggest and fastest. Durability, skill and luck also come into play. Follow an endurance race like the Eco Challenge and see who wins. Its not always the physically strongest team. Its the team that can consistently travel at the highest average speed.

Next, you can have each boat equiped with a GPS transponder that will constantly show its location and can be used to activate an emergency beacon. This will allow officials and emergency crews to keep track of each team during the race and allow for the quickest response available in case of emergeny. The rescue crews can be staged at set locations along the route to allow for an acceptable response time. Not to mention having safety crews in helo's to follow along the route also.

This can definately be done and will attract attention from fans and builders of boats along with equipment manufacturers. Imco could brag that their drives were on the winning boat. Or Weisman had the most durable drive and didnt fail. Winning boat powered by Hawk Power or Chiefs or JC Perf Duct Tape Specials. :D

Manufacturers would jump in for the bragging rights. Ford, GM, Dodge and all the other truck manufacturers use the toughness of their trucks as selling points. Why does someone buy a Hummer? Cause its tough. It would work here too. Fans would have an exciting race to watch and they would be able to see boats that they could buy or products that they could equipe their boats with.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I run my own race team sponserships and I am aware of the cost associated with it. I'm not trying to build a new race program, I'm speaking soley of a once a year big race. for all the marbles for a year. I see the prototype series and the rolex sgs series which i sponser two teams all out on the track at the same time...take for example the rolex 24 hrs at Daytona, all the teams are out there and it works, the sponserchip dollars are there, big names from nextel are driving GT cars... I still think with the right people working on it, it can be done...no one will know until its tried.

In reference to a comment on Nortech, Terry fully admits they dont build raceboats and I think nortech is one of the quality driven manufacturers out there. "IF" there were a race of this sorts, I sure hope they would at least think about it.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

Yeah but a race track (paved or ocean) is a little different
then running "open" ocean race. Were are talking 1 race once a year to "attract"
new fans and ultimately new buyers of boats. TV coverage is where its at, watching
the races on OLN sux your lucky if you get to see more then 2 boats in the screen.
You got to get on a major network its where the money is at.
What sponser doesnt want to be seen on a major network.
Broadcast from Fl. or Cali, MI or the East Coast. Its all in the way you market it.
Once a year its gotta be billed as the "super bowl" of offshore racing. Its all about the hype.

I dont think anyone is saying the whole year should be open ocean just
once a year so when you guys come to town the people who watched on tv
might actually come out to see it live.
If I was a MFG and they said it is to be the "super bowl" of offshore racing on a
major network (sat or sun afternoon) you bet your a$$ I'll have my team out there no matter what the cost.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

what happens after all the planning ....all the ducks are in a row ....all the people , media, the hype of big seas proving equipment and men and or women. The water is dead flat.

I'll race anyhow :evilb:

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

RIGHT ON!!!!! :cool:

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

The first race might not have the coverage we'd all want. But it would catch on. Remember, all it took was for an american to do good in the Tour De France for that event to take off here. In the Us. So we get Freeze Frame Video or someone like that to cover it. RonP can take stills from the start and finish along with the pits and everything else. Then, we package that, take it to the boating public (Grassroots style) and slowly turn on the burner. As the next year comes closer, we turn the fire onto the major media centers like ESPN or ABC or hell. I bet Spike TV would be willing to pick it up. They show all these other motor shows and take pride in being TV for Men. They even picked up Ultimate Fighting as a weakly show. Why wouldnt they want to broaden their fanbase with this.

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

I'll have my motors back in by feb or march then I'm in..getting ready to place an order for some beefier stuff..Thanks Teague marine:)

Re: Open Ocean Racing
 

The Cats will win