looking to develop large race cats eventually
 

Hi and nice to meet everyone on the forum. Im a college student right now studying business, but my passion along with cars has always been offshore powerboats. My father worked for Talon Marine and I always use to visit the shop every week when I was younger.
Anyway I attended a design college for two years, things got too expensive and now im taking the business route. My friend and I want to start a super boat company eventually, but we are dead in the water as to how to go about this. Below are some boats I came up with and Ill add more if the forum shows intrest. Thanks for your time and hope to talk with you all in the future-rob

http://i22.tinypic.com/2eaqlwh.jpg
http://i24.tinypic.com/w6qbzs.jpg
http://i20.tinypic.com/j0ioo1.jpg
http://i24.tinypic.com/14afv2o.jpg
http://i22.tinypic.com/2njah6q.jpg

Start were you are, design and build radio control (RC). Then build a small O/B. If it works keep going, and so on, and so on.

I would imagine that tooling for boats of that size is going to be HUGE money. Then even building one is again huge money. The boats look cool but what is to say that they will perform. You are in extreamly tough company at that level of boat. Do you think that these designs will out perform say a Skater or MTI? I don't mean to discourage you on this just some things to think about.

Jon

Entrepreneurship is wonderful and never to be discouraged. However, the high-performance marine industry is crowded with people doing just what you want to do. We've had industry legends like Bobby Saccenti and Craig Barrie start new boat companies and sell only a few (or one) of their designs.

Now that you're in business school, they'll teach you some of this but here's a preview- Wgat's your "value proposition". What I mean is, what can you provide to the marketplace that someone isn't doing right now? After you develop that value proposition, show it to 100 potential customers- real people who can and will buy your product. If 80% say WOW and 20% want to write you a check on the spot, you've got a real business.

If you were my son, I'd tell you to stay in business school, get an advanced degree and make damn sure you graduated at the top of your class. Then make a fortune doing "something". Then, buy a boat- or work with an architect and build one of your own design.

Maybe take time and talk to some of the people who have started their own boat business, the lines are nice but your going to have to prove performance before anyone drops big money on a cat....................

I would encourage you to continue your passion, however maybe think of going to work for a company the builds Catamarans, say Eliminator, Spectre, Talon,MTI, Skater, Awsome>>>>>> it would be great experience and you could learn everything from lay up schedules, to weight ratios, structural stresses, and so on.

WILL:cool-smiley-026:

Yes, A Business Plan...
 

Yes, Chris has some good advice there. I would get Gary Armingtons phone number from your dad & give him a call. He's a nice guy & can answer all you & your business partners specific questions. Gary was your age once too! lol Good luck in your endeavors.:drink:

Make friends while you're in college with marine engineering students, electrical engineers, architects, mechanical engineers, marketing students, and other students who are studying in the fields that you would be working with in the future to develop your boat line. Then, if you end up making enough money to start your company, you already know who to go to to help get it started.

Are you looking to build for race only? Most manufacturers build race boats to sell their pleasure/poker run boats. Pleasure/poker run boats may not be the fastest, but comfort, features, fit and finish, durability,and styling all come into play.

It is very competative and very expensive undertaking. But that doesn't mean you can't do it!!

I thank you all for your encouragement and words of advice. As to building cats for pleasure/poker runs I'd be up for that also. Almost every company that has race cats has a pleasure version and I think if i could get established and off and running I'd persue this avenue.
What I plan to do is graduate with a very respected business degree, get a job with Skater,MTI, Mystic, Nor-tec etc...then once I learn about the boat business and gain some friends through the industry I will try to break away and start my own company.
Ideally I just need two things Money lol and recognition in a product that people will want. My goals for my company are Craftsmanship,Performance and Innovation. I plan on producing three models in the future, a 34' Race cat, light with capacity for some big engines. 44' Race/Pokerrun cat with class leading performance and a 55' Race cat for the European offshore Racing series. Most of this sounds like a pipe dream, but Im really going to try and make it work.

Once you learn about the boat business , take a week off and then quit - haha.

Irwin Jacobs, the bilionaire owner of Genmar (which is the world's largest privately owned boat company), gave his key to succes:

"Fill a need."

Is there a great need for another line of large racing/pleasure catamarans? No.

That said, follow your dream. But do it with your eyes wide open. As someone else pointed out, your proposed cat line will be up against Skater and MTI. You'll be fighting for market share top-flight "newcomers" like Mystic and Doug Wright.

Your customer base, though well-to-do, is tiny.

Is your goal to get rich? If so, find another business. (And fill a need). Is your goal to create an amazing catamaran. If so, follow your dream knowing that it might not make you rich, that it might well go the other way, but that you are doing what you love.

My goal is to build a world class cat, that is competitive with the likes of skater,Mti etc... I want to develop this boat company based on my passion for offshore boats. Getting rich would be great, but my goal is like i stated before to develop an awesome offshore cat(s) and follow my passion and love for offshore boats.

There are lots of boat building forums out there and lots of info available. Start scouring the web and you'll find tons.

The best way to learn how to build big boats is to start building small boats- bigger one's are basically just a matter of scale. Modells, as suggested are an excellent place to start too. Build something in your garage that's 18 or 20' long and move up from there. many of the smaller-boat racers build their own hulls so there's probably alot of info available there.

I still have a dream to produce a nice 28-30 powerboat, but I wasn't going to starve trying right out of school. I just work hard and try to keep my eyes open for oppurtunities while I make enough to enjoy boating. I've heard most people who work in the boating industry no longer enjoy "boating" because its like going to work. IMO - I don't think that MTI or Nortech gives two chits about a business degree. I think they would be more interested in someone with a technical education in fiberglass, composits, or marine technician. I looked into all and they are very cheap and can take from 6 weeks (fiberglass) to 1 year (mechanic). I did go to school with a guy who installed stereos in cars, who then went on to installing stereos in bajas, who then went on to installing stereos in fountains, who then went on to selling fountains, who then went on to operating/managing a dealership and becoming the biggest fountain and formula dealership in north Texas (LegendMarine).

Do a search on the Forum for "splashing", it's certainly worked for a lot of companies! :D

Something you might want to consider is taking a tour of the Formula plant in Decatur, Indiana. It is an incredible example of craftsmanship and detail run by family and integrity. The employees enjoy their jobs and are very enthusiastic from top to bottom. They may not build cats, but I think they would be very interested in accommodating someone with potential such as yourself. Maybe you could integrate a trip into one of your class projects. I could give you names to contact and a personal reference if you are interested.

Another person you might want to contact is Phil @ Lipship in Miami. Very highly respected and a very personable gentleman. He arranged a tour of the Cigarette plant for me and a buddy even though they were closed preparing for the Miami boat show last February.

Here are a few more boat hulls I came up with in sketch form though

http://i20.tinypic.com/v7tfo4.jpg
http://i20.tinypic.com/2afn9f4.jpg
http://i20.tinypic.com/10cn913.jpg

Man, nice drawings. You seem to have some talent there kid. If this is what you want I say stick with it. I have thought about the same kind of idea's before also. It's really a long shot though as I haven't gone to school so I'm a little shy on the design part. Sometime in the near future I would like to open my own fiberglass shop and plan on having a "special" part in the back corner for my own build. I plan on building a small, 18' or so outboard cat and just see how it goes from there. I'm kinda like you, I have a passion for high performance boats/race boats but had kids right out of school and it kept me from going into college. No regrets though. Just gonna take some time. I suggest you also start out by designing and building a small 18' or so, get that dailed in just right and move up from there. BTW... those sketches look really cool.

Brandon

Looks like you should be in the business of doing boat illiustrations more than boat building.

nice seeing someone else out there around my age with the same aspirations. the 3D models look good. so do the sketches. keep it up dude. :D

i want to be the guy who has the enthusiasm and love of the sport who really appreciates it but still wants to manage and run it like a real business. im going for Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering. im probably gonna go for a Drafting Diploma right after this year though, have a skill set. Eventually i want to go for Business Mgmt. before i get out on my own. before then im shooting for a firm like MPYD because of their reputation (the fact theyve leaned away from performance isnt quite that appetizing though, but the OL Cat...) or working with Mystic because of the fact they produce such an advanced product.

How much opportunity is their really in these small custom builders? It seems like they probably have designers they are happy with (judging by the product), and it doesn't take too many people on the business end to run a company with so low of production numbers? Therefore, I would think the only real chance at working there is the fiberglass laying and rigging depts, which you probably aren't interested in.

I think if you really want in the industry you have to start with someone like Brunswick who owns large volume companies such as Sea Ray, Baja, etc. Once you've proven your skill there then you could try and move to a custom race builder on the design or business side. I still would picture them as being more of a family run style business though.

What you want to do is extremely easy. Just develop a flux capacitor, hook it up to a delorean, then go bac in time and be born as John Cosker.
www.mysticpowerboats.com

For big racing cats, the skater and MTI owners are jumping ship to mystic.

ARE FOR REAL? :Whatever:

I've got to agree with everything RedDog said. Go tour a plant or two. Formula opens their doors pretty much on request. About two years ago, the Chicago guys set up a tour on a Saturday, and me and the wife ran up there to tag-along. They were great, opened the doors on a Sat. and took us through the entire facility, answered all the questions (to the best of their knowledge of specifics in certain areas), and even handed out swag-bags at the end of the tour (brochures, DVD's, CanCoolies...).
Very cool tour.
If you're dead set on doing this, when you get out of school, get a job with a reputable boat builder - in any capacity. Once you're in the door, learn EVERYTHING, I mean EVERYTHING that goes on. Learn how to do every job function in the building that they will let you learn, and this can go down to "how do I get spilled resin off the floor, and make sure the area is usable to work in quickly and safely".
Having the skills from school in your back pocket, and showing what you can do on occasion, and asking intelligent questions to the right people about your designs will teach you much more than you learned in school.
Good Luck.

RlJ676 is correct: There is not a lot of opportunity in big-cat design. There also isn't much of a market. Sure, you see them out there. Yes, there are people who can afford them. But you see more Bayliners ... and there are plenty of people who can afford them.

Still, someone has to be the next Peter Hledin. Could it be this young man? Perhaps, but he'll be in line behind the likes of John Cosker of Mystic, who has years of experience AND a degree in naval architecture.

Not quite sure about "Skater and MTI owners jumping ship for Mystic," though. That statement seems a bit over the top. Neither Skater or MTI are hurting for business. I imagine that Mystic will make a dent, but at this point that blanket statement is a little premmature.

Yes im for real, you dont just start by building big fast offshore cats. It takes a lot of time. As for the skater/mti owers jumping over, i was referring to Geico and Bud select. Cintron didnt own an Mti or Skater but is getting the next Mystic. Mystic does not make one smaller then class-1, extreme, so the SCL guys arent buying them. Im not sure what the :Whatever: is for.

Very true. The fast boats now are "engineered" to be fast. Computational fluid dynamics for flow; purpose built computer programs for stability at high speeds. Finite element analysis to determine loading and resulting stresses, reducing weight in the layup. Last couple of years this technology has been embraced by some in the industry. Speeds exceeding 200 mph require this information; there need to be as few unknowns as possible.

I’m about a year away from a BS in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering at UNO. Class teaches the fundamentals, the theory, the technical engineering skills; but NOTHING compares to hands-on real world experience to put the books in perspective.

fubar260 and offshorecatcrazy, I’m your age too; best advise I can give is to get working in a shop like bouyhunter said. Rigging boats for the past couple of years has been the best experience I’ve had. The mechanical, electrical and hydraulic systems need to be set up properly to allow the boat to perform as it was designed to. There is a lot more to it than just bolting on some drives, throwing a couple motors in and connecting throttles and a wheel. A good hull is worthless without this knowledge.

Check out Professional Boatbuilder’s article on Peter Hledin if you haven’t already.
http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20071011/

LostinBoston and fubar260, where are you guys in school?

Brad Holbrook

Lostinboston,

Three teams moving over, and all props to Mystic, does not make a "jumping ship" trend. Skater and MTI are fine and will be fine. Mystic is doing really well, and that's very cool.

I don't know what the "whatever" was for, either.

Go Sox.

3 teams is HUGE when it represents THE 3 teams in the extreme or unlimited classes. Sure CRC and Big thunder ran LOTO, but where were they the rest of the year.

Skater and MTI are fine and will be fine becasue their target market is not the same target marget at Mystic, and they also build a great product, but not the best product. They sell many more pleasure boats then race boats. Mystic sells race boats and performance yachts. I love the Mystic but i cant afford one. I cant afford an mti or skater either. Mystic also does designs for OEM's. See the deep impact thread or some concept threads. They also have a few more cool designs coming out.

Lostin,

The majority of catamarans racing offshore next year will be Skater and MTI. The majority of offshore racing cats sold and built next year will be Skater and MTI. They will range in size from 36 to 46 feet. That makes them relatively "big," though substantially smaller than the Mystic 50.

So there is no "global shift" (my words not yours) to Mystic going on. But this fact takes nothing away from the achievements of Mystic. Nor does Skater's and MTI's production of pleasure boats take away from their considerable success as racing cats. That both build pleasure boats is irrelevant.

I have no argument with the quality of Mystic, or its (very) advanced technology. Your point of view, well-informed and reasonble, just seems a tad to bullish. But you did say the "big" racing cats are going with Mystic and if by that you meant just Unlimited and Extreme, the numbers are beginning to support that.

I can't afford a Mystic, either. Hell, I can't afford your Nor-Tech. But I can dream.

As you take more business classes you will learn about ROE, ROC, NPV, and IRR.

Manufacturing businesses are capital intensive, i.e. the initial tooling requires a large cash outflow.

Reggie Fountain was an insurance salesman, with a law degree- I'm guessing he was successful in that business and used his cashflow to start Fountain. Just Speculation on my part.

Irwin Jacobs, is a gazillionaire "corporate raider" his parents probably made 250K a year, yet they considered themselves middle class. Just speculation on my part.

Randy Scism (MTI) was probably paid lots of cash by the oil guys. Learned setup and design on their budget(damn near unlimited). Just speculation on my part.

Peter Hedlin (Skater)said his wife supported him for a while(not 100% guys), and I sense he is a frugile low consumption person (thats a compliment). And he got/gets his hands dirty (saving money and understanding the process). I suspect he's the kinda guy who would sleep in his factory if need be (just like the Honda guy). And Randy Scism(MTI) got alot of his knowledge and design info from Peter. Just speculation on my part.

The Nor Tech guys kinda appeared out out nowwhere, and where the hell they got the money to move to america and start a boat company- beats me.

Don Aronow was wealthy from the real estate business, liked racing boats, and realized if he formed a company he could expense his racing efforts as R&D.

The Mystic Powerboats guy (Dave Callen I thinks) sold one of his companys(internet or some thing) for over $400 million. Now he has money for tooling..... and lots of pretty women. Just speculation on my part.

Doug Wright is essentially a tooling company (for others at first) and could produce his own tooling at a low cost. But he need to buy those big cnc axis machines with some money. Just speculation on my part.

The guy who wrote the doom game software made $25 million and lost a couple of it trying to be a boat manufacturer. I thinks he spent a lot cash on cnc everything and then realized...wow I gots to sell 50 boats this year to make money...and I only sold 4. Just speculation on my part.

Orignal Poster...You appear talented in the graphic arts/computer rendering arena. I work for one of the Big 3(cars)(whatever) and the design studios are full of guys like you that are well paid. Pinafirinia (sp) styles cars and boats. From your drawings/renderings, I think you could do that kind of work. Maybe you could create a highly stylized skater, etc. If you look at the Nor Tech's theres a lot of styling cues from italion autos.

Your renderings look good, get paid to do that work, maybe with a big boat manufacturer.

But what the hell do I know? I design grocery getters.

You speculate a lot, huh?

VTEC's post simplified the entire boat manufacturing business. All you need is lots of money and low expectation of getting it back.

Out of all of them, only Hledin bootstrapped his company. It also took many planets aligning for that to happen. Had he tried to break in today, there would be little chance of his success. The Skater 24 put him on the map- he didn't start with the 46.

The Mystc Powers boats guy is John Cosker. Dave Callan was the Callan Marine guy and was one of their customers. Mystic has a unique business model which has allowed it to steadily grow and will continue to.

Chris Sunkin makes an excellent point: Peter Hledin would have a hard time pulling it off today, and he didn't start with a big cat. Likely, he would be fatally undercapitalized.

As Lostinboston has pointed out, Mystic has made significant inroads in the big racing cat market. It's worth noting that Mystic is hardly an overnight success. John Cosker has been at it for quite awhile.

Vtec points out what's been stated already: It takes big bucks to start a boat company and it's a high-risk business.

I'm not sure that it matters how anyone made his money (Tell Dave Callan he didn't work hard for it; for that matter, Irwin Jacobs is a notorious workaholic.) The salient point is that it takes tons and tons of capital to get boat companies started, the boat business is risky. That applies even if the money comes from a rich kid's trust fund.

Thanks alot for your overview of the boat industry it really put things into perspective for me. Im assuming you work for GM? On a side note will that camaro be out before 09?

I went to CCS in detroit for two years and then money played a big role in starting over. I was a product design student , but originally went there with the intent of working for one of the big three automotive companies. I have a huge passion for the offshore boats and muscle cars.

Now that im working towards my business degree and having two years of design under my belt this Cat company is basicly a dream of mine. One of my best buddies goes to Coventry and has a few more pennies in his pockets so he's sticking it out to get his BFA in ID for transportation.

I have basicly a few inventions that are very practical and if they work out they'll be very profitable having talked with a patent lawyer already and this is how Im hoping to get the money to start my own boat company one day. After I work for a Boat or car company for a while on the business end Id like to move on to be my own boss and starting the company.

A couple weeks ago we talked about patents. Run a search- enjoyable reading. :)