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Originally Posted by MikeyFIN
(Post 2556294)
Funny no one mentioned Larry Smith yet...regarding state of the art construction he was at the top of the game in monohulls at the time Apache came into the scene...
I was never quite sure what Larry Smith designed......... since, to be honest, I could never tell the difference between Scarabs and Cigarettes. |
Originally Posted by Airpacker
(Post 2556293)
Drag??? What drag???
I do love the duo props...at least you solved the torque issue |
Originally Posted by Comanche3Six
(Post 2555506)
That is a beautiful helo shot. What size waves?
Man that's the best picture of any boat I've ever had. The guy who shot it is a friend of Zastro's, and offered to print a fullsize for me but stopped returning messages for some reason. :( That's the only copy I have and it is too small to enlarge. I was gonna pay too! :grinser010: I would rather Mark Smith or someone who ran the run give you the wave size. Seems everyone has their own version of how big water is, so I'd like you to have an unbiased opinion! :D |
Originally Posted by T2x
(Post 2556221)
no........... for many reasons:
1. A single engine cat installation fills the tunnel exit adding compression and disturbing natural airflow. This engine placement will also tend to "trip" the hull upon re-entry after going airborne, perhaps increasing the tendency of the craft to stuff. The lone partial exception to this rule may be the above mentioned Champ boats which have such streamlined lower units and small propellers (see my avatar and prop pix below) that there is not as much disturbance or drag..... but there is still more than a dual application would create. 2. Twin engines allow for counter rotation and, if you spin them out, following the laws of nature and physics as God intended, you will achieve neutral torque and balance from the prop rotation. 3. In twin engine installations the sponsons protect the center section or upper drive components from random blasts of water at speed thereby adding durability to the drives. (when we raced triple outboard cats the center engine durability was always lower than the outboard mounted motors). Again you also reduce drag since most, if not all, of the gearcases' frontal area is "hidden" by the sponsons. Of course these are just my humble opinions, based on decades of testing and development, rather than the "facts" that are readily available at Poker Run Cocktail parties and in West Coast Cat ads........... or from "State of the Art" Apache fans......:p T2x |
Originally Posted by BLee
(Post 2556354)
Man that's the best picture of any boat I've ever had. The guy who shot it is a friend of Zastro's, and offered to print a fullsize for me but stopped returning messages for some reason. :( That's the only copy I have and it is too small to enlarge. I was gonna pay too!
I would rather Mark Smith or someone who ran the run give you the wave size. Seems everyone has their own version of how big water is, so I'd like you to have an unbiased opinion! :D |
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by MikeyFIN
(Post 2556299)
right there in the picture...if you can´t see it you´ve been into too many poker run cocktails...
Look closer Mikey. I have but two prop blades and part of a skeg in the water. Thats it. No bullet in the water at all. Hey Rich, notice how the center pod is much shorter than the sponsons? It runs on the outsides only once at speed unlike an American Offshore 26 or Talon 25 etc which ride on the center and use the sponsons as training wheels:D |
Originally Posted by T2x
(Post 2555601)
Nope and nope........
You have to see a Champ boat turn to believe it.........I speak from first hand racing experience in the cockpit.......the G's are indescribable. From the Champ Boat website......... "High Speed Turns and Pure Excitement High speeds, sharp turns and constant action • Due to the shape of their tunnel hulls, Champ Boats are able to turn almost instantaneously • Incurring more "G" forces than any other racing machine on earth • Enables them to race close to river banks and lake shores • Provides excellent spectator viewing Champ Class (F1) • Nearly identical to the Formula 1 machines raced internationally on the UIM circuit • Champ Boats are 17 feet long and weigh just 1,150 pounds with driver • 380-horsepower engines enable them to reach speeds of 140 miles per hour " T2x I read that but have not seen any figures, Here is what they are currently claiming for f-1 cars. around 900hp in a 1334lb chassis They accelerate at 1.45g, brake at up to 6g's and corner at 2g at 70mph, 3g at 130 and 5-6g at 190 Turn 8 at the Istanbul Park circuit, a 190° relatively tight 4-apex corner, in which the cars maintain speeds between 265 km/h (165 mph) and 285 km/h (in 2006) and experience between 4.5g and 5.5g for 7 seconds - the longest sustained hard cornering in Formula 1. Reno air racers unlimited class planes are often equipped for g-suits as some planes are capable of extreme g forces. Obviously the champ boats are very spectacular and presumably utilize the very latest in modern data-logging, I would like to see the numbers that back up their claim BTW the jet sprinters down under claim the following Performance Acceleration 2G’s force 0 to 120 kph (0 to 75 mph) in 2.3 seconds Cornering 5 to 6 G’s of cornering force From 900-1200 HP in a 1200lb boat |
??????
Originally Posted by T2x
(Post 2556230)
Comanche3Dollar:
You took the words right out of Thor's mouth. Tee TWO EXX Tee TWO EXX or Tee TWO EX ???? |
Originally Posted by Frequency
(Post 2556321)
It depends, are you standing still or moving? You can turn tighter faster on one leg.
I'm glad we're past the arguing stage. We're into the group hug, slapping each other on the back, remember the good ole' days stage. A question was asked that wasn't answered. Can a cat turn like a vee? I agree totally that a Champ boat will out turn a 47 Apache. What about size for size, weight for weight? I've never been in a cat and am curious. :) In both hull types, I wouldn't suggest continual race turns in a chop if the drives are spinning in...... T2x |
Originally Posted by Airpacker
(Post 2556369)
Look closer Mikey. I have but two prop blades and part of a skeg in the water. Thats it. No bullet in the water at all.
Hey Rich, notice how the center pod is much shorter than the sponsons? T2x |
Originally Posted by Philip
(Post 2556446)
what is the proper spelling?
Tee TWO EXX or Tee TWO EX ???? |
Originally Posted by Wobble
(Post 2556408)
I read that but have not seen any figures,
Here is what they are currently claiming for f-1 cars. around 900hp in a 1334lb chassis They accelerate at 1.45g, brake at up to 6g's and corner at 2g at 70mph, 3g at 130 and 5-6g at 190 Turn 8 at the Istanbul Park circuit, a 190° relatively tight 4-apex corner, in which the cars maintain speeds between 265 km/h (165 mph) and 285 km/h (in 2006) and experience between 4.5g and 5.5g for 7 seconds - the longest sustained hard cornering in Formula 1. Reno air racers unlimited class planes are often equipped for g-suits as some planes are capable of extreme g forces. Obviously the champ boats are very spectacular and presumably utilize the very latest in modern data-logging, I would like to see the numbers that back up their claim BTW the jet sprinters down under claim the following Performance Acceleration 2G’s force 0 to 120 kph (0 to 75 mph) in 2.3 seconds Cornering 5 to 6 G’s of cornering force From 900-1200 HP in a 1200lb boat A typical Champ boat turn is 180 degrees at 25-40 foot diameter and speeds over 100.......in under 2 seconds. NOTHING else will reverse its direction at those speeds in that time span........ simply because airplanes have nothing to grab on to and tire adhesion on a car or motorcycle will fail.... T2x |
Originally Posted by BLee
(Post 2556360)
Have you written a book yet? Can I financially back it, or at least get the bar tab after having a court reporter back up your mental hard drive?? :drink:
T2x |
My friends race champ boats and Formula 2 boats and I have been told they pull 5 g's in the corner. I have been to Indy car and boat races and the Champ boats are scary how hard they turn. I once was asked to hold a radar gun on a Champ boat testing for top speed. I was standing on the end of a pier watching him come staright for me. The first time he did it I stated backing up real fast as I was convinced he was going to kill me and then he turned around 75' from the pier and was going the other direction in about a 50' radious. There is no car in the world that can do that. They tell they stay full throttle and trim down, turn and hit the up button as soon as they turn to pop the nose coming out of the corner. I have been offered to drive one of those boats a few times and I declined.
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Originally Posted by Brad Zastrow
(Post 2556462)
My friends race champ boats and Formula 2 boats and I have been told they pull 5 g's in the corner. I have been to Indy car and boat races and the Champ boats are scary how hard they turn. I once was asked to hold a radar gun on a Champ boat testing for top speed. I was standing on the end of a pier watching him come staright for me. The first time he did it I stated backing up real fast as I was convinced he was going to kill me and then he turned around 75' from the pier and was going the other direction in about a 50' radious. There is no car in the world that can do that. They tell they stay full throttle and trim down, turn and hit the up button as soon as they turn to pop the nose coming out of the corner. I have been offered to drive one of those boats a few times and I declined.
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Originally Posted by Brad Zastrow
(Post 2556462)
My friends race champ boats and Formula 2 boats and I have been told they pull 5 g's in the corner. I have been to Indy car and boat races and the Champ boats are scary how hard they turn. I once was asked to hold a radar gun on a Champ boat testing for top speed. I was standing on the end of a pier watching him come staright for me. The first time he did it I stated backing up real fast as I was convinced he was going to kill me and then he turned around 75' from the pier and was going the other direction in about a 50' radious. There is no car in the world that can do that. They tell they stay full throttle and trim down, turn and hit the up button as soon as they turn to pop the nose coming out of the corner. I have been offered to drive one of those boats a few times and I declined.
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Originally Posted by Wobble
(Post 2556473)
I found one quote from Terry Rinker that mentioned 4-5 g's. I completely agree that it appears that the champ boats are generating amazing cornering speeds, however if g-force is a measure of cornering speed in a given radius then a higher number would mean a higher speed?
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Originally Posted by OldSchool
(Post 2556366)
10 TO 12 FOOTER'S....AND NOBODY THAT WAS IN A SKATER GOT A DROP ON THEM!!!!!!:D:evilb::D
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Originally Posted by Wobble
(Post 2556473)
I found one quote from Terry Rinker that mentioned 4-5 g's. I completely agree that it appears that the champ boats are generating amazing cornering speeds, however if g-force is a measure of cornering speed in a given radius then a higher number would mean a higher speed?
In addition, the older hulls turned 90 degrees in a fraction of a second...almost a controlled "hook". My right arm came out of almost every heat, bleeding...even if I had a padded cushion on the cockpit....The friction and impacts caused the abrasions. I actually did hook in one race and my body went right through the cockpit leaving a tied sneaker on the throttle peddle. My belief is that we spiked at well over 7-8 g's at the actual turning instant in those days....... To this day I have "boat racers neck", a painful reminder of the helmet trying to continue in its original direction while the rest of me went with the seat twice each lap. Thee tew ECKS |
Rinker and most of the Champ field use Aim sports MXL data loggers. They record all axis of g force, I will find out tonight and see what the real numbers are.
RT |
Originally Posted by RBT
(Post 2556532)
Rinker and most of the Champ field use Aim sports MXL data loggers. They record all axis of g force, I will find out tonight and see what the real numbers are.
RT T2x |
Well this Canadian is still waiting to see of something will float with a pair of CHAMP motors on it!.
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Originally Posted by RBT
(Post 2556548)
Well this Canadian is still waiting to see of something will float with a pair of CHAMP motors on it!.
T2x |
Direct from Rinkers team.
In race conditions, sustained and consistent 5.5g's in the turns, 2g's accelerating. |
Originally Posted by Frequency
(Post 2556478)
Not necessarily. The g's you pull depends on your velocity and the radius of the turn. The tighter the radius, the higher the g's at a given speed.
G forces in a turn are measured radially from the center of the turn. Use the equation below to calculate the radial g force: A = v^2 / r where v is your forward velocity, r is the radius of the turn and A is the acceleration (g force). :) |
Originally Posted by Frequency
(Post 2556599)
Wow, now I'm quoting myself... :D
G forces in a turn are measured radially from the center of the turn. Use the equation below to calculate the radial g force: A = v^2 / r where v is your forward velocity, r is the radius of the turn and A is the acceleration (g force). :) you don't need a lot of velocity to have high acceleration changes.... actually in most motorsport cases, high g counts come from sudden decels (wrecks) or sudden directional changes.... not so much from high velocities. remember a sneeze and cough can generate 2-3 g's... |
Originally Posted by Sean H
(Post 2556608)
remember a sneeze and cough can generate 2-3 g's...
Which begs the question, how many g's can an old fart handle?.......:D T2x |
Just trying to dumb it down for the masses. :D:D
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Originally Posted by T2x
(Post 2556616)
Which begs the question, how many g's can an old fart handle?.......:D
T2x |
Originally Posted by RBT
(Post 2556575)
Direct from Rinkers team.
In race conditions, sustained and consistant 5.5g's in the turns, and 2g accelerating. I think we can agree that F-1 Champ boats are the most agile racing machines on the planet:evilb: The Reno unlimited air racers obviously generate much higher g-loads (um... vector acceleration deltas)in the air, and F-1 cars can pull 6g's on the ground. |
Originally Posted by Frequency
(Post 2556624)
Or the more interesting question: If you sneeze and fart at the same time, do the forces add or subtract?
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Originally Posted by Wobble
(Post 2556641)
I can just picture him spinning end over end:D
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Originally Posted by Wobble
(Post 2556641)
I can just picture him spinning end over end:D
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I am not sure how relevant this is, but I come from small outboards. We had/have a class called Mod-vp, the tunnel hulls absolutely crushed the Vee hulls, even T2x's favorite Allison Crafts. They dominated top speed, turning, and really excelled in the rough ( the vees would initially would accelerate harder... untill we got air under us). Now it isn't rough like offshore, but on a size scale, big waves. And like with most things, if you can span it you can run it.
Years ago I ran down a 24' Skater in 2 foot chop ( enough that the Skater was taking air)... in an STV at 110 mph, there isn't an Allison on earth that can run in half that water at near that speed. Albeit the water conditions were that I could span the waves and if the frequency were much different it could have halved my speed. ....for whatever that is worth. |
So we have concluded that cats are not inherently more dangerous than vees. In addition they are faster and handle better length for length. So what, then, is the problem?
Simply put, because cats can run faster than vees, comfortably, in most conditions, people who own them tend to spend more time at higher speeds. ( My 28 Skater probably averages 90-100 mph while cruising. No comparable length vee hull can make that claim). In addition the owners of the most exotic cats don't necessarily have the seat time or experience to handle these speeds on the water and, in truth cats feel like they are going slower than a vee due to the added surface/wave contact and occilations inherent in a mono hull. More time at higher speeds in a craft which feels slower to an inexperienced driver is not a good recipe for safety and this, IMHO, is the reason that cats have received a bum rap. The truth is that insurance companies need to concentrate on average speeds of a specific craft...... as well as driver experience at speed........and set rates accordingly. I see no reason why a mega powered, 150 mph, Outer Limits or Fountain Vee should have any lower rate than a 150 mph Skater Cat of similar length. In fact the rates should probably be higher for the vee. On the other hand a 28 foot Pantera with similar power to my 28 Skater should have a lower rate......it simply can't go as fast nor would you want to. T2x |
Originally Posted by T2x
(Post 2556800)
So we have concluded that cats are not inherently more dangerous than vees. In addition they are faster and handle better length for length. So what, then, is the problem?
Simply put, because cats can run faster than vees, comfortably, in most conditions, people who own them tend to spend more time at higher speeds. ( My 28 Skater probably averages 90-100 mph while cruising. No comparable length vee hull can make that claim). In addition the owners of the most exotic cats don't necessarily have the seat time or experience to handle these speeds on the water and, in truth cats feel like they are going slower than a vee due to the added surface/wave contact and occilations inherent in a mono hull. More time at higher speeds in a craft which feels slower to an inexperienced driver is not a good recipe for safety and this, IMHO, is the reason that cats have received a bum rap. The truth is that insurance companies need to concentrate on average speeds of a specific craft...... as well as driver experience at speed........and set rates accordingly. I see no reason why a mega powered, 150 mph, Outer Limits or Fountain Vee should have any lower rate than a 150 mph Skater Cat of similar length. In fact the rates should probably be higher for the vee. On the other hand a 28 foot Pantera with similar power to my 28 Skater should have a lower rate......it simply can't go as fast nor would you want to. T2x Also, the thought that because your boat "will go" a certain top speed equates to that's what you always are doing is asenine to me. That'd be like insuring cars based on top speed alone. I'd only be interested in severely speed limited "quick cars". 0-100 in 8, but since you can't go over 100 insurance would be cheap. |
Originally Posted by rlj676
(Post 2556826)
That's all very reasonable, but for some reason insurance basically refuses to cover a new cat owner even in a 75 mph cat, while willing to write it for a V. That's where I get lost in their logic.
On another note, what is a 75 mph cat? .... T2x |
Originally Posted by T2x
(Post 2556561)
It will be at Tonawanda......
T2x |
Another question for T2X: In regards to trimarans (pretty funny analogy by the way). Is a trimaran (center pod) cat more or less safe than a true cat? Can a trimaran flip more easily than a true cat? Can I assume the true cat is faster than the same size trimaran cat??? Which one is more likely to blow over? Which one will handle the rough better? Which one typically has a better ride, or is there any difference in ride quality? Sorry for all the questions.
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Originally Posted by Frequency
(Post 2556321)
It depends, are you standing still or moving? You can turn tighter faster on one leg.
I'm glad we're past the arguing stage. We're into the group hug, slapping each other on the back, remember the good ole' days stage. A question was asked that wasn't answered. Can a cat turn like a vee? I agree totally that a Champ boat will out turn a 47 Apache. What about size for size, weight for weight? I've never been in a cat and am curious. :) http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...4/IMG_2968.jpg |
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