Composite Vs Aluminium hulls
 

I have a customer that wants to get an extreemly fast offshore vee bottom. I have given him my suggestions, and now I want to show him what a wealth of knowledge this board has to offer. :D
Please be specific, pro's and cons for each.
We are looking at 1200 to 1500 hp,not turbine.
140 to 150 mph max.
Pacific style water, big swells.
Thanks,
pat W

a 39 or a 47 Fountain Super V ( the real super v's not the new super B's) canopy race boats can run at this speed if tall gears are used. I hope he has some experience at running over a 100 in the ocean. Over a 120 is a real hand full. Talking about it and actually doing it is some very serious ****.;)

39 SUTPHEN with a pair of 1500 HP Bandit engines with numberVI dry sumps will run 125 to 130 in almost any water condition. Good Luck

I love Richie, but the 39' Sutphen is too small for this task. The Fountains and Hustlers are not up to the rough water aspect...."Fast won't last"...... Probably will carry more top speed than the following...but what good is that if you're upside down.

Three choices at present......

Apache 45-46 (whatever).....Excellent rough water many available used... probably triple engined........ 125-135

Larry Smith Scarab... Still available new...triple engined 125-135

Cougar 45- Aluminum or composite..... Awesome in rough water but may have too slow a bottom design to move much over 125.

Again this is lethal speed area........ Who is throttling this bad boy? Please don't say "Highly experienced pleasure boater with over 3 years behind the wheel of his Mariah."

T2x

We will be keeping the speed limited by ratio and prop. The customer wants the potential to do that speed. What I am after is the durability of hulls and the different problems occured over time. Why aluminum hulls are no longer used ect.. Why composite hulls delam ect... can a state of the art boat last?
Thanks, pat W

my Phantom with 1300's ran 130 but Shifter said 140 to 150. 125 -130 is miles away from 140 -150 in a V-bottom. 47 Fountain (Popeye) will probly do it with tall gears. Next would be a 42 Outer Limits with say at least 1400's. The rest of the builders are not gonna get you there. My opinion and from experience.:D

My customer has a boat in mind. It is aluminum with a canard that is active via gyro and has a lifting style wing on it that was like Buzzi ran in class 1 in the late 80's. So with that kind of power to weight it should scoot right along. The problem is the hull.. If alu is so good what is bad about it. I know the problems with composit.
Why don't more boat builders use aluminium?
I just want to give him every option before he gets too far into a deal.
pat W:confused:

Aluminum: Keep a rivet gun and a rubber mallet handy!:eek: :eek: The finish is terrible on Aluminum along with the bottom never holding a Blueprinted state. FRP: Today with all the vacuum bagging, epoxy resins and core materials, I personally think you just can't build a better boat with that process. Most builders are really getting it down to a science now, and it should be trusted not to come apart. Just don't demand that they take out alot of the glass to save weight. The vacuum process will save you plenty by removing the excess resin that is not needed. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck with whatever material you choose.

Pat,

For what it's worth I think the comment on Fiber Reinforced Plastics being able to hold their intended shape is the answer to this one. A bottom capable of that speed most stay stable and not take a set on impact.

If you look at the physical properties of the two material options you will generally find that the two are close on tensile strength given various laminate patterns however usually the composite must be thicker, thus the advantage to aluminum in thinner section (Example an airliner skin). But when light weight creates the need for high flexural capability (Flex Modulus) then composites gain the advantage.

In high speed boating the impacts are enormous and in most cases localized on impact. Thus the need for Flexural strength to absorb, flex and return to shape. But remember that a composite is only as good as the manufacturing methodology and adherance to process. Poorly or quickly done the aluminum is more reliable.

Last comment, in most cases FRP is more easily shaped in the complex shapes that a high speed hull requires. Aluminum would require forming that will strech the metal and potentially create residual stresses or lower physical properties in localized areas.

Hope this helps!

Mark

look at it this way aluminum is recycable so after you destroy your boat you still can(no pun intended) get some money out of it.

Now we are getting somewhere.
Thanks for the help so far.

The real question is what would the ultimate "Mclaren F1" boat look like act like how many engines ect...
No cats please, not yet:D
This is a no holds barred "IF" you could have your own wish what would you want.

This is a serious question. not a poll or a quetionare.
This could become a reality and this will make a difference to the outcome of the project.
I know the normal answers but I am looking for something that "you" would buy.

The answers that are already here are great. Please keep it coming.
Thanks again.:)
pat W

The Advantages of Vacuum Bagging
 

Company: FOUNTAIN POWERBOATS INCORPORATED
Location: City of Washington
Beaufort County
Application: Fiberglass Boat Manufacturing (SIC 3731)
Process Modification: Equipment Change
Description: Conventional molding is not well suited for one
step lay-up with high strength-to-weight ratio
components which are cored with high performance
structural foam. Vacuum bag molding is probably
best suited for intermediate volume production of
small to medium size components. Products such as
seats, boat hatches, boat deck structures, cored
bulkheads, and other items with relatively shallow
draft molds are ideal for this type of processing.
Fountain Powerboats switched to vacuum bagging for
producing a number of small parts including engine
compartment hatch covers. Since the boats the
company produces are modeled after high
performance off shore racers, careful attention to
strength and weight are essential. The engine
hatch doors are basically flat panels with rounded
edges. They have a high strength foam core and a
finished thickness of approximately one inch.
Each unit is about twelve square feet in area.
When vacuum bags rather than spray guns are used
to deliver resin to the mold, pollution output can
be greatly reduced. Final distribution of the
resin to all layers of the lay-up is largely
controlled by the vacuum; therefore, gel coating
is the only step in vacuum bag requiring
atomization of the resin. Pumping or pouring
premixed catalyst and resin into a closed mold
eliminates fogging, bounceback, and overspray.
Vapor emissions and odor are further reduced by
confining the resins in the covered mold until
curing is complete. Quality and productivity may
also be improved as the vacuum bag molding system
produces parts with smooth surfaces and internal
structures which are free of voids and excess
resin.I am surprised to see this article mention Vacuum Bagging is only limited to small parts... :confused: Here is a LINK for Vacuum Bagging: TPICOMP.COM

Hey, where are the naked chicks?!

Seriously, this type of thread is the reason I come to OSO. Good to hear from you guys. Just start this type of thread in the technical Q&A forum so it doesn't get buried after a day.

There is a company in Canada that makes Hylite aluminum vee hulls. I saw a 40 something performance model a few years ago. I can't remember the details but there was something unique about the manufacturing process...something about the way the skin was supported in between major bulkheads...Don't have any details about power vs. speed, but it looked the part. Polyurethane paint, no rivets, welds not visible.

While we are blue skying, a company in Germany has developed a method of producing aluminum foam, to make strong but lightweight parts. Maybe an aluminum foam sheet would have the same resistance to impact as a well supported skin, without as much bracing, weight or welding. Kind of like coring in FRP.

Finally, I have heard that flex modulus is the reason wood is preferred to FRP in Formula tunnels. I don't know if that is still the case, but can someone describe the relative flexibility of wood, FRP and aluminum in a way that I can understand.

Oh yeah, the number for Hylite is (519) 326 - 0014.

The "Ultimate McLaren F1 boat" would:

1. Have the engine in the back(cat) not the front(vee).
2. Have wide low profile wheels/tires(cat), not spoked wheels(vee)
3. Have an aerodynamic body and fairings(cat), not a sedan body(vee)
4. Have a design speed that exceeded it's weight to horsepower potential (cat), not vice versa (vee)

5. Have maximum speed potential(cat) not run out of bottom at 100-110 mph (vee).

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

T2x

OK,
What ould "you" build, be very specific cat or vee or tri hull ect.....
Don"t you guys or girls have a dream boat? Not the two legged kind. wrong forum for that.:rolleyes:
pat W


more detail t2x:D I know this is tough to be serious on this board lately but I am hoping for real info and I will share what we are thinking also.

I could get very detailed , but I submit that a better example of the ultimate boat today exists in Pat Patel's new 46 Skater or Tom Cat 46's magnificent hull. This is where it's at today. Tomorrow's boats will derive from these hulls empirically.

T2x

HOW FAST DID YOU WANNA GO???
 

http://www.kenwarby.com/new_boat.htm :cool:

Hey Sharkey....How's by ya?

I've met Ken Warby and saw his new boat last year..... He is the luckiest man on the planet....to wit...... he basically straps a jet to his ass and sits in a hydro....lights the fuse and gets away with it....... so far.

I pray for him.

T2x

Pat's boat seems to be what people who have the$$$ get. Out of all the boats that I have driven the 46 was one of my favorites. I have not seen any pics of it yet. I heard it was fried. I tend to prefer rudder boats like the uim guys run. but the steering at low speed stinks.
Does Kens boat run a prop?
We are making some progress. What about the rest of the boat?
pat W:)

The 42 Outerlimits Rock-It runs near 140mph as an open-cockpit boat with twin 1200hp Eickerts and Number 6 drives. Perhaps that is the way to go. Additionally, the new sit-down 42 Outerlimits runs over 120mph with twin Merc 900SCs and should run better than 140mph with twin 1300 Sterlings, 1400 Eickerts, 1500 Torques, etc.

Don't know what else to tell you. At those speeds, I can only imagine that whatever happens is going to happen fast enough that who ever is running the boat will need to anticipate problems not react to them. Remember, just because someone can afford to buy a boat that is extremely fast, doesn't mean the person can run it.

T2x, Warm but very rainy. It's about time though, we really need it. If we don't get alot of rain soon, my 13 footer will be hitting the bottom of Barnegat Bay!:eek: :eek: :eek:

I think I'm getting old. I feel like I need a boat that is comfortible not fast. I have been fast on water,toooo fast. I don't think that anyone can tell how fast you are going unless you have gps or water pick-ups. Speed is really not an issue that is the only thing that seems people talk about when they talk about boats.
The faster the boats potential the safer they are made in most cases. I would only push a 100 mph in a boat just for a few secs now just to knock the cob webs out of my heart muscles. It seems to stop being fun after that.
The Outerlimits is an interresting boat I have yet to try one but I saw Rockit spank the cats in Pittsburg,Ca. a while ago. Do they have a canopied version yet?
more input :D
pat W

Pat, you are right about Rocket spanking the Super-Cats in the Pittsburg race. I talked to Bob about that and he thought is was amusing but he said,no one else did. I doubt they will let him start with the Super-Cats again. That is one of the fastest boats I have ever had to look at when it was running away from me.

What engines is Pat Patel using in his 46 Skater? I heard Torque V-12s originally but changed to Sterlings?

Brand new Sterlings.....by the way vees don't "spank" cats. Vees with 4000 hp pull slowly away from cats with 1500 hp until the fuel load lightens. Funny thing , Mark Nemschoff's and Johnny Tomlinson's Super Cats pull away from the West Coast Super Cats at the start too. Maybe they're just slow.

A good 46 Skater with less than 2500 hp (170 mph) will run rings around any vee with twice the power. Keep your comparisons in context........

T2x

Since we're on the subject T2x, what do you think it's going to take to break 200 mph? We have been told that David Scott's 36 Skater had 2 x 1500 HP when he did 190 mph. As far as spanking goes, isn't the V-hull record about 140 mph?

Nice to hear from you, Too Old. As my old buddy, Mark Hartman used to say, "Horsepower is better than sex!" at least in this context.

First I thought this thread was asking for advice on which v-bottom boat to buy if someone wants to run around 140mph. The comparisons between cats and vees really doesn't make sense. Rock-It has twin 1200hp Eickert motors and runs just near 140mph. The Supercats have twin 800hp motors and run nearly the same speed. Now, a 40 Skater with twin 1200hp Eickerts is going to run much faster than the 42 Outerlimits with the same power. Also, a 46 Skater with twin 1200hp motors will outrun the 42 Outerlimits by a considerable margin.

Both companies makes terrific products. I'm happy to just get rides on either machine so I'm not going to get into the debate of which is better or any of that. But, I stand by my earlier comments that if, as the thread began, someone wants to run in the 140mph range in a v-bottom, than the 42 Outerlimits should be considered in addition to the boats that had previously been mentioned.

I'm going back to lurking on this thread and just drooling all over my keyboard thinking about these great machines... :D

It may take more testosterone than brains to break 200 mph. However I'd rather be in a canopied cat at 200 than an open cockpit vee at 125...let alone 140! It's all about physics again folks. Two hulls separated by a wing riding on a cushion of air is much more stable (and efficient) than a mono hull balancing on a single point of contact that decreases in size with speed.....common sense. Granted more horsepower will allow you to "power down" your contraption, but the gross waste of horsepower to accomplish this is ludicrous, wasteful and ultimately unsafe.

I watched some tape of a guy trying to break some fictitious vee record on the Hudson river a few years ago. He spent a fortune on mega mammoth super charged engines in his "Outer Hustler" or whatever the latest name of the newly stepped old Signature hulls is today. The "attempt" involved spooling his misbegotten ego trip up to full throttle, losing control, collecting the hull, spooling up again, losing control, etc, etc, ..... you get the picture.

I often wonder what the appeal is for you ultimate vee guys. I understand the head room issue and that makes sense until you want to go over 110 mph.... I'll even give you some sympathy for falling for an old "carny barker" like Reggie....who, while selling you vee bottoms, made his name racing TUNNEL HULLS for chrissakes!!!!!!.... Maybe it's the "Don Aronow rugged man of the sea standing there in his shirtsleeves laughing at Mother Nature" B.S. that Crouse has handed you over the years. Perhaps it is the State-of-the-art stepped bottom fantasy you are all too eager to swallow. ........... But, for cryin out loud....... None of that crap makes these boats stable at speed or faster than cats. Alas, the only thing that seems to make any kind of sense is the macho symbolism thing. You know the "Look at me I've got 35 feet of powerful, pointy bow sticking out in front of my pants." syndrome.
Sadly, the girls aren't all over you because of your bow length.... Nope, It's the wallet that bought the damn thing that turns them on!

Whatever, now you understand why I don't take Factory 2 very seriously................

Me? I'll take my measly 600 horsepower, naturally aspirated 120 mph outboard cat any day, thank you.

T2x (in rare form today)

Rich, stop holding back. Tell us what you really think... :D! I love reading Rich's posts when he's feeling awful truthful!

Gotta say, different strokes for different folks. Some people want the cabin space a V-hull offers while others want the out-and-out speed potential that the cats offer. I'll happily drive what I got and take rides from whomever offers regardless of the hull type and the top speed. I'm just happy to be out on the water moving faster than I can on a highway.

SCHEEEZCH ! Man relax, I agree with Fred and Miller. The reason I own a blown fast V-bottom is because, I can.:cool: Jeff

When I was compairing ..... never mind.
When I picture what you can trailer, launch, dock, wash, maintain, by yourself its not a 46. 40 maybe. vee better.
As far as the ultimate boat, I think it is time for another thread.
the info on alu vs plastic has been great.
Thank you ,
pat W:)