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HabanaJoe 05-17-2008 01:56 PM

Guys, we're not on the same page at all here, you all want to talk about Biodiesel for your own use and save a couple bucks which in the scope of the US or the world amounts to nothing and I say that with no insult intended at all. References to truckloads of used cooking oil are such a drop in the bucket that they make no real difference hence the widespread commerical applications are so limited for that kind of oil.

What I'm talking about is Biodiesel on a commerical scale and I'll give you real numbers. Tri-State Biodiesel based in NYC is building a new Biodiesel plant in Brooklyn that will be online in 2009. That plant will be able to produce 3 million gallons of 100% Biodiesel a year from NYC used cooking oil. The State of NY is helping them along with other Government Agencies, this is real and is being built today.

I have right know 2 - 1000 kw generators sets running 1 project and that project will last 1 year. Those 2 generators burn 120 gallons per hour combined. There is 8736 hours in 1 year, just that one job will consume 1,048,320 gals in 1 year or 1/3 of the entire production of their waste oil Biodiesel plant for just 1 job in NYC!!!!!

Or look at it as 1 - 7,600 gal tractor trailer of diesel every 63 hours - simply not enough used cooking oil in NYC to support my one job. Think about how many of those go on everyday plus the number of boats, trucks, trains, buses, power generating stations and cars that use diesel everyday.

That is why I say "there is not enough used cooking oil to make a difference" - all the McDonalds and all the KFC's added together for 1 year can't power the US for 1 day on Biodiesel fuel.

Used cooking oil is a "feel good" measure and makes great U-tube videos but doesn't hold the answer to America's growing diesel demands or solving how we stop buying so much oil from overseas.

I don't want to sound like you saving a few dollars isn't good, but as soon as more people start grabbing up used cooking oil, what will happen? You will have to start paying for the used oil and your whole argument on price and saving money goes out the window!!!

I don't know the answers but if I did I could run for office get elected and start taking so much kick-back money from the oil companies that I just wouldn't care anymore what the answer was!!!!

29Firefox 05-17-2008 10:06 PM

0.1%
 
Don't forget you have to add a minimum of 0.1% of regular diesel oil to your bio mix or else the IRS will be getting knee deep in you. :p

29Firefox 05-18-2008 12:16 AM

Big Brother
 
Road Taxes are administered by the Various States and on the Federal level by IFTA. Making fuel is monitored by the IRS and is taxable under Sec 4081 of the Internal Revenue Code. Road or no road Uncle Sam wants his cut.:p

29Firefox 05-18-2008 11:42 AM

The tax man cometh
 

Originally Posted by db71 (Post 2561383)
All I can tell is that sec. 4081 refers to dyed and undyed fuel I only pulled up acouple documents so if you have something specific please let me know.

A friend of a friend ended up neck deep with the IRS over biodiesel. He was using some home brew biodiesel in his commercial fishing boat.He got a lawyer and got it worked out. However, off farm casual production of biodiesel is taxable and not entitled to tax credits. Sec 4086 is the nuts and bolts regulations on the administration of the taxing of fuels. Its more than just the dyeing of fuel. It's all the filing 637 filings and other trash. The actual taxing and tax crediting comes under US Code Title 26.

§ 40A. Biodiesel and renewable diesel used as fuel
(a) General rule
For purposes of section 38, the biodiesel fuels credit determined under this section for the taxable year is an amount equal to the sum of—
(1) the biodiesel mixture credit, plus
(2) the biodiesel credit, plus
(3) in the case of an eligible small agri-biodiesel producer, the small agri-biodiesel producer credit.
(b) Definition of biodiesel mixture credit, biodiesel credit, and small agri-biodiesel producer credit
For purposes of this section—
(1) Biodiesel mixture credit
(A) In general
The biodiesel mixture credit of any taxpayer for any taxable year is 50 cents for each gallon of biodiesel used by the taxpayer in the production of a qualified biodiesel mixture.
(B) Qualified biodiesel mixture
The term “qualified biodiesel mixture” means a mixture of biodiesel and diesel fuel (as defined in section 4083 (a)(3)), determined without regard to any use of kerosene, which—
(i) is sold by the taxpayer producing such mixture to any person for use as a fuel, or
(ii) is used as a fuel by the taxpayer producing such mixture.
(C) Sale or use must be in trade or business, etc.
Biodiesel used in the production of a qualified biodiesel mixture shall be taken into account—
(i) only if the sale or use described in subparagraph (B) is in a trade or business of the taxpayer, and
(ii) for the taxable year in which such sale or use occurs.
(D) Casual off-farm production not eligible
No credit shall be allowed under this section with respect to any casual off-farm production of a qualified biodiesel mixture.

(2) Biodiesel credit
(A) In general
The biodiesel credit of any taxpayer for any taxable year is 50 cents for each gallon of biodiesel which is not in a mixture with diesel fuel and which during the taxable year—
(i) is used by the taxpayer as a fuel in a trade or business, or
(ii) is sold by the taxpayer at retail to a person and placed in the fuel tank of such person’s vehicle.
(B) User credit not to apply to biodiesel sold at retail
No credit shall be allowed under subparagraph (A)(i) with respect to any biodiesel which was sold in a retail sale described in subparagraph (A)(ii).
(3) Credit for agri-biodiesel
In the case of any biodiesel which is agri-biodiesel, paragraphs (1)(A) and (2)(A) shall be applied by substituting “$1.00” for “50 cents”.
(4) Certification for biodiesel
No credit shall be allowed under paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (a) unless the taxpayer obtains a certification (in such form and manner as prescribed by the Secretary) from the producer or importer of the biodiesel which identifies the product produced and the percentage of biodiesel and agri-biodiesel in the product.
(5) Small agri-biodiesel producer credit
(A) In general
The small agri-biodiesel producer credit of any eligible small agri-biodiesel producer for any taxable year is 10 cents for each gallon of qualified agri-biodiesel production of such producer.
(B) Qualified agri-biodiesel production
For purposes of this paragraph, the term “qualified agri-biodiesel production” means any agri-biodiesel which is produced by an eligible small agri-biodiesel producer, and which during the taxable year—
(i) is sold by such producer to another person—
(I) for use by such other person in the production of a qualified biodiesel mixture in such other person’s trade or business (other than casual off-farm production),
(II) for use by such other person as a fuel in a trade or business, or
(III) who sells such agri-biodiesel at retail to another person and places such agri-biodiesel in the fuel tank of such other person, or
(ii) is used or sold by such producer for any purpose described in clause (i).
(C) Limitation
The qualified agri-biodiesel production of any producer for any taxable year shall not exceed 15,000,000 gallons.
(c) Coordination with credit against excise tax
The amount of the credit determined under this section with respect to any biodiesel shall be properly reduced to take into account any benefit provided with respect to such biodiesel solely by reason of the application of section 6426 or 6427 (e).
(d) Definitions and special rules
For purposes of this section—
(1) Biodiesel
The term “biodiesel” means the monoalkyl esters of long chain fatty acids derived from plant or animal matter which meet—
(A) the registration requirements for fuels and fuel additives established by the Environmental Protection Agency under section 211 of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7545), and
(B) the requirements of the American Society of Testing and Materials D6751.
(2) Agri-biodiesel
The term “agri-biodiesel” means biodiesel derived solely from virgin oils, including esters derived from virgin vegetable oils from corn, soybeans, sunflower seeds, cottonseeds, canola, crambe, rapeseeds, safflowers, flaxseeds, rice bran, and mustard seeds, and from animal fats.
(3) Mixture or biodiesel not used as a fuel, etc.
(A) Mixtures
If—
(i) any credit was determined under this section with respect to biodiesel used in the production of any qualified biodiesel mixture, and
(ii) any person—
(I) separates the biodiesel from the mixture, or
(II) without separation, uses the mixture other than as a fuel,
then there is hereby imposed on such person a tax equal to the product of the rate applicable under subsection (b)(1)(A) and the number of gallons of such biodiesel in such mixture.
(B) Biodiesel
If—
(i) any credit was determined under this section with respect to the retail sale of any biodiesel, and
(ii) any person mixes such biodiesel or uses such biodiesel other than as a fuel,
then there is hereby imposed on such person a tax equal to the product of the rate applicable under subsection (b)(2)(A) and the number of gallons of such biodiesel.
(C) Producer credit
If—
(i) any credit was determined under subsection (a)(3), and
(ii) any person does not use such fuel for a purpose described in subsection (b)(5)(B), then there is hereby imposed on such person a tax equal to 10 cents a gallon for each gallon of such agri-biodiesel.
(D) Applicable laws
All provisions of law, including penalties, shall, insofar as applicable and not inconsistent with this section, apply in respect of any tax imposed under subparagraph (A) or (B) as if such tax were imposed by section 4081 and not by this chapter.
(4) Pass-thru in the case of estates and trusts
Under regulations prescribed by the Secretary, rules similar to the rules of subsection (d) of section 52 shall apply.
(e) Definitions and special rules for small agri-biodiesel producer credit
For purposes of this section—
(1) Eligible small agri-biodiesel producer
The term “eligible small agri-biodiesel producer” means a person who, at all times during the taxable year, has a productive capacity for agri-biodiesel not in excess of 60,000,000 gallons.
(2) Aggregation rule
For purposes of the 15,000,000 gallon limitation under subsection (b)(5)(C) and the 60,000,000 gallon limitation under paragraph (1), all members of the same controlled group of corporations (within the meaning of section 267 (f)) and all persons under common control (within the meaning of section 52 (b) but determined by treating an interest of more than 50 percent as a controlling interest) shall be treated as 1 person.
(3) Partnership, S corporation, and other pass-thru entities
In the case of a partnership, trust, S corporation, or other pass-thru entity, the limitations contained in subsection (b)(5)(C) and paragraph (1) shall be applied at the entity level and at the partner or similar level.
(4) Allocation
For purposes of this subsection, in the case of a facility in which more than 1 person has an interest, productive capacity shall be allocated among such persons in such manner as the Secretary may prescribe.
(5) Regulations
The Secretary may prescribe such regulations as may be necessary—
(A) to prevent the credit provided for in subsection (a)(3) from directly or indirectly benefiting any person with a direct or indirect productive capacity of more than 60,000,000 gallons of agri-biodiesel during the taxable year, or
(B) to prevent any person from directly or indirectly benefiting with respect to more than 15,000,000 gallons during the taxable year.
(6) Allocation of small agri-biodiesel credit to patrons of cooperative
(A) Election to allocate
(i) In general In the case of a cooperative organization described in section 1381 (a), any portion of the credit determined under subsection (a)(3) for the taxable year may, at the election of the organization, be apportioned pro rata among patrons of the organization on the basis of the quantity or value of business done with or for such patrons for the taxable year.
(ii) Form and effect of election An election under clause (i) for any taxable year shall be made on a timely filed return for such year. Such election, once made, shall be irrevocable for such taxable year. Such election shall not take effect unless the organization designates the apportionment as such in a written notice mailed to its patrons during the payment period described in section 1382 (d).
(B) Treatment of organizations and patrons
(i) Organizations The amount of the credit not apportioned to patrons pursuant to subparagraph (A) shall be included in the amount determined under subsection (a)(3) for the taxable year of the organization.
(ii) Patrons The amount of the credit apportioned to patrons pursuant to subparagraph (A) shall be included in the amount determined under such subsection for the first taxable year of each patron ending on or after the last day of the payment period (as defined in section 1382 (d)) for the taxable year of the organization or, if earlier, for the taxable year of each patron ending on or after the date on which the patron receives notice from the cooperative of the apportionment.
Too long see next post:p

29Firefox 05-18-2008 11:43 AM

The second half
 
The rest from above

(iii) Special rules for decrease in credits for taxable year If the amount of the credit of the organization determined under such subsection for a taxable year is less than the amount of such credit shown on the return of the organization for such year, an amount equal to the excess of—
(I) such reduction, over
(II) the amount not apportioned to such patrons under subparagraph (A) for the taxable year, shall be treated as an increase in tax imposed by this chapter on the organization. Such increase shall not be treated as tax imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining the amount of any credit under this chapter or for purposes of section 55.
(f) Renewable diesel
For purposes of this title—
(1) Treatment in the same manner as biodiesel
Except as provided in paragraph (2), renewable diesel shall be treated in the same manner as biodiesel.
(2) Exceptions
(A) Rate of credit
Subsections (b)(1)(A) and (b)(2)(A) shall be applied with respect to renewable diesel by substituting “$1.00” for “50 cents”.
(B) Nonapplication of certain credits
Subsections (b)(3) and (b)(5) shall not apply with respect to renewable diesel.
(3) Renewable diesel defined
The term “renewable diesel” means diesel fuel derived from biomass (as defined in section 45K (c)(3)) using a thermal depolymerization process which meets—
(A) the registration requirements for fuels and fuel additives established by the Environmental Protection Agency under section 211 of the Clean Air Act (42 U.S.C. 7545), and
(B) the requirements of the American Society of Testing and Materials D975 or D396.
(g) Termination
This section shall not apply to any sale or use after December 31, 2008.
Leave it to the government make anything difficult :p

29Firefox 05-19-2008 11:56 AM

No way around
 

Originally Posted by db71 (Post 2561815)
Ok so how does the .01% get around this. Thanks for the heads up. It sounds like I would be running a 75/25 mix anyway.

There is no way around paying the taxes. The reason for the 0.1% is to make what ever the witches brew is officially "fuel". Failure to do so could be construed as tax evasion. In various uses lot of people are messing around with home brew alternative fuels and the government is looking for it's cut of the action.


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