What are Blackhawk drives worth?
 

We are kicking the tires(so to speak)on a newer boat that is equipped with 502's and blackhawk drives. I am not interested in keeping the blackhawks, would I be better off having the owner(which is the factory)remove them and install bravo drives? If so what kind of dollar difference should I expect to see? Or should I buy the boat as is and sell the blackhawks and pick up a set of bravo's ? What's your thoughts??

Thanks
Chris

I've seen them run any where from 2k for a modified used drive on up to 7k for a brand new one. The number of hours on the drive is also a variable. Depending on where your price falls, I may be interested. But only in drive, not two.

Cord
I am actually unfamilar with not only the cost of blackhawk drives but also bravos. So I was thinking that if I have the factory replace them with bravos I could pick up a warranty and not have the headace of trying to sell them. So if you are saying between 2-7k maybe make and average price of 3500 then new bravos cost what, I seen Bruce had some depending on gear ratio around 5k? I looks as if I'd be buying a drive outright?

Or am I off in left field??

Chris

at the Miami show, Dollar offshore had a brand new Blackhawk drive for sale at $3500.

Kurt

I believe the BlackHawks are surface drives .... So, if you bolt on Bravos, you are going to change the X-dim ... then the boat may not perform like the original rigging was setup to.


True or not ??

Is this a new boat? If it is why would they even use blackhack drives.

Cigarette1-
That is true, and my understanding is that if I put on bravos that the x-dim would act more like short drives? Is this true or not?

KCHOTBOAT-
Check your private mail, and no it is not a new boat it is one they took in on trade for a new boat. It is a 96.

Thanks all for the info keep it coming..

Chris

Here are some of the pros and cons of the legendary Blackhawk drive. Pros are the boat that is in question will run approx 10 mph slower with stock Bravo outdrives. Also all of the parts internally are the same as Mercruisers Bravo III sterndrive which will be available for a long time. Here are the cons, the actual housing that all the parts fit in is no longer available from Mercruiser and also those fancy propellers that only fit on a Blackhawk. This should give you an education and make your decision on your purchase a little easier.:D

Goodfella-
What are the pros and cons of switching to the bravos besides the 10mph difference?

Some of my concerns with the blackhawks are 1)reliability and repair cost 2)use and handling my wife and I will both drive this boat.

283CHECK, I think it would be just the opposite, your props would be deeper in the water. That's why Goodfella says you would lose 10 mph.

Gary

Ah, the more questions I ask the more I think I might want to pass on this boat. Could be the reason they have been sitting on this boat for awhile??:confused:

Thanks for the input all

I would think that allot of it too would have to do with the hull design, correct me if I' m wrong. It's my understanding that for example the Donzi Blackhawk is much faster with them than when people switch them to Bravos. One drawback is that with the speed comes some Flightiness. Kind of a trade-off. I would find out what the manufacturer recommends as they know what the hull is best suited for.

The President of the manufacturer said that he would have bravos put on if I did not want the blackhawks but it would slow the boat down. But then again this was the president and not the engineer!

Sounds like a bunch of Crap .... find another boat

I recall seeing a previous post on the black hawk drives that indicated speed at idle (ie. docking) was 3-4 mph higher than with the bravo drives. This may be a consideration with the wife or other drivers. But the down fall is the reduce top end speed by switching to bravo's.

FYI- Back in June or July 2001, Powerboat had a reader that wrote in a similiar question regarding this topic for the 1996 limited edition Scarab P29 - - - As I recall, Powerboat stated that very few manufactures (with the P29 as an exception) rigged the boats appropriately with the blackhawks.

I also believe that swithing from the blackhawk drives to the bravos is relatively simple, since it involves no modification to the transom.

I also believe that the Black Hawk drive was only available in 1996.

And that happens to be the year of this boat:D It is a 96 Challenger anyone have any good/bad besides the blackhawks on a 33' Challenger?

I don't know if it's a bunch of crap. I think the mfr is right in that the boat will slow down-for sure 8 mph. The trade off will be a cheaper drive to repair and prop. The boat proably won't be as stable on the top end, because it will have fewer blades in the water. But the skeg will be deeper and that may compensate enough. The gain is that it may be slightly easier to handle around the docks. Those big props really get the boat moving quickly. But the extra blades may make it more directionally controllable-not sure on that one though. You said that it had 502's so I'm assuming that the boat is a older model that came with the drives originally. This means that the mfr proably designed the hull for that drive. I say take the boat out and drive it. See how it handles and docks. I think alot of people are scared of the blackhawk because it's an unknown. Some people also say that you can't get parts for them. Well, merc hasn't made parts for the TRS for ages, and yet they are readilly available. Personally, I wouldn't let the drive scare me away from the boat.

283 CHECK..........I had a 1994 - 22' daytona which is the first year the blackhawk come out. It was a 502 efi 415 hp and it did well with the stock power. However, after I come up with 540 efi 640 hp or so, it created problems. At idle speed it would run 7 to 8 mph and with the extra hp, it would die on you when you put it in gear.

To answer 283check's question the boat will loose speed with the Bravo's becaues the X dimension for the Blackhawk is much higher. The propshaft of the Blackhawk is much higher than the Bravo I propshaft. The driveabiltiy of the boat will be the same and will be better with the blackhawk at high speeds becaues of the two prop design. Sterndrive reliability will be fine as long as stock Mercruiser horsepower is being used in front of it 502 MPI maximum.:)

Blackhawk/Bravo 1
 

Goodfella is almost right on.
First, physically switching the Blackhawk to the Bravo 1 is pretty easy. In fact, the boat I did the switch on was a Challenger.
Next, props for the Blackhawk are not cheap, and you now have 4 custom stainless props to worry about. If you dink one, I don't think Midwest propeller is gonna be of much help. After all, it didn't come off a bass boat.
The X dimension, being the centerline height of the drive input shaft at the transom, should be slightly higher on thie Blackhawk boat than the same boat with a Bravo 1, (per Mercury).
As Goodfella stated, the Blackhawk lower case is also shorter, which in turn raises the propshaft height up even more and brings it to a "surface peircing" level.
Still with me?
Ok. So, if you have two identical boats that were each rigged to Mercury specs and recomended heights for their respective drives. Boat "A" with Bravo-1's, Boat "B" has Blackhawks. Then exchange the Blackhawk drives for Bravo-1's on boat "B". Boat "B" should end up with a prop shaft height of about 2 inches higher than boat "A".
Piece of cake, right?
As for handling, the Blackhawk doesn't really seem to get very efficient till about 45mph or so, (on the Challengers anyway). Below that speed the boat felt kinda sloppy, but get around 50mph and they really start to shine. They are a very "loose" feel at speed, but that "loose" feel is also what gains you that extra speed. Remember, you have twice the props, but only about half of each prop is in the water. I would expect to loose anywhere between 5 and 8 mph by switching from Blackhawk to B-1's.
If I remember right, Nigel Hook &/or Craig Archer ran a 26 Scarab with a Blackhawk and got some impressive speeds with it. I've heard it was a really wild ride though. I also heard they went thru a lot of drives. If either of you guys are reading this, please help us out here.
Bottom line is, I think the Blackhawk was discontinued due to a somewhat high failure rate.
Well, that's what I heard anyway. :rolleyes:

Based on the version that I heard about Archer's Scarab, I'd have to say that they are lucky to be walking!

I think you guys have it a little wrong. The blackhawk drive has a very short vertical distance between the input and the prop shaft. It also is a surface drive that is designed to run with the bullet only slightly submerged when on plane. The transom cutout for the blackhawk drive is LOWER than the bravo cutout.
Also the blackhawk drive creates tremendous transom lift and almost no bow lift so the boat has to be built with a lot of natural bow lift and a rocker in the bottom. If you remove the blackhawk drives I feel you will not be happy with not only the performance but the handling. The bravo drives will be so low in the water that triming the drives may not help much.

Tinkerboater,
I agree, and disagree.
True, the Blackhawk does have a shorter lower case so it does have a shorter distance between the input shaft and the prop shaft.
True, it is a surface drive with twin props, and as such does provide a buttload of stern lift and minimal bow lift.

I disagree on the Mercury spec X dimension. I may be wrong, but I was pretty sure that the specs were that the Blackhawk was mounted higher than the Bravo 1 &/or the Bravo 3's. Indeed, the Challengers I played with that had Blackhawks, did in fact have a higher X than the Bravo 1 & 3 boats. I used to have the Mercury bulliten on this. I'll look for it, but I've moved since then.
The hull design we are discussing here is a step bottom, which normally runs pretty flat anyway. The Challengers I played with, (swapped Blackhawk for B-1), seemed to like the extra bow lift.
As Mr. Offshore noted, having surface drives means less prop/drive in the water which means handling may suffer. I think it's a given that this boat will loose speed, but since Chris's CFO, (Mrs.283checkmate/ Cyndi), will be driving this boat, I'm thinking they won't mind giving up a few mph for a more stable better handling boat.

I have a electronic copy of that document that you are refering to Gordo. Unfortinatly, it's .pdf so I don't know how to post it. I does list the x-dim being "2-1/2 inches higher than the standard dimension".

Hey guys, thanks for all the input. Unless Challenger comes down on their price tag they'll be keeping this boat. But the information will come in handy and I have learned quite a bit.

Again Thank You!

chris