Old Shadow Hull
 

Well rich I'll be polite on this one , but the jack clark\thriller 35' cat was never a copy of Any of yours nor Georges' associated boats. Came off of a fresh piece of paper on the drawing board. (oh have original of that too if you'd like a look see) (SORRY NO ROYALTIES OWED) And was built fresh off of the jig frames up All in wood my friend. (have pics to prove it if youd like to see.) I might think you were just a itsy bit upset it was done w\o your (wonderous knowledge and wisdom Hence best explained off by You as a COPY (NOT)
And no T2X fans this isn't a chip on my shoulder (well only a little one) But I'm not a huge fan of Mr. personality here. Who considers my father as no more than a SHIPWRIGHT Heheh. The very shipwright who hand built all of Mr. master boat builders conquest boats at our facility in South Carolina. Who already Earned a good name doing other Opc race boats & such in New Jersey. And please don't take this as an insult to Mr. T2X Who I Do believe to be a very Knowledgeable, and have much respect for. I just feel impelled to uphold my Dad's name in this instance as any son would. Also in being fair would like to add that rich was very much more involved in the tech aspect of these boats, where as we were more involved in the Building & design aspect.
Anyhow I suppose thats all in the past but just wanted to post a few pics I have of several of the boats mentioned here I have a few of the old chris-cats and shadows but not many. I have a ton more where these came from & will eventually post alot more Please enjoy.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/qst_4_it/...c=ph%26.view=t

Ken Adams Jr.
Quest Marine Inc.

Just wanted to add to this very interesting tread.......George Linder also designed a 25 foot cat for Checkmate that not to many people know about..i don't think anyway....It was a wood plug that Checkmate had to finish..but a Linder design....Only 6 or 7 were ever built! From what i recall it was also a very good ruff water cat, but not as fast as the 24 Skater...A couple of them were sold by Marty O'Neil on Long Island. Anybody ever seen one?

convincor,
If you notice in some of those pics I've posted there is a picture of that plug that we built & george designed. Thats A great pic of that boat too. I think we have the same pic somewhere. Thanks for posting it.

Ken

Those are some great pic`s of history of this sport.:)

Thank you for showing them

Mike

THE PLOT THICKENS


Verrrry interrresting;)

Hi Ken:

I learned the name "shipwright" from your dad who told me he was trained as one as a kid..... I thought it was a compliment. I also called him a "craftsman".... I still think that's a compliment, and he is the last of a vanishing breed.

The 35 Jaguar was, in fact, made from a running wooden plug...no argument and , as such, had to be made from a clean sheet of paper. Your Dad can draw blueprints with the best of them. I clearly remember that plug sinking in its first and only race, after which a mold was made. A cursory glance will also tell you that it has lines which closely resemble what a Chris Cat would look like if you scaled it up to 35 feet (It was built for a guy who previously owned and raced....a Chris Cat). It sure isn't a scaled up Quest tunnel boat...nor is it a variation of the boats your dad built for
Jim Caldwell (later Fountain plant manager). Certainly it has different lines and sponsons than a Conquest. I'm sure you will agree that it didn't work when stretched to 40 and 45 feet.

The facts about that boat are as follows: Ken Sr. signed a contract to build boats for Conquest Marine (my company) and did so in shops in Monck's Corner, and later St Stephens, South Carolina. While building the early boats he contracted on the side with Jack Clark, to build another boat in another shop in South Carolina. Ken also built and repaired his Quest Tunnels simultaneously.

Conquest sprang from an idea I had as an alternative to the fibreglass boats we built at Shadow. Ken had no involvement during the Shadow/Chris era. I preferred the flexibility that wood offered in allowing changes and improvements, based on experiences from my tunnel boat days. I also didn't want to "marry" another set of molds. I was impressed with the way that Steve Stepp's wooden 38' Velocity open boat was constructed (wood/fibreglass composite) and I thought we could improve upon it. We found Kenny Sr. who had moved from New Jersey to S.C. shortly before( As I recall he had been badly screwed by a customer on a Cat project with Jimmy Caldwell, who I raced against for years and know quite well. That Cat featured a tunnel a grown man could stand up under and looked like a cathedral ). Ken had a good reputation as a wood craftsman (Wood "God" if you prefer), we also spoke to some inboard hydro builders, and Rick Adamscyk of RAM tunnel fame. After this process, Ken sr. was chosen as the guy and we (I) capitalized a shop, materials, etc. Kenny's first task was to make some sample composites. which I still have. He laminated Carbon fiber and wood, Carbon fiber, aluminum and wood, tri ax and wood etc, until we settled (together) on the final specs. This was a free flowing process including George Linder, Ken Sr. and myself. The boat I (Me, myself, alone) most wanted to build using this process was "Rolling Thunder" a 32 cat, which featured four Formula 1 (Then IOGP) 2 liter mercs, and my relationship with Merc made this happen. I conceived that project from the ground up, before I met Ken. I also mandated the single step sponsons and participated, in detail, with George designing pad widths, dyhedral and styling. Ken communicated with George on a daily basis on design items and spoke to me primarily on financial issues. I made monthly trips to South Carolina to review progress.

Apparently Ken feels that he didn't get enough credit for those boats... and that's a shame...because he did an outstanding job. He and his sons, in fact, built every Conquest, including the Checkmate plug pictured. Ken was involved primarily in structural, but frequently in design meetings. There were plenty of things in those designs Ken disagreed with ...but built anyway. The boats were certainly the result of collaboration, but not necessarily a democracy....... that's business......... and life I guess.

I sold every one of those boats in advance which meant that I sat down with racers...one from France who was impossible to understand..and "brainstormed" (clean sheet of paper... length, width, engines, drives, etc) each hull from the ground up. (I performed this same function with the Shadows as well) These specs were then turned into blue prints by George, lofted by Ken, and built at Ken's shop. George sold the 37' Chris Craft plug and the Checkmate plug (which none of us liked as I recall)

One final thing..There was a 13' "Conquest Kitten" sport boat plug made, which I decided was too dangerous to make a mold from based on the Cougar Cub lawsuits that were floating around.

Conquests were built from 1984-1988. The Names Conquest Marine and Quest Racing were coincidental.

I hope this clears up that chapter.

T2x

Ps Ken Jr. Give my best to your Dad. He is a huge talent and we couldn't have done it without him....nuff said?

OSO.............What happened to the rest of this thread??????????

Rich,

This is a seperate thread...the other Shadow thread is still there...on page 2 I think. Ken Jr. started this one.

UPDATE...There was another thread which I replied to but is now gone...I wonder what happened to it????

Sean

T2X RE:Chris Cat 37' plug
 

T2X-
You said "George sold the 37' Chris Craft plug". This was a running plug? How did it perform? Or is the result obvious since they never made any more.:confused:

Actually the plug ran pretty well...If a bit bow high. Tim Ciasulli and Harry Wellman ran it in one or two races. It was never meant to race, but rather to have a few test runs and then go into the mold shop....therefore it was quite lightly constructed. In spite of that it led the first race it entered.... At that time Chris Craft was having second thoughts about the whole racing thing...and had some financial issues as well...so the project was abandoned. I believe Tim still owns the boat and converted it for pleasure use.

Interesting side light..... After it's "racing" career, the boat was returned for some modifications....... Ken Adams was doing some work on it and opened up the bow..... He found that Harry Wellman had foamed in old cylinder heads and other steel objects.....as ballast. Somehow this hardware didn't blast through the deck or bottom.... That is probably a better tribute to Ken's work than anything I could write.

Chris Craft later attempted to stay at the top level of racing by "sponsoring" the Jesse James 35 foot Conquest......This resulted in the confusing signage on the boat "Chris Craft by Conquest".

off topic

Bravo Mr. T2X
 

I thank you very kindly for addressing that so well. I hope you do not think badly of what I said . Maybe that Was some of the hot blooded brittish in me. However I tried quite hard to be somewhat diplomatic with my statments., but the comments on the 35' seemed a little Harsh when I read them in the earlier thread .Mostly b\c I've heard so many times my old man say just how difficult it was to design a boat in that era that did have different design specifications than other boats of the time. And yes the larger versions were attrocious(different sizes require different design parameters) And just for Clarification The reason that boat sank was b\c of wedges having been driven between the laminations on the tunneltop during rigging leaving a great gaping hole after she was under way.. (heck Bill Seebolds first offshore boat sank at the dock & he is One of the greatest OPC\formula one builders of alltime) Go figure ehh..
I am truely agree with your statements of the collabrative efforts of all of these boats, and the tremendous talents of all of the parties involved. And most Especially the teams involved with each one. It just saddens me sometimes to see one of those tallents often deleted\forgotten during topic discussion. Anyhow I do to this day believe that this trio of , Linder, Adams , and Luhrs could put out a cat that could run the #s off of the best there is today given the opportunity (composite or Wood\composite.)

Ken Adams jr.;)

Steve/Ken Jr.:

I concur with both of your posts..and mentioned previously that Jaguars were built with first class materials and workmanship.

As far as making a Cat today....yeah, we could certainly compete and raise a little Hell...BUT.... Peter Hledin (Skater)is VERY, VERY good.........and would be a tough competitor. His new 30 footer is shaping up to be a masterpiece.

T2x

? 30' Skater? Tell us more about this boat. What engines? Why is he building it? Single or twin I/O? More info.

A 30'??..that could be cool!! :cool:

The BodyGuard race boat was a one off 30' Skater, I saw it race in New York in 1999. Is this the new 30 or is it a different design, it had twin outboards, and raced in P class.

Kirk

37 Chris Cat
 

I found the 37 Chris Cat "running plug". It's sitting in the back yard of the American Offshore factory. Through no fault of the current AO owner, the 37 is in sorry shape. The wood bottom is delaminating everywhere. Too bad: it's real piece of history.

The Body Guard race boat was a one off and has nothing to do with the new plug. The new 30, as I understand it, is primarily an outboard hull with more freeboard and a deeper tunnel than the 28. What's most intriguing about this, Peter is personally doing the plug himself and encorporating all of his new "tricks" in terms of tunnel width, steps, and handling. It sounds like a smaller version of his new 32 and is specifically designed for the 3.0 liter 300 pro max's and X's. Sort of a Shadow Cat for the 21st century...... I'll be waiting for the boat tests.

By the way.....if you get a chance look at Linder's post on the "We lost a thread"....thread. Damn it's good to see the old coot can still type....even if he does drool on the keys........

;)

T2x

http://www.darrensoffshorephotos.hom...aterfest3.html The old coot himself. Notice the drool bucket attached to his lower lip.

T2x,

Something to think about, What is the most efficient hull you have heard of.

My old 36 skater would go 118 on GPS and verified with a radar gun during a kilo run in NC. It had bravo drives and HP500 power. It weighed 7200 lbs. We were running a outboard prop, I think a 34 pitch. We were on the rev limiter 5250.

If you do the slip calculations its impressive.

I believe the 36 is the best boat peter builds/fastest.

THANKS!
 

Gentlemen,

And I use that term loosely! It has been great to read about the history of these legendary craft. You mention names that bring back memeories of days hangin in the shop of Dick O'Dea with my
father. He and Dick grew up togeher and raced hydro's together. I grew up with and am still good friends with Dick's daughter. You guys are really neat and I have immensely enjoyed both of these
threads. I didn't know when I was racing the Pennzoil boat in 1996 it had such a rich history prior to Nicky Cutro owning it.

Thanks again guys!

Shane:cool:

Im ready for it who else is game!!
 

Hey T2X I can think a couple phrases to compliment your reply concerning Peter.

(A) Competition makes the race world go round

(B) If Its anything worth doing it's worth working hard to make it happen.

Top Of the morning to ya Gentleman.
Ken Jr.;)

Right back at ya!

Most efficient hull I ever heard of...easy question.......... a Switzer "wing". 19 feet long 8 feet wide twin 125 BP "stacker" outboards (270 total horsepower) ....... Stone age props (circa 1967).............. 115 mph.

Nothing else even comes close

TX2 - BIG QUESTION - the shadow and chris cat ran very successfully and of course, the Skater is the most dominating hull to date, BUT, without saying that there are more Skaters than the Shadow/ChrisCats, haven't the Skater KILLED a lot of people? It seems to me the Shadow/Chris design is MUCH, MUCH safer, and the speeds back then were fast (El Boss, King Sting, and so on)...just VERY curious as to you take on this. So?

My two cents (for what its worth):

Having been racing on and off for fifteen or so years, it is my observation that boats per se don't kill people, but boats run BEYOND the limits of the particular hull design and/or the skills of the riding crew CAN and HAVE killed people. The bottom line is that the wheel and throttles are in the hands of the crew, who are ultimately responsible for what happens. If you race safely, you have a much better chance of coming home safely. If you race out of control, your odds of coming home safely are greatly reduced. Its just common sense.

That having been said, it is my observation and experience that the Chris/Shadow design is EXTREMELY forgiving, whereas the Skater is not. I was formerly a Chris-Craft dealer and sold many of the Chris-Cats as pleasure and race boats, and campaigned a Chris-Cat pro-stock boat for many years. While not as fast in flat water as a 32' Skater, it was a PHENOMENAL rough water boat which tended to run "through" waves. With its large "impact" areas on the front of the sponsons and "spoon" in the tunnel, it was very forgiving if you made a mistake. The Skater 32' tended to be "flown" on top of the waves, and was therefore not as forgiving to crew error.

As I am new to these forums, I just am offering my opinions and observations, and not claiming to be any kind of "expert". I would be interested in other people's experiences with these two great designs.

Tom

The crew is operating the boat, but racing on water means you are dealing with 2 unstable conditions - water and wind. This does make the Skater a much more dangerous boat since it seems to be working more on aerodynamics where the shadow/chris designs worked more on hydrodynamics. The shadow/chris design allowed the boat to act simular to a vee design in rough water and still have the speed of a cat. I believe the Skaters are faster due to the advanced construction, both materials and technology. If there was a modern version of the shadow/chris built today, Skater couldn't touch it. Advanced, to me, would be better materials and slight changes to the bottom to compensate for a lighter boat. So, yes, the Skater is much more dangerous than the shadow/chris.

Edit

T2x, I have read some of your posts and enjoy the info. I would like to speak with you sometime offline about some additional info on tips on the cats

must be spiders in the cable modem or something. Anyhow just want to ask the board about the Awesome cats. I currently have one and am quite happy with it. It handles just as I remember the Chris Cat did when i raced.( Many moons ago) Some of you guys may remember the boat. Originally called Instigator, riged by kurts. Later ran as Wild Turkey. I have to agree that although maybe not as fast as the newer Skaters, back in its day it was still the boat to beat. Even speaking to previous ownersof similar boats Shadows etc. (jim d King Sting etc. ) Most have good things to say about design/handling of these era boats.

Straycat,

Would the old cat "Wild Turkey" be related to the old Cigarette Wild Turkey? If so was Bob Bocciano (Spelling?) still involved with it? My father was friends with him and just this weekend while at my parents home in NJ we were looking through old photos of me and there was one of me at the helm in Pt. Pleasant at the docks at the Lobster Shanty. Odly enough, many years later (1996) I was in the winners circle at the Shanty myself!

Shane:cool:

In no particular order.....................

Its Bocchino not Bocciano

Stray Cat: e-mail me whenever you like... There's a PM process here and I just cleared my mailbox.

The old 32' Skater (designed in 1986) featured a "fine" forward entry and did not have the recovery present in the 30' Shadow. We made the same mistake with a couple of the Conquests. The belief at the time was that a longer constant section might hurt top speed. Peter Hledin corrected this issue with his next design (the 40') and has made significant strides since then (IMO the new 32, is excellent in forward recovery design). To associate that boat with "carnage" is unfair and wrong , given its incredible race record, the absence of cockpit safety guidelines early in its career and, the fact that there were more of them than people qualified to drive them........ There's still a LOT of that around in boats of all types.

By the way most of the accidents involving the 32 were barrel rolls not stuffs......... Which to me are more indicative of driver error ( and backward prop rotation , of course). Finally, if the boat is/was so dangerous than all of the people who "popped" it are more than thieves since they had the benefit of seeing the accidents BEFORE copying the boat. I believe that Peter designed it in good faith believing that it was a valid design and a natural progression from his 24 footer.

I'll let someone else fill in which are the "popped" hulls.

T2x

Caveat Emptor................

T2x - Good info, are you saying that Peter increased the "constant" running surface to help it's recovery? And/or did he widen the forward strakes? Or what? Thanks.

Wild Turkey?

I found some old photos.

One More

Edit

Hey what was the chris cat "Ballistic" before Fusco owned it ? Was that the original name or not ? I was just with him today again and keep forgetting to ask him .:rolleyes:
Is the new owner on this board ? I think he said he sold it to a guy in VA.

Ps . You guys better better hold onto your hats ! He is workin hard on that big skater ! And he's got a big smile !:D

I believe "Ballistic" is here:

http://www.riveted.org/fra_boatsforsale.htm

Thanks Ted , that does say Ballistic ,but it's not the same one . The one I mean has 2 -750 EFI motors. Thanks though .:D