Don't almost all unlimiteds have fully articulating canard wings up front, and didn't some of the teams experiment with gyro control (similar to pitch on a chopper) instead of just driver control? I know it would only be good for straightaway blowovers, but that was the most dangerous in the unlim's I believe. That's why I thought Steve David may help and he is an offshore guy also.

I certainly agree with you, but how are you going to convince all these drunk people? With the pleasure boat accidents, it's the same thing over and over. The driver was drunk, they were out joyriding, and mowed down an innocent person or slammed into something immovable killing everyone on board. It's so repetitive, it's monotonous.

Michael

Running fast at night is stupid. Drinking and driving is stupid. Putting yourself in a position to hurt, or kill, an innocent bystander or fan is also stupid. However, I've raced cars, boats, motorcycles and flown in stunt planes and crop dusters. It's fun and a rush. I've crashed way too many times and still ran hard in a cast in desert races on bikes and done the same speed skiing (wrapped the cast in a couple garbage bags). My opinion: If that is my choice, and I absolutely do not put an innocent person in danger, my perogative. There is a huge difference between driving/riding fast and driving/riding stupid. I don't know what happened at Cumberland, but he seemed to be a fast, not stupid, lover of life with a need for speed. Everything we do to make the sport as safe as possible is good. It will never be completely safe. Common sense to me means stop the stupid, not the guys like we just lost in NY and Cumberland. Try to figure out what happened and make it safer. Again, just my opinion.

With all of our help. Report them or drive for them. No exceptions.

Rat...we need to have a barley pop sometime, I sawed a cast off my leg to do a desert race..and won :) and my post was singling out now particular accident, just a generalization

Many barrel rolls in cats come after suddenly unloading the tunnel of air and sticking a sponson. Anything that vents the tunnel seems to me like it would be much harder to predict and control than the hull is in the first place!

Don't bandage the elbow when the knee is the problem.

Ok I was not thinking venting the hull just a flap behind the flap it would still be enlosed it would be like 8"-12" tall and only open after the air would come in at a certain angle to push the flap open an example would be if I drilled 45 degree holes in a running position they would not suck in enough air to open the flaps but if the boat went up 10-15 degrees it would suck in enough air to open the flap now obviously this would need some type of wind tunnel testing to see exactly when the airflow would change etc. I do not know if it would work but it was just a thought. I was not thinking fancy gryo's or anything like that just using the air direction that would change when a boat got more air under it.

:ernaehrung004::ernaehrung004:

Once you've caught enough air to get the boat moving upward, you're probably done. Killing the lift is only a portion of it. You also have the momentum of the mass to consider, as well as the rising rate of aerodynamic drag- the increase in drag coefficient when the hull rotates upward in relation to its axis of travel. Basically, once you start it moving upward, it's going to take more than the removal of the original force to stop it. And you still have the issue of what happens if and when it does com slamming back down to the water.

There is a reason racers have gone to canopies, 5 point harnesses , onboard O2, etc. As long as folks continue to run these excessive speeds in open cockpit boats you are going to have the occasional tragedy. To expand upon Chris's point of the odds being much more in favor of the pros, I believe I read a quote from Teague once where he states, in his opinion, the number of people that are truly skilled enough to run speeds above 100 MPH is very, very small. Some of these boats are approaching NASCAR speeds on a surface which is unpredictible with no safety equipment to protect them in case of an accident. Continuing on the NASCAR theme, can you imagine a race today, even on a short track, where they ran convertibles with no roll bars, seat belts, helmets, etc. Seriously, how much of a difference is there in the event of a wreck?

Bingo...It's about the cockpit safety standards and not about the hull designs.

T2x

dont forget to add a few passengers in each convertible, and a cooler in some... and did I mention the occasional bikini clad blonde laying on the trunk lid soaking up the rays??

At 170 mph.:)

Michael

True, that's why every racer I've talked with has told me if the wife and I make a team, it must be a canopy boat.

Wasn't being personal, just that in the same circumstances as the Cumberland accident, he was doing something in my opinion he loved and not endangering to any innocents. Not much else I would have done differently. I hope we all learn something from that and the NJ incident. In NJ, why did the canopy fail?

NY not NJ ....not up to lavin saftey specs

I love you guys but I've had too much to drink to read this whole thread. If this has been suggested, please EXCUUUUUSE MEEEEEE!:drink:

Anyway, how about the old simpler is better thing... two drogue (sp? airplane guys help me out) chutes on the stern of either sponson of a cat mated to an accelerometer to guage roll to port and starboard. Roll too fast and the drogue chute on the low side deploys and spark to the motors is cut.:cool:

PM me and I'll tell you where to mail my royalty check. And NO, I do NOT volunteer to test the system.:drink:

Hi Guys,
Have enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. As has been stated, there are a number of issues with air entrapment hulls that make them singificantly different from a pure aerodynamic (plane) or hydrodynamic (water surface vessel) issue. My Buddy T2x (yes I admitted that publicly, it was part of my 12 step graduation...) has a ton of experience in designing, building and driving cats as well as filming and watching literally 1,000s of miles of racing (air entrapment and Vee). The best combination of minds on this subject come from the scientific/engineering world (Chris Sunkins comments for example) and the empirical racing world (T2x for example). I've been blessed to drive the hulls of some of the best in both worlds including Ron Jones Sr and Jr, Ed Karelsen, Norm Berg, Mike Hanson, Jon Staudacher, and the fellow who designed all of the recent Buds, and our teams newest Unlimited. I've subsequently crashed about everything they developed :) We've tried gyros, flaps, drone chutes, air brakes, transom "daggars", wheelie "bars", aft mounted tiplets or winglets and air slots in our decks. It isn't their failures of design that caused the crashes. It's nature at work. You can blow over a pencil with enough force. Once the enertia has begun, and the angle of incidence too great, nothing but God will bring it safely down. Thus the development of safety cells, canopies, air systems etc. When the reality was accepted that we can only reduce but not eliminate blowovers (and that's all I'm speaking to, not stuffing, barrel rolls, etc) then surviving the inevitable became the primary goal. Sadly we lost alot of really fine people in the development of todays safety systems, and we'll lose more as the learning continues. We have lost Blue Angel pilots during airshows, arguably the finest trained pilots in the world with safety budgets that dwarf the entire racing budgets of every boat racing team in America combined. Accidents happen. Boat racing involves a set of variables that no other race vehicle encounters (to the best of my knowledge) be it wind, water, waves from multiple directions, accel and deaccel, yaw, roll and pitch instability, propellers hooking up and breaking free, momentum and immediate removal of thrust, etc.
If you're desirous of going fast in a boat, use the best safety systems possible. Visit a race shop of a quality team and inspect their set ups. Although we're competitive, safety is one issue where the technology is freely shared. Our shop in Madison, Indiana is available to anyone to visit with an appointment and check out our safety systems.
Thank you again for your ideas. So many times it's what may look like a whacky idea that ends up becoming something that will save someones life.
Steve

Thanks for weighing in.

Sorry, I've read as much of the lavin info as I can find and the UIM guidelines/rules. Does the Lavin foundation, or someone in the states for UIM, review/inspect canopys for compliance?

There are individuals that are versed in the latest aspects of safety. Be wary and listen to the ones that aren't trying to sell you something. If you are interested in lerning more a good place to start is George Lindner or David Depatrillo.


That said..Haggin was making an attempt at one point to have a Safety Summit bringing in the top safety guys from Hydro,champ, Class 1 ,Drag and Euro and US offshore builders and Safety professionals to update the aging Lavin Specs. I will revisit with him today to see if I can get this back on track for a meeting in MIAMI before the show.

Unfortunately, a lot of the HARD lessons learned are not being implemented on current day race boats . Even simple retrofits are being sacrificed for weight savings , cost, speed, comfort or plain ignorance.

Miss GEICO Racing team has begun moving ahead with the help of like minded racers safety and builders in applying new and old technology/lessons to our program. If ANY team would like to have our safety playbook or tour our boats for ideas...just ask.



Quick overview:

Double streingth Canopy
Carbon Roll Cage
Extra wide window flanges w/bra and floating windows
5/8 to 1 inch window screens / min exposure
6 point 3 inch Formula 1 Racing belts, Cam Lock
La Joie Custom Nascar seats w/ head restraints
Han's Device
TRIPLE redundance air systems
TRIPLE pin Safety Hatch Systems
Fully Braced Engine hatch with extra pins
All Hatches Pinned and braced
Raised lips around escape hatches
Carbon racing helmets/air
Cockpit padding for legs
3 Halon Fire Systems auto/Manual
Emergency Cockpit lighting
In Hull Cockpit water diversion bulkheads
New Glow sticks , every test, every race. period
Open TEAM "what if" environment. (everyone's input ideas listened too)

I'm sure I missed something but you get the idea. We are fortunate Haggin is a maniac for safety. Not to mention the best safety crew (Angels) around and a fully loaded safety boat for all racers benefit.



Marc

Well said!:ernaehrung004:

Great info. A safety summit should be a high priority of the racing organizations every year in my opinion; seems like something that sponsors could get behind too and would benefit all. I am curious how the Miss Geico safety approach differs from what Victory 1 had on board during this horrible tragedy. Why aren't larger breakway pods being used in offshore cats? Does it come down to weight and putting speed over safety?