BIG Time motor problem ...any ideas ?????
08-03-2009, 06:30 PM
#241
Banned
Thread Starter
So you still dont have an explanation on the LARRYS ENGINE & MARINE timing phuch up that they were shipped/sent at 34 degrees timing in February and now after the June 20 th meltdown and Larrys call on June 22 the timing will have to be set at 27 degrees no higher then 28 degrees same motors/BIG CHIEF HEADS ...OOPS
You seem to know everything about Larrys shop whats with the DRASTIC TIMING REDUCTION now ??????
C'mon dont keep us waiting BIG Daddy
and Larry knows he had a deal made as a result of this meltdown and that he was eating the pistons ,rings, and gaskets ... which is a fraction of what the rebuilding/dynoing/head repairs was going to cost me ..Stephanie said i had to eat the 2 new sets of Casidium coated wrist pins since they got wayyyy too hot in the motor and J & E upon inspection said throw them away, so i called precision products and bought/paid for 2 new sets NO PROBLEM ... So RHR is such a badd customer and every other bldr stay away & run and hide but he liked me that much that he would order out 16 more custom pistons,and send all the gaskets & rings and not until he got a phone call that there were problems and compression was over 9-1 but now i have a bill ..it aint about the money BIG Daddy its all principal .. and who the phuch wants a blower moter over 9-1 compression ???
Larry must love me like a son to order 16 pistons and send all these parts , and give me 7 days of dyno and only charge me for 2 .... You guys get a lil too much sun on your BALD heads ?????
STILL WAITING ....... So BIG CHIEF HEAD motors run 34/32 degrees timing that leave LARRYS ENGINE & MARINE ?????? I want to see your answer and then i'll post ERIKS dyno sheets from Larrys with BIG CHIEFS and his timing is at ??? ON 100 OCTANE AIRPLANE FUEL ...
C'mon BIG DADDY u know LARRYS phuched up and Larry was gonna do the right thing and when STEPHANIE got wind of the parts Larry was sending the BILL went out .....This is the same STEPHANY who billed me for FED EX shipping on 16-71 blowers that were hand delivered to Larrys on a Sunday ...PHEW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Engine bldrs i know always require deposits for custom parts but Larry http://www.larrysengine.com/ ordered 16 pistons and had them coated and was all discussed on June 22 but on July 24 after Larry was notified that the compression with the pistons he ordered/sent was over 9-1 compression chit hit the fan .....
So how can LARRYS build the motor with 40/41 cc pistons and claim a 8.5-1 compression motor and after the long block/build motor is claimed to be 8.8 -1 and J & E claims the pistons needs 54 cc to be 8.5-1 mmmmmmmm Larrys design 40 cc / J & E 54 cc ... not a motor guy but 40 to 54 sounds like a big FUBAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh i know .... maybe i had to save the $$$2.00 a gallon from the methanol to be able to afford it ....
You seem to know everything about Larrys shop whats with the DRASTIC TIMING REDUCTION now ??????
C'mon dont keep us waiting BIG Daddy
and Larry knows he had a deal made as a result of this meltdown and that he was eating the pistons ,rings, and gaskets ... which is a fraction of what the rebuilding/dynoing/head repairs was going to cost me ..Stephanie said i had to eat the 2 new sets of Casidium coated wrist pins since they got wayyyy too hot in the motor and J & E upon inspection said throw them away, so i called precision products and bought/paid for 2 new sets NO PROBLEM ... So RHR is such a badd customer and every other bldr stay away & run and hide but he liked me that much that he would order out 16 more custom pistons,and send all the gaskets & rings and not until he got a phone call that there were problems and compression was over 9-1 but now i have a bill ..it aint about the money BIG Daddy its all principal .. and who the phuch wants a blower moter over 9-1 compression ???
Larry must love me like a son to order 16 pistons and send all these parts , and give me 7 days of dyno and only charge me for 2 .... You guys get a lil too much sun on your BALD heads ?????
STILL WAITING ....... So BIG CHIEF HEAD motors run 34/32 degrees timing that leave LARRYS ENGINE & MARINE ?????? I want to see your answer and then i'll post ERIKS dyno sheets from Larrys with BIG CHIEFS and his timing is at ??? ON 100 OCTANE AIRPLANE FUEL ...
C'mon BIG DADDY u know LARRYS phuched up and Larry was gonna do the right thing and when STEPHANIE got wind of the parts Larry was sending the BILL went out .....This is the same STEPHANY who billed me for FED EX shipping on 16-71 blowers that were hand delivered to Larrys on a Sunday ...PHEW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Engine bldrs i know always require deposits for custom parts but Larry http://www.larrysengine.com/ ordered 16 pistons and had them coated and was all discussed on June 22 but on July 24 after Larry was notified that the compression with the pistons he ordered/sent was over 9-1 compression chit hit the fan .....
So how can LARRYS build the motor with 40/41 cc pistons and claim a 8.5-1 compression motor and after the long block/build motor is claimed to be 8.8 -1 and J & E claims the pistons needs 54 cc to be 8.5-1 mmmmmmmm Larrys design 40 cc / J & E 54 cc ... not a motor guy but 40 to 54 sounds like a big FUBAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh i know .... maybe i had to save the $$$2.00 a gallon from the methanol to be able to afford it ....
Last edited by RunninHotRacing163.1; 08-03-2009 at 06:51 PM.
08-03-2009, 07:15 PM
#242
Banned
Thread Starter
This is for the 1,000’s of boat people out there who have followed this link.
All business owners/sales people/engineers/tradesman who read this can all agree that the “good, the bad and the ugly exist”. I have close connections with an attorney and they state the single biggest issue in court that exists is “he said she said”. Bottom line is getting it in writing.
The builder’s response brings this project back to the true beginning:
Several builders and options where reviewed before these motors left Chicago. The motors were running pieces with no mechanical issues other than low compression test values and potentially- as dyno’d- low dyno numbers. Yes the boat did run 147mph on its last running day before tear down.
This builder was identified through this site. I personally think this builder is highly competent and to all of those out there backing him—good you should. I personally did not choose him- not due to competency questions but simply “Distance”. I like builders and shops that I can walk into and look in the face and ask the questions. Call it personal preference. I also liked other combinations- cams, head guys etc… And in defense of the builder there are many ways to produce this motor and meet the horsepower goals. Getting two competent builders to agree an all items- line item by line item- would be like sending a hundred woman into a store with a 1000 purses and asking them to choose one. But- in the end it is the choice of the guy with the check book.
Now – back to the facts. I contacted this builder at the request of Runnin Hot to review the project and review his responses. While I am not the caliber of builders listed in these pages- my experience level is higher than some (how about a 557inch bow tie in 1987 – on the street and one year later in a boat).
While the builder had the right “answers” the right suggestions- one subject that was covered with him was – Runnin Hot and how to deal with Runnin Hot.
Runnin Hot is a perfectionist. Quite simply nearly anal as compared to most of us on what we consider “right/adequate” . I made that clear as a bell – restating it and restating it to the builder before the project started. I noted to him that Runnin Hot’s engine compartment floor is cleaner than most peoples house floor. When I work on his boat one of his kids pretty well follows me with paper towels and 409. I also know Runnin Hot not cheap when it comes to money. I know him to be true to their word- personally and in business. Yes – he is a very successful business man- a service business - which must mean he must be doing what he says he will do. I also told the builder in question that some builders and sellers in the past had not been as forthcoming ($$$ growing) as they should and that Runnin Hot was now gun shy of builders- to be careful.
My solution- a contract.
I had sent the builder a contract for him to complete and sign. It was to list all goods and services to be supplied and rendered.
Potentially start before thanksgiving
Heads must start making power by 4000rpm and pull through 7200rpm.
Extended run periods. Cam will be matched to your work.
Any additions to the above that requires $$ above the agreed to work needs written communication and agreement.
Larry's Engine and Marine has indicated experience and the knowledge to perform the agreed to task.
This is a piece of it. Other parts include hard parts, labor, and issues to be determined….
The builder did not want to fill this out – I think uncomfortable would describe the issue.
I made a second call to the builder to make it clear that this was not a document to make the project hard it was protecting Runnin Hot and the builder himself.
I sent this 3x’s asking the builder to fill it out and sign it. In truth Runnin Hot asked me to back off the builder that I would upset him. He was defending the builder. I backed off as requested.
But – the builder did send one of these back filled out. Essentially completing/agreeing to the verbage noted here. If you read even the short piece of the contract – the basics of the project are laid out.
He was told that Runnin Hot was a perfectionist. He was told how to deal with him. The builder chose not to follow the suggested course.
Runnin Hot later defended the builder – defending the tuning of the motor when it was realized that the carbs fuel curve had been changed- by a lot. The dyno time, money spent- “How can there be an issue?”
Runnin Hot was in the builder’s corner the whole time – the builder supplied his required parts, the dyno, the tune….. Other competent people’s opinions were put to the side in favor of the builders.
There are some very specific questions/queries that have not been answered by the builder from earlier e-mails- specific motor questions that have not been addressed.
Not getting into the crate, oil tubes, carbs… The morning of the run: Runnin Hot called me with a question of “what type of water to run” (could not find distilled that am) with the Methanol. Why would he do that if one he was going to run straight Methanol and two was not going to run it?
When the motors failed and the first parts started to arrive as replacements- I asked Runnin Hot who was paying for the parts- Runnin Hot said the builder. The builder was going to take care of the parts and Runnin Hot was going to take care of the labor. At least in Runnin Hot’s mind – things were going to move forward.
Until a $4000 bill arrived. Things went wrong then. How many of you would not “have something” go wrong then?
The builder has chosen to put the issue on Runnin Hot:
1) What would the cost have been for the builder to make sure the “system” was right?
2) Why is that not in writing?
3) For the builder this is over $4000. For Runnin Hot it is $$$$$ a lesson learned and a lost season.
4) Why is the timing changing?
As a note answering specifics from the builders response –
1) Some of the wrist pins had turned blue, the bottoms of the pistons were black and the piston manufacturer said throw all of the pistons in the garbage they had failed under the conditions. Was this damage the lack of Methanol only?
2) A 9:1 motor should not burn down at less than 5lbs of boost or less. The letter infers that all of your motors need the Methanol at 6lbs boost or more…
3) Supply the post that indicates the switches were turned off.
4) How did you do a part throttle test – did you reset the Methanol to come on at ……???
5) The carbs- either the new needles, idle screws where thrown on, the carbs sabotaged or something- the units were unbelievably out of adjustment. Also I believe the builder noted that the motors idled at 1500rpm- about right for a system that is flooding.
6) Detonation should be covered if the timing is not right and the fuel is not right: Who set those?
a. With the heat the pistons bottoms received and the heat the wrist pins received- what about pre-ignition??
7) Pistons- yes the current configuration produced by the builder is unique as compared to others who have quoted this job or added their opinion. Did not say wrong- just different.
The preponderance of responsibility lies with the business owner –not the client. That is also in court not just in this forum.
But – for all of you out there- it does not matter if it is $500 or $80,000. Contract. Contract. Contract.
How much, not to exceed, no additional, goals (speeds, cruising speeds upper and lower, rpm limits), who has responsibility and accepted responsibility, exceptions…
Several supporting documents lie in a software format and can not be transferred here including the contract.
To the builder- you were told how to proceed – you chose not to. This does not make Runnin Hot a liar, fibber, story maker. If he was the expert that you are he would not send you the motors in the first place (preponderance again). Bringing on the methanol earlier is a band aid. Actually – it probably would not have saved the motor for the record. Your business is going to continue doing well- you can use the pistons in the next build- you have only lost minutes of time on this site.
Some mistakes exist here- But again the preponderance of the issue lies where?
But lesson “learned” for all those involved and have followed this.
Runnin Hot will be running in a few weeks. No melt downs – I promise.
How much, not to exceed, no additional, goals (speeds, cruising speeds upper and lower, rpm limits), who has responsibility and accepted responsibility, exceptions…
In WRITING.
All business owners/sales people/engineers/tradesman who read this can all agree that the “good, the bad and the ugly exist”. I have close connections with an attorney and they state the single biggest issue in court that exists is “he said she said”. Bottom line is getting it in writing.
The builder’s response brings this project back to the true beginning:
Several builders and options where reviewed before these motors left Chicago. The motors were running pieces with no mechanical issues other than low compression test values and potentially- as dyno’d- low dyno numbers. Yes the boat did run 147mph on its last running day before tear down.
This builder was identified through this site. I personally think this builder is highly competent and to all of those out there backing him—good you should. I personally did not choose him- not due to competency questions but simply “Distance”. I like builders and shops that I can walk into and look in the face and ask the questions. Call it personal preference. I also liked other combinations- cams, head guys etc… And in defense of the builder there are many ways to produce this motor and meet the horsepower goals. Getting two competent builders to agree an all items- line item by line item- would be like sending a hundred woman into a store with a 1000 purses and asking them to choose one. But- in the end it is the choice of the guy with the check book.
Now – back to the facts. I contacted this builder at the request of Runnin Hot to review the project and review his responses. While I am not the caliber of builders listed in these pages- my experience level is higher than some (how about a 557inch bow tie in 1987 – on the street and one year later in a boat).
While the builder had the right “answers” the right suggestions- one subject that was covered with him was – Runnin Hot and how to deal with Runnin Hot.
Runnin Hot is a perfectionist. Quite simply nearly anal as compared to most of us on what we consider “right/adequate” . I made that clear as a bell – restating it and restating it to the builder before the project started. I noted to him that Runnin Hot’s engine compartment floor is cleaner than most peoples house floor. When I work on his boat one of his kids pretty well follows me with paper towels and 409. I also know Runnin Hot not cheap when it comes to money. I know him to be true to their word- personally and in business. Yes – he is a very successful business man- a service business - which must mean he must be doing what he says he will do. I also told the builder in question that some builders and sellers in the past had not been as forthcoming ($$$ growing) as they should and that Runnin Hot was now gun shy of builders- to be careful.
My solution- a contract.
I had sent the builder a contract for him to complete and sign. It was to list all goods and services to be supplied and rendered.
Potentially start before thanksgiving
Heads must start making power by 4000rpm and pull through 7200rpm.
Extended run periods. Cam will be matched to your work.
Any additions to the above that requires $$ above the agreed to work needs written communication and agreement.
Larry's Engine and Marine has indicated experience and the knowledge to perform the agreed to task.
This is a piece of it. Other parts include hard parts, labor, and issues to be determined….
The builder did not want to fill this out – I think uncomfortable would describe the issue.
I made a second call to the builder to make it clear that this was not a document to make the project hard it was protecting Runnin Hot and the builder himself.
I sent this 3x’s asking the builder to fill it out and sign it. In truth Runnin Hot asked me to back off the builder that I would upset him. He was defending the builder. I backed off as requested.
But – the builder did send one of these back filled out. Essentially completing/agreeing to the verbage noted here. If you read even the short piece of the contract – the basics of the project are laid out.
He was told that Runnin Hot was a perfectionist. He was told how to deal with him. The builder chose not to follow the suggested course.
Runnin Hot later defended the builder – defending the tuning of the motor when it was realized that the carbs fuel curve had been changed- by a lot. The dyno time, money spent- “How can there be an issue?”
Runnin Hot was in the builder’s corner the whole time – the builder supplied his required parts, the dyno, the tune….. Other competent people’s opinions were put to the side in favor of the builders.
There are some very specific questions/queries that have not been answered by the builder from earlier e-mails- specific motor questions that have not been addressed.
Not getting into the crate, oil tubes, carbs… The morning of the run: Runnin Hot called me with a question of “what type of water to run” (could not find distilled that am) with the Methanol. Why would he do that if one he was going to run straight Methanol and two was not going to run it?
When the motors failed and the first parts started to arrive as replacements- I asked Runnin Hot who was paying for the parts- Runnin Hot said the builder. The builder was going to take care of the parts and Runnin Hot was going to take care of the labor. At least in Runnin Hot’s mind – things were going to move forward.
Until a $4000 bill arrived. Things went wrong then. How many of you would not “have something” go wrong then?
The builder has chosen to put the issue on Runnin Hot:
1) What would the cost have been for the builder to make sure the “system” was right?
2) Why is that not in writing?
3) For the builder this is over $4000. For Runnin Hot it is $$$$$ a lesson learned and a lost season.
4) Why is the timing changing?
As a note answering specifics from the builders response –
1) Some of the wrist pins had turned blue, the bottoms of the pistons were black and the piston manufacturer said throw all of the pistons in the garbage they had failed under the conditions. Was this damage the lack of Methanol only?
2) A 9:1 motor should not burn down at less than 5lbs of boost or less. The letter infers that all of your motors need the Methanol at 6lbs boost or more…
3) Supply the post that indicates the switches were turned off.
4) How did you do a part throttle test – did you reset the Methanol to come on at ……???
5) The carbs- either the new needles, idle screws where thrown on, the carbs sabotaged or something- the units were unbelievably out of adjustment. Also I believe the builder noted that the motors idled at 1500rpm- about right for a system that is flooding.
6) Detonation should be covered if the timing is not right and the fuel is not right: Who set those?
a. With the heat the pistons bottoms received and the heat the wrist pins received- what about pre-ignition??
7) Pistons- yes the current configuration produced by the builder is unique as compared to others who have quoted this job or added their opinion. Did not say wrong- just different.
The preponderance of responsibility lies with the business owner –not the client. That is also in court not just in this forum.
But – for all of you out there- it does not matter if it is $500 or $80,000. Contract. Contract. Contract.
How much, not to exceed, no additional, goals (speeds, cruising speeds upper and lower, rpm limits), who has responsibility and accepted responsibility, exceptions…
Several supporting documents lie in a software format and can not be transferred here including the contract.
To the builder- you were told how to proceed – you chose not to. This does not make Runnin Hot a liar, fibber, story maker. If he was the expert that you are he would not send you the motors in the first place (preponderance again). Bringing on the methanol earlier is a band aid. Actually – it probably would not have saved the motor for the record. Your business is going to continue doing well- you can use the pistons in the next build- you have only lost minutes of time on this site.
Some mistakes exist here- But again the preponderance of the issue lies where?
But lesson “learned” for all those involved and have followed this.
Runnin Hot will be running in a few weeks. No melt downs – I promise.
How much, not to exceed, no additional, goals (speeds, cruising speeds upper and lower, rpm limits), who has responsibility and accepted responsibility, exceptions…
In WRITING.
08-03-2009, 09:32 PM
#243
Banned
Thread Starter
Damn,,,,,,SORRY to hear all this Bill !!!!!!!!
And for all others that think Bill is wrong ,,,the fact is he paid in full and did not get what he paid for .
+ its clearly with all the mess going on that the engine builder Now ,,just like before backs out and its absoluteley not his fault ?????!!!!!!! mmmmmmhhhhhhhh.
Then who's is it.
If my enginebuilder sends me a motor ( Dynoed ),ready to drop in. The timing is the last thing i check and therefore how should i know what it should be.
Just crazy.
Hey Bill,,, i say give him back all his parts and he should pay u back every dime.
And then find an other builder.
These are defenatley 1/4 mile dragster engines. NOT BOAT MOTORS.
STAY AWAY FROM BUILDERS LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!
And for all others that think Bill is wrong ,,,the fact is he paid in full and did not get what he paid for .
+ its clearly with all the mess going on that the engine builder Now ,,just like before backs out and its absoluteley not his fault ?????!!!!!!! mmmmmmhhhhhhhh.
Then who's is it.
If my enginebuilder sends me a motor ( Dynoed ),ready to drop in. The timing is the last thing i check and therefore how should i know what it should be.
Just crazy.
Hey Bill,,, i say give him back all his parts and he should pay u back every dime.
And then find an other builder.
These are defenatley 1/4 mile dragster engines. NOT BOAT MOTORS.
STAY AWAY FROM BUILDERS LIKE THAT !!!!!!!!
OH YEAH So he claims he builds 175 motors per year = 3.36 per year out the door but a couple Gs in pistons to cover there Phuch up may have put them under
Per STEPHANIE I've taken care of your pistons but the Casidium wrist pins are your problem call Chuck at Precision products in NC and buy them ..OK so i buy them same day and pay in full if Larry was'nt buying the pistons & gaskets why not order the wrist pins and put them on my BILL also ?????
Lets hear this one ......
08-03-2009, 09:47 PM
#244
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 701
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no offense to you runin-hot but why would you ship motors all the way to AZ if you live in ill. and if your so dead set on perfection it seems stupid to ship motors across the country when you could have driven them to sterling??
08-04-2009, 07:38 AM
#246
Banned
Thread Starter
Phuch me once shame on me , Phuch me twice shame on U:
angry-smiley-038:
08-04-2009, 07:49 AM
#247
Banned
Thread Starter
Bill,,,no doubt he could of done that. and why not ,,beats me.
But anyhow the next engine i order will be on your bill so don't worry. LOL
Let me know whats going on Bro.
>>>>>> DAVE, i think its up to the owner where he buys his engines ?! NO ??
Also the way i know the story is that this builder was recomented for the meth injection and suposaly be the best ????? mmhhhh.
But anyhow the next engine i order will be on your bill so don't worry. LOL
Let me know whats going on Bro.
>>>>>> DAVE, i think its up to the owner where he buys his engines ?! NO ??
Also the way i know the story is that this builder was recomented for the meth injection and suposaly be the best ????? mmhhhh.
A legend in his own mind this guy LARRY
, His claim to FAME was the meth system ,BIG CHIEF HEADS, and supercharged motors and his are all over the country and shipping daily .... so they say 
I do believe the motors would still be running if they built them for 93 octane and used the methanol for a safety factor over 9 lbs of boost to help with the EGTs just like the motors did 200+ hours before they took them apart... I did'nt order drag car motors,shootout motors , i ordered POKER RUN MOTORS
Plain & Simple
08-04-2009, 10:04 AM
#249
Banned
Thread Starter
08-04-2009, 10:08 AM
#250
Registered
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 495
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Sh*t, the pics didn't show up.......
