No.....it isn't. It's redundant, confusing, uncompetitive, and has very few identifiable stars or personalities. It is no longer even a shadow of its former self....... it is basically an excuse for a bunch of guys to party together...and while I can understand that anyone can spend his money anyway he chooses....that doesn't mean anybody else wants to watch it.

The point about "Offshore" racing is correct. If you are going to call it offshore...then by God race offshore. If you want circle racing you are much better off tuning in to Formula One tunnel boats or Unlimited Hydroplanes which were designed for the closed course format, have better, more skilled and talented drivers , and understand that an extra guy (Throttleman) making split second decisions in a tight turn is a definite disadvantage. The whole throttleman concept was created to allow the driver to navigate and keep both hands on the wheel while a second guy could concentrate solely on reading the waves and coordinating the engine/drivetrain to the frequent airborne conditions in big seas....... in calm water the throttleman is little more than an albatross..... unless the driver is not experienced enough to handle the boat at speed ( a common occurence). The other problem with a throttleman is it creates a second guy to rescue, get injured or bury when the worst case scenarios happen.....and, sadly, they do.

T2x

Whatever you or anyone else has on the "drawing board", remember 3 things.

1. In racing less is more........ get rid of the idiotic, self serving, complex, splinter groups, and classes.

2. JC has lost his APBA license (yet another in a decades long string of broken promises by OPT-SBR-SBI). If ever there was a time to unify under the APBA/UIM banner (Which I have always advocated)....now is the time.

3. Don't build on today's tired paradigm.....Build on something that requires, skill, develops personalities, forces the racers to compete with each other...and ignores the wannabes, and wallet racers (who are frequently the same guys).

Oh...and one more thing.....if it ain't televised....it's going nowhere.

T2x

AMEN ! - X 2 Richie - -

It will succeed when they do this.

What you are talking about already exists. It's called Unlimited Hydroplane. What you see today is NOT offshore racing. To call it offshore racing is an insult to those of us that raced offshore. We drew bigger crowds and got more TV coverage than anything you see today. I have to laugh that you call a 7 mile course a long course. That should be a 1/2 of 1 leg of a course. Either change the name of this so-called offshore racing or go back to racing offshore. Do most of todays racers even know where Sand Key is? FYI, it's that marker about 10 miles or so straight ahead of turn 1 at Key West.

Call it what you want, for spectators to sit by the race course and see a boat race by once in a while and usually some distances from them on a long course is and always will be boring for the spectators and that is partially why you don't have the crowds that other sports have and televised. I remember back in the 80's APBA had a race on the the Detroit River with such names as Betty Cook and Al Copland, they raced by us up the Detroit River and went out into Lake St. Clair and around the lake and then came back around an hour and a half later. Now tell me with these two legends of Offshore, if that was an exciting race for the spectators. I remember in 2007 one of the fastest OFFSHORE POWERBOAT RACES in history was held on a 8 mile course on the ST. Clair River and the Bud Select Boat and Miss Geico put on a race that I still remember to this day and hit speeds of 180 MPH. That length course was great for them at that speed but if it were a little short we would have almost continuous race action. At the Gold Cup Races where Offshore puts on an exhibition race every year, Offshore's seem to draw more fan excitement and when the Hydro's can't run because of wind the Offshores are in their element. Call it what you want shorter is better then longer in this case at least for the fans.

After talking my grandfather into taking me to my first offshore race in the early 1970's, he didn't think it was fun waiting for raceboats to go by every 20 minutes, he prefered the side by side racing of speed skiffs.

Offshore racing was never meant as a spectator sport....That's what TV helicopters are for.

I agree with your grandfather.....and he can still see closed course racing with speed skiffs, and hydros, and tunnel boats today.

Please help me figure out what the short courses have done to help the growth of offshore racing as a sport. There have never been fewer boats racing and there have never been more classes. If the quality of the product on short courses is so wonderful, why don't you see the guys doing the video of the races posting segments online to increase interest. Go to youtube and find me anything but a glorified music video of a short course race. On the other hand, look at some of the stuff that is out there from Phil and Rich and it's always about the racing. IN MY OPINION, a key reason for no coverage for shourt course racing is becauase it's boring and confusing. I think it's great that these boats can go 180mph. But that doesn't make them offshore boats. Offshore racing was never meant to find the top speed or the cornering capability of a boat. It was meant to pit man and machine against the elements.

I still don't understand why all of these changes that have been made to gain spectators have resulted in fewer spectators and followers.

Lake St. Clair - OK - it can get rough there -but the DETROIT River - um... -oh - thats right - its OFFSHORE - one side is Canada - the other the US - forgot ! (it still is RIVER racing -)

Years ago - the likes of Bobby Routboard, Eddie LeCareau, Bill Wishnick, Doc Magoon - Tom Gentry - and others - raced not for TV - or the crowds - it was a rich mans sport - unto themselves - if people went to sites like Point Pleasant - they would enjoy seeing the rigs at the Kings Grant Inn - then the parades thru town, maybe the Blue Angels would put on a show - also the Bud Clydesdales -(sp - never graduated high school) - and then watch the boats run out the inlet - and that was it - People did not stay glued to a seat it was the atmosphere - not just watching a boat - Years later when I got involved, we tried to bring what happened out of site - to the masses - I can remember having a truck - with several large TVs - and people would leave the boardwalk at night and stop by and watch what really happened offshore - They then could see what happens out of site of land -

Today - Offshore is a Wallet check - how much can you spend - and how big a rig - or how many rigs can you support - whats the saying - "if it dont go - chrome it" - Back in the day - and I mean early days - you would not see Don Arronow in a Jump suit - never saw him like that - same with Doc Magooon - or Willie Meyers or Tony Azzara - but towards the late 70s - fashion took over - however - we were still lucky to be able to film boats in rough water - Anyone that wants to see what Offshore is really like - take a look at BIG SEAS - Big Seas 85 - it was a rough year - when you see the likes of two superboats - Maggies MerCruiser with George Morrales, and Popeyes with Al Copeland - running side by side - 50 ft boats or so - and both jumping out of the water - well - what does that tell you - ? THATS OFFSHORE ! even in those days- they needed a compass - not just land marks to guide them -

Today a race is shortened to a mini lap if the seas are 3 ft. - back in the day - no one even looked at the weather forcast - it was only called off if a huricane was there.

Here are some photos that were NOT TAKEN IN THE RIVER - or in the bay !

It would be interesting to see where boat design would go if they started doing long off shore racing again.

Offshore- not INSHORE
 

more photos

one more

I've got a new idea: Lets invite all the drug dealers or con artist to get back involved with racing!! They bring there own entourage to the races, their own helicopters, multiple boats, and that "great image" we currently don't have. They can race in parade formation-just like the old days. Then to top it off, they can hire someone to do press releases. This would allow them to boost their ego's, let everyone know how great of a racer they are, and let everyone know how tough they are to have raced!:eek:

You know what they say about a few bad apples. They are always the ones that get the press. No deifferent than any other sport or any other part of society. Were Al Copeland and Tom Gentry con men and drug dealers? They were the 2 biggest spenders out there, but you don't hear about them. They also never backed down from rough water. The majority of poeple racing back then were not invlolved any illegal activities. That's not to say there weren't some white collar criminals. But you get that in any era.

What do you mean by parade formation? Are you saying we were not racing to win. If that's the case, you could not be any more wrong. The reason I quit, was because I could not race to win anymore. I was afraid after my accident. I figured why race if you can't race to win.

Go for it Rob !

totally agree. TV brings it to the masses.

The bottom line is, 99% of the population doesn't care about powerboats or watching them race. With essentially no one to watch it, the advertisers won't invest. With no ad revenue the networks will never produce it.

I could see Racing POSSIBLY growing in popularity/awareness IF the interest was developed off of just the RIGHT documentary/reality style tv show, with TRULY interesting personalities. I spent 10 years at DCI and another 10 with SPEED and other networks more recently. I'm sure it is possible, but alot of things have to fall into place.

Boy! You really have an issue with drug dealers........I hate to tell you this but a lot of today's racers have (proudly) told me stories about how they "knew" this or that big time dealer back in the day. Much of this is B.S. because as they are telling me these tall tails, they are getting years, boats, and crew members all wrong. But I laugh and nod my head enjoying the stories while watching them make fools of themselves.

I've got a flash for you....... without that "industry" the offshore performance market probably wouldn't exist today ...and as bad as those guys were in some ways....they actually raced against each other..... flat out and balls to the wall..... something you don't see today. Even the "legit" racers (Gentry, Copeland, the Lavins, Kaiser, et al) loved to race against....and respected.....the bad boys. Other (respected to this day) legendary throttlemen, crew chiefs and drivers had no hesitation in selling, rigging, and getting in the same boats with these guys to test or race.

One more thing........ their budgets were probably smaller than Geico's.....yet there were a bunch of them...so you at least had a competition.....not a bunch of GPS addicts locked side by side by 3 satellites 100 miles out in space making believe (or being fooled into thinking) they are "deck to deck" racing.

So, the point is...... If you have "issues" with the bad boys.....

Get over it.

You'd probably be surprised how some of today's party boy "playahz" make their money.

T2x

I agree , except the reality show thing.... Somehow Jeff Gordon, Michael Schumacher, and John Force all became major motorsport personalities without appearing even one time on "Survivor" or a "Behind the scenes" documentary. What they did have was a proper printed/televised media effort to get their stories out to the public...and a knowledgeable broadcast team of commentators who added well timed background stories during the races (Formula 1 has the absolute best IMHO).

I spent years trying to develop stars for offshore.... and we had good material...... JT (personable and talented-- sort of a Jimmy Johnson). Joey Imprescia ( the earthy hired "gunslinger" and rough water genius)....... Stevie Curtis (The unpredictable mad man with hair trigger reflexes and no limits). Richie Powers ( who quietly beat you). Jim Dyke ( master of the late race "charge"), (Jerry Gilbreath master set up guy who got more out of less than anyone- he could take his and beat you...and then swap boats....and beat you)....etc. But these stories never came out. Instead you had travelogues of the race site, interviews with sponsors and big money owner/drivers who didn't stay around long enough to make a name for themselves, and race promoters telling everyone how they were re-engineering the competition model....again.

Hard as it is to believe, talented people can become stars without winning "American Idol".

T2x

I wish you would do that more often. :drink:

I would defend the bad boys too if I made a money off them....Once again the older you get the better it was....

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the race results for the Benihanna in the late 1970's, many boats finished an hour behind the winner-and you call that great racing???

Looking at most of the Youtube videos, most video's are boats running solo with no one else in sight. When there were boats "deck to deck" we heard how great the racing was.

Which of these Offshore sites were Offshore, 25 years ago?? Lake Ponchatraine (sp), Tampa Bay, Detroit River, Hudson River, Lake St.Clair, Barnegat Bay or Lake Winnepesaki(sp)???

It does not have to be in the ocean to be offshore racing. Lake Pontchartrain was a long course on relatively flat water. You still had to navigate to find a checkpoint. Detroit River (Wyandotte), you went out into Lake Erie, lost sight of land, had to find 1 or 2 checkpoints in brutal water conditions and then come back to the river. Tampa Bay went into the Gulf. The first Hudson River races had a leg that went out into the Altlantic. Barnegat Bay was only NPBA (regional) racing. And even those races were about 100 miles. Don't know about the other 2.

Fast Shafts, have you ever raced? I'm 42, so age has not gotten that much of my memory. I was fortunate enough to race in 3 of the most crowded classes ever in offshore racing. Pro Stock, and 2 Stock classes. I raced against J.D. D'Elia, Bob Erickson, Pete Aitken, Dom Palombi, Kirk and Alan Dunteman and many, many other great racers. I had what I considered to be the best T-man and rigger in the business, Kurt Berger. I won the World Championships in 1985 and the age of 18 years and 10 months. A record that still stands. I'm not trying to inflate my own ego because I have no need to. Just saying that I have been there and done that.

So you would prostitute yourself for money????? I'm shocked.



In some of the races like the Bahama's 500 some of the boats finished days later....and some crews needed rescuing on the high seas..... it was really boring.

I don't remember You Tube having a helicopter back then. The only videos I have seen on You Tube are grainy shorts watched by guys who are too cheap to buy the actual full version which shows the entire race in context. However, I will agree that there are guys who are simply better at racing then others and there always were winners and losers. Today when you have no competition...Everybody's a winner...and a loser....at the same time. It's like Obama's "fair and equal" financial plan.

Let's see.......

Lake Pontchartrain is 35 miles across at its widest point, has a mean stiff wave pattern that builds to 6 feet quickly and the race course used to cross the lake 2 times..... (70 mile laps).

Tampa Bay ....The race started in Tampa Bay and then went out into the Gulf of Mexico...a small body of water with oysters in it.

Detroit River......... 3/4 of that race took place in Lake St Clair...which, while not the roughest body of water, had an oar boat sink in it that rendered compasses useless.......in the fog...which closed in during the race...... boring....the fans ( (That would be your family members and drinking buddies today) couldn't see you.

Hudson River....... That race started in the Hudson went out under the Verrazano and ended up in the Atlantic Ocean....another body of water with oysters in it...and clams too. Later the race went from the George Washington Bridge to the Tappan Zee with multiple laps so Don Johnson was never out of sight of Barbara Streisand. This is the model you love so much today where you can always wave at your Aunt Blanche.

Lake St Clair....... same as the Detroit river race...but they skipped the river, realizing that the Unlimited Hydros made the Offshores look silly on the same body of water. The current Offshore guys...who never learn it seems... made this painfully obvious when a couple of years ago some genius got the idea to run the big cats on the 2 mile long Unlimited course...resulting in wonderful spinouts and barrel rolls...and much laughing among the real racers on the Hydro teams.


Barnegat Bay....was never a National race and had no open class boats. It was basically a local race for local guys. One of the most popular classes featured our 21 footers so guys could learn how to drive ........this of course is not a requirement today and now if you can afford a 600 mph Turbine well, by gosh...... go ahead and race it.

Lake Winnepesaukee....the only races I recall at that location were a lot less than 25 years ago (1984).....more like 15 years ago...and already represented the short course inshore-"Offshore" model of today. Technically I guess toilet paper is "Off the shore" of a toilet bowl..... Come to think of it if you used a toilet bowl, you could control the venue, offer inexpensive TV coverage and even have room for more than one boat....as long as they are small enough. Eureka!!!! we have just detailed the natural trajectory of today's "competition" model (and I use the term loosely) to it's ultimate conclusion.

P.S. You can solve that spelling challenge you have by googling the name of the place you are struggling to (mis) spell.

Your humble servant........

T2x........ who, like Offshore racing, was better 25 years ago.

Technically I guess toilet paper is "Off the shore" of a toilet bowl..... Come to think of it if you used a toilet bowl, you could control the venue, offer inexpensive TV coverage and even have room for more than one boat....as long as they are small enough."

Rich I really have to thank you. I'm getting ready to take my wife for her 4th round of chemo tomorrow so I'm not in the best mood. You just made me laugh so hard I almost choked.

Thanks.

Those photos are part of an enormous library that Phil still owns......

He and his brother took those shots from the fastest available helicopters with the absolute best pilots in the world.... over all the major races. The cost to set up those shoots was very prohibitive...even back then

Call for prices...... :D

T2x

Gee and I thought I was really on to something.....

God Bless you and your wife.

Rich

Rich you're so easy to get cranked up!!! :p

Richie - U da Man !
 

I am laughing so much my side hurts - You have a way with words- always did - even in the Helicopter - why else did I turn off the audio when editing ? I knew you would do the best job - no need to edit you - right down to Dave Gilmore and up close and personal ! haha ! All I had to do was to say - "your on " meaning tape is rolling - you took it from there -


Offshore has an ICON in you - for sure - you could never be replaced - and we all are grateful to you for all of what you have said and written - and right up to this moment we still enjoy your commentary - even about Aunt Blanche ! haha !

We did over 240 events - all made interesting by your voice and ideas - I remember often you would see things out front of the helicopter - and your advice as to where to go - and where the action was, was invaluable ! I fondly think back to the days - when we worked together -

If you get to Key West ( am not going - more tests unfortunately) - say hi to the many people that were our clients back then - They made what we did possible -

Stay well Richie - u da man !

Phil

Photos Are Meant To Be Shared
 

I wonder if the cost is any cheaper today, although I imagine helo rentals for a real offshore race are based on a daily, not hourly, rate. :drink:

I'll never forget the very first time I called to book a helo- called a lady in Ft Myers. Forget who gave me number. When I told her what I was up to, she replied, "My helicopter isn't fast enough to keep up with those boats." :drink:

Imma hijack this thread for a minnit...

Re: Phil's library of offshore images.

Ya know- it's a new day and technology has opened up many new avenues for artists of all kinds. One thing that would be cool for someone like Phil is publishing-on-demand.

Do a book, Phil.

You know you want to. And there is surely a demand for all those images you are sitting on.

Go here and see just how easy it is: http://www.blurb.com/
Scroll to the bottom of the page and check out the over 16,000 titles in the arts and photography section of the bookstore.

Just an idea.

Back to the T2X owes me another keyboard thread. :lolhit:

I admire your work -
 

Our still photography was nothing compared to your work -

Phil

Thank you.

From what I've seen, I would beg to disagree with you. :drink:

"Do a book, Phil"

T2X is the one that should do a book - he and Darren have all the knowledge, facts, and stories that would curl your hair, and have you laughing all day long -


Phil

Ok, but his goes in the comedy section.

I bet a large coffee table style book- 14x14 or so, 60-80 pages of your pix would be a hit. Let T2X write the intro. :drink:

There is no doubt that there is plenty of knowledge on this thread...but lets try to be positive on how to get offshore racing headed in the right direction again.There are certain elements about the past and present format that should combined into what still can be the greatest motorsport ever.
Lets all work together for the betterment of the sport!

I agree Waterboy!!

Lets' just say that in the beginning, Offshore Powerboat Racing was on the ocean and no one ever thought about a short race course's or about spectators. Over the decades the boats have changed as well as the race course and spectators wanted to see more race action and continuous race action that the long Ocean races never could prove them with. Then Poker Runs came into being and over the last decade they have grown in size and popularity as everyone could participate in them and there were many boats that could easily have been Offshore race boats. With the introduction of Poker Runs I believe that it had stopped some boaters from getting into Offshore Powerboat Racing, when they could just go out in their new boats and see who was the fastest to each card stop. Promoting and developing race course for spectator viewing is very important. If the longer race courses are so great, why don't they bring them back and bring Offshore Powerboat Racing to it's glory years. You can't live in the past and blame the short course's for not bringing in the crowds. The fans and spectators don't want the longer courses where they can't see chit, they want to see race action and as close to them as possible. I'm sure that spectator's don't care whether you call it Offshore Powerboat Racing , Hydroplane Racing or what ever some want to call it, they want to see race action and the short course is what provides it to them. All we need is a healthier economy, the best race courses, that are spectator viewing friendly and unification so we can see more boats racing, more competition and live TV coverage of the races, which would educate people to what Offshore Powerboat Racing is and then maybe you could get some sponsors.

Phil,

Jay, does have some amazing work. BUT, I think the little bit you have shared, is quite amazing, considering the technology that was available, in the day & age, in which you shot. Since autofocus, did not exist in the Film SLR world, till Minolta introduced it in 1987, the clarity of your images, is a testament, to the eyes behind the lens.

I also, would love to see the libraries, of your images.

Regards,

James

Thanks James -

I respect your sentiment, but any effort that is based on the belief that Offshore Racing is the "greatest motorsport ever" is probably doomed. This is a prime example of the over exuberance that is so prevalent today.

It is no doubt exciting, but pales in comparison to other racing models.... even in the marine racing universe. THere is a 24 hour outboard event in Rheims, France that has night racing with headlights, pit stops, driver changes, and concrete walls on the river to deal with. You also need to attend a Champ boat or Unlimited race before you declare Offshore the Top Dog. Certainly the Indy 500, World 600, LeMans, and Monte Carlo aren't chopped liver either.

Basically, you have a niche sport with a limited but enthusiastic audience that deserves to be featured along with drag racing, Motocross, and other 2nd tier motorsports. That's not bad...and it will afford plenty of sponsorship, and publicity opportunities. To trumpet Offshore as something it's not and can never be is what got us into this mess in the first place.


You really have to take a step back and ask yourself if a sport that features a bunch of 5-35 year old hulls, in the majority, racing on short courses that they weren't designed for is really deserving of top billing against the likes of McLaren Mercedes, Penske, and Hendrick Motorsports...etc.

I would not call Motocross a "2nd tier" motorsport. Top riders are making in excess of $30mm annually and their entire indoor season is televised on a major network in primetime.