Mercury's Turbo Engines
12-19-2009, 08:44 AM
#42
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All though we never met.. but have talked on the phone a few times... I will second this.. no arogance in any of your posts.. and I apprieciate the knowledge that you bring to the board, especially on this topic.
For what it's worth, I had an opportunity to check some of these twin turbo Chief motors out at the 08 Jacksonville run. I can't remember the Gentlemen's name, nice older feller in a 43 NT cat pulled right next to me. These motors had a different sound all together, and were just as docile as my 700's, as he was docking next to me against the strong current. When he accelerated I was amazed how these motors pulled. Need less to say I was impressed with the package all the way around.
For what it's worth, I had an opportunity to check some of these twin turbo Chief motors out at the 08 Jacksonville run. I can't remember the Gentlemen's name, nice older feller in a 43 NT cat pulled right next to me. These motors had a different sound all together, and were just as docile as my 700's, as he was docking next to me against the strong current. When he accelerated I was amazed how these motors pulled. Need less to say I was impressed with the package all the way around.
Jassman,
Thanks for the kind words and it's always been a pleasure talking with you also. In regards to these turbo's everyone has there thoughts on the subject etc.
I guess the fact that these are being built less the 10 minutes from me opens up allot of exposure on what they really are doing with these.
And that is what makes it so exciting to see power at these levels, and reliability to follow. Check 300 has had that turbo engine in his boat since 1997. It's to the point where not many people car to play any more cause every one know's
the boat most commonly from the transom view
But it's quiter than a merc 330 idles at 400 rpms and is a peach around the docks.
Take Care
Jon
12-19-2009, 08:51 AM
#43
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I know my boat isn't consider to be a big boat, but it's not really that small either. It weighs about 6500 lbs. and although it has a #6 the prop is buried which means that we need to make good power at low rpms. The engine makes boost at under 1800 rpms. The throttle response is instantaneous with absolutely no lag.
I jumped him just on plane thinking the turbo lag would get him...I was wrong...
12-19-2009, 01:20 PM
#44
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I'm not being arogant so please just take this for what it's worth. But a properly set up turbo engine will out accelerate a blower any day of the week,....including the whipples.
Dustin doesn't care for this conversation, but I think your going to see a slow switch over.
As stated earlier in this thread they are more $$ to set up and can look complex,........but you reap the benifit's with reliabilty etc.
Thanks
Jon
Dustin doesn't care for this conversation, but I think your going to see a slow switch over.
As stated earlier in this thread they are more $$ to set up and can look complex,........but you reap the benifit's with reliabilty etc.
Thanks
Jon
Do you know how much a quad turbo engine is gonna cost from Merc? How about from an engine builder?
So turbos now reach full boost at 1700rpm? Or start to reach boost, meaning 1psi over barometric psi? Because 1psi and 15psi are pretty different power curves.
So your saying identical engines, identical intercoolers, identical air fuel, timing and boost and the turbo will out accelerate a twin-screw? Sorry, thats extremelly incorrect.
Turbo's make great HP because they take very little power to operate, but because they are dependent on exhaust flow, they can never equal throttle response in identical situations to an efficient positive displacement supercharger unless you introduce NOS or some other type of additive to get the turbo's to spool up quicker.
That does not mean they won't work, and that doesn't mean they have the lag of the old days, but turbos react off the engine, where a SC reacts off the throttle blades opening. No matter what, with today's technology, you can't get passed that. Its physics, can't defy those laws very often. Now what one refers to as lag may be different than the next. I drive a turbo diesel nearly every day, its got horrible lag, just awful, and thats with a lot of the new technology, and I've certainly tinkered with it plenty. When I get in our supercharged suburban, they're is zero comparison. If you say hey its got 1 psi at the hit of throttle and 1 second later, its 5psi, thats still "lag" when compared to a PD twin-screw. It may not be the lag of a single turbo, or a bad turbo system where you can count 1 missisipi, 2 missisipi before you finally get boost type lag, but in comparison, if you have less boost in an equal test, then thats lag.
Turbo's are extremely expensive and very complexed when done right. They're a packaging nightmare in many applications and with all the water jacketed headers absorbing such high heat from the high back psi and psi from the boosted side of the turbo, exhaust tend to go through more duty cycles than that of a PD supercharger. So turbo's are not free hp because they create tremendous back psi in the exhaust, this creates a lot of heat and that hot air is pushing the turbo impellers and it transfers that heat to the air charge exiting the turbos. But they're not dragging on the crankshaft so they'll almost always make more peak HP then positive displacement superchargers. Turbo's also can have small torque ranges, espeically with high HP engines which turn higher than average RPM, which is why you'll see Merc have 4 turbos, 2 small, 2 big, that helps the response time and helps give a better useable rpm range. Remember, what we all can do with custom built engines, Mercury has to "package" and warranty so it gets far more complexed. I think many will also be shocked to see what type of motor these are actually being installed on.
Last, turbo's in the automotive field are having major issues because they have a very negative effect on cold-start emissions, which is one of the biggest polluters of the cars today, before the cat's are lit off. This has posed a huge issue for turbo mfg' not to mention the fact that they can't get rid of the lag and the OE's target power numbers and OE's target price ranges. Many, such as Audi, VW, etc. have left turbos and went to PD style superchargers because OE's can't run 20psi of boost in most applications, so at 8-12psi, there is very little power differences, but there are huge torque differences.
So overall, turbo's are not gonna take over the world, they've been here and will continue, but they have some issues, just like all other power adders, and therefore they're will be customers who like one over another. Whether its useable rpm ranges, noise, peak hp or low end torque, price, packaging or whatever, there's a place for all of them.
Last edited by Whipple Charged; 12-19-2009 at 02:01 PM.
12-19-2009, 01:24 PM
#45
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I have a turbo diesel super duty truck and the lag is terrible. I have a supercharged car and holy crap it hits hard and right now. I have never driven a turbo car I liked yet (owned 2) compared to a SC car. I agree turbos make great power but fail to see how you can overcome physics of a turbo needing air to move and create boost. There will be a lag, nothing said here will convince me otherwise. Slow switch over? I am not so sure.
Why is Mercury's Verado lineup supercharged not turbo? Those engines are very responsive and are not failing.
Why is Mercury's Verado lineup supercharged not turbo? Those engines are very responsive and are not failing.
One good reason, couldn't fit 1 big and 1 small turbo in there, and all the water jacketed headers! Not to mention the smaller motors need even more help from PD's SC's because they don't generate much torque on they're own.
12-19-2009, 01:57 PM
#46
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Wow thats a pretty arrogant statement!
Do you know how much a quad turbo engine is gonna cost from Merc? How about from an engine builder?
So turbos now reach full boost at 1700rpm? Or start to reach boost, meaning 1psi over ambient? Because 1psi and 15psi are pretty different power curves.
So your saying identical engines, identical intercoolers, identical air fuel, timing and boost and the turbo will out accelerate? Sorry, thats extremelly incorrect.
Turbo's make great HP because they take very little power to operate, but because they are dependent on exhaust flow, they can never equal throttle response in identical situations to an efficient positive displacement supercharger unless you introduce NOS or some other type of additive to get the turbo's to spool up quicker.
That does not mean they won't work, and that doesn't mean they have the lag of the old days, but turbos react off the engine, where a SC reacts off the throttle blades opening. No matter what, with today's technology, you can't get passed that. Its physics, can't defy those laws very often. Now what one refers to as lag may be different than the next. I drive a turbo diesel nearly every day, its got horrible lag, just awful, and thats with a lot of the new technology, and I've certainlyed tinkered with it plenty. When I get in our supercharged suburban, they're is zero comparison. If you say hey its got 1 psi at the hit of throttle and 1 second later, its 5psi, thats still "lag" when compared to a PD twin-screw. It may not be the lag of a single turbo, or a bad turbo system where you can count 1 missisipi, 2 missisipi before you finally get boost type lag, but in comparison, if you have less boost in an equal test, then thats lag.
Turbo's are extremely expensive and very complexed when done right. They're a packaging nightmare in many applications and with all the water jacketed headers absorbing such high heat from the high back psi and psi from the boosted side of the turbo, exhaust tend to go through more duty cycles than that of a PD supercharger. So turbo's are not free hp because they create tremendous back psi in the exhaust, this creates a lot of heat. But they're not dragging on the crankshaft so they'll almost always make more peak HP than positive displacement superchargers. Turbo's also can have small torque ranges, espeically with high HP engines, which is why you'll see Merc have 4 turbos, 2 small, 2 big, that helps the response time and helps give a better useable rpm range. Remember, what we all can do with custom built engines, Mercury has to "package" and warranty so it gets far more complexed. I think many will also be shocked to see what type of motor these are actually being installed on.
Last, turbo's in the automotive field are having major issues because they have a very negative effect on cold-start emissions, which is one of the biggest polluters of the cars today, before the cat's are lit off. This has posed a huge issue for turbo mfg' not to mention the fact that they can't get rid of the lag and the OE's target power numbers and OE's target price ranges. Many, such as Audi, VW, etc. have left turbos and went to PD style superchargers because OE's can't run 20psi of boost in most applications, so at 8-12psi, there is very little power differences, but there are huge torque differences.
Do you know how much a quad turbo engine is gonna cost from Merc? How about from an engine builder?
So turbos now reach full boost at 1700rpm? Or start to reach boost, meaning 1psi over ambient? Because 1psi and 15psi are pretty different power curves.
So your saying identical engines, identical intercoolers, identical air fuel, timing and boost and the turbo will out accelerate? Sorry, thats extremelly incorrect.
Turbo's make great HP because they take very little power to operate, but because they are dependent on exhaust flow, they can never equal throttle response in identical situations to an efficient positive displacement supercharger unless you introduce NOS or some other type of additive to get the turbo's to spool up quicker.
That does not mean they won't work, and that doesn't mean they have the lag of the old days, but turbos react off the engine, where a SC reacts off the throttle blades opening. No matter what, with today's technology, you can't get passed that. Its physics, can't defy those laws very often. Now what one refers to as lag may be different than the next. I drive a turbo diesel nearly every day, its got horrible lag, just awful, and thats with a lot of the new technology, and I've certainlyed tinkered with it plenty. When I get in our supercharged suburban, they're is zero comparison. If you say hey its got 1 psi at the hit of throttle and 1 second later, its 5psi, thats still "lag" when compared to a PD twin-screw. It may not be the lag of a single turbo, or a bad turbo system where you can count 1 missisipi, 2 missisipi before you finally get boost type lag, but in comparison, if you have less boost in an equal test, then thats lag.
Turbo's are extremely expensive and very complexed when done right. They're a packaging nightmare in many applications and with all the water jacketed headers absorbing such high heat from the high back psi and psi from the boosted side of the turbo, exhaust tend to go through more duty cycles than that of a PD supercharger. So turbo's are not free hp because they create tremendous back psi in the exhaust, this creates a lot of heat. But they're not dragging on the crankshaft so they'll almost always make more peak HP than positive displacement superchargers. Turbo's also can have small torque ranges, espeically with high HP engines, which is why you'll see Merc have 4 turbos, 2 small, 2 big, that helps the response time and helps give a better useable rpm range. Remember, what we all can do with custom built engines, Mercury has to "package" and warranty so it gets far more complexed. I think many will also be shocked to see what type of motor these are actually being installed on.
Last, turbo's in the automotive field are having major issues because they have a very negative effect on cold-start emissions, which is one of the biggest polluters of the cars today, before the cat's are lit off. This has posed a huge issue for turbo mfg' not to mention the fact that they can't get rid of the lag and the OE's target power numbers and OE's target price ranges. Many, such as Audi, VW, etc. have left turbos and went to PD style superchargers because OE's can't run 20psi of boost in most applications, so at 8-12psi, there is very little power differences, but there are huge torque differences.
12-19-2009, 02:07 PM
#47
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Of course we don't make full boost at 1700 rpms but then neither does a pd sc. We do make full boost at 3000 rpms and the response from throttle application to 24lbs of boost is not more than 1 sec. Does your pd sc reach full boost at 3000rpms? Small torque range? Our engine is over 1000 ft lbs from 2200 rpms on up.
12-19-2009, 02:44 PM
#48
As Dustin stated, You may be surprised what motors Mercury has installing these turbos on. Mecury has been doing R&D on some motors for the last 6 years and they weren't on BBC's
12-19-2009, 04:36 PM
#49
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Every thing i have driven with a turbo suffers from lag,diesel truck big time,honda jet ski some ,wrx some,old gale banks bb big time,now i am sure the new modern ones much better and having 4 could work good,but would be very expensive and hard to work on,the twin screw blowers work great on boats have awesome throttle response and working on the engine is easy.
12-19-2009, 05:58 PM
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you can set up a turbo system with a variable vane turbo, or turbo's, use a wastegate and a bypass valve, that will cut down a lot on lag cause the bypass valve will recirc the boost back to the intake side keeping the turbo spooled up at lower eng. speeds. check out some of the wild twin turbo setups on the 10.5 outlaw class at a dragstrip,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkzVs...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WFpQ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkzVs...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WFpQ...eature=related
Last edited by H2Xmark; 12-19-2009 at 06:02 PM.
