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Banks Sequential Super Turbo Marine diesel engine

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Old 02-12-2010, 11:44 AM
  #41
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powerabout - I know I'm long winded in my answers and I appoligize, it's just me!

LOL - 855 twin tubo gen set the 450hp / 475hp version had a few of them!! Built a bunch of KTTA's for head end power in passenger locomotives - know all them well!

The TT's never lasted as long a single I can you that not making 12,000 plus hrs running hard.

Anyway, Sutphen about manifold design, wheel sizes, etc that all can add to restrictions / pressure. I'll be honest, like he said the goal is 1:1, very hard not impossible (this is why I refernce Jim Fueling, read some of his stuff). Most of the tuner kits, reprogramers etc for the pick-up truck diesels do nothing but dump in fuel which leads to exactly what he says probably 2:1 which is bad.

I'll say compare a boat to a pick-up truck, how many % of the time will the truck make full boost / Hp - under 1% is the norm (even in a class 8 road tractor). In a boat if you put it to the pins it makes 100% boost / Hp until you let off the throttle.

That is why when you put these pick-up truck type modified engines in a boat they go bang!

Gettting back to valve flutter, when it does that it puts slack in the valve train which again beats things to hell. You'll see valves break at the stem and face. If you run those 855's with twins you had to have valve break, we lost them a few times where single turbos never drop a valve?

The twin turbo set-up if you gauge between the two turbos is a high volume low pressure to a high pressure turbo, the boost isn't all that great they try to greater volumes of air to compress rather than compress atomsphere.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:04 PM
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Joe
I love the long answers.
After doing a few Cummins schools in the early 80's and seeing what they did with turbos and nice manifolding on inline 6 's
I always understood on things like 3500 cats and 1150 cummins and Boudwins( thats not spelt right) why the turbo ( s) were in the middle of the vee
I am amazed and more so now that most modern engines have the turbo's packages down one end..Seatek included.
I cant believe that can be very efficent when trying to get that 2:1 ratio down towards 1:1?

I remember years ago going to an SAE seminar on automotive SI turbo's, one of the presentations was from the guys developing a BMW 320turbo race car ( to suit the oz rules) and the work they put into the exhaust to get it to work was amazing from slowly rotating the housing just to get the tubing perfect, and storys of sudden loss of low end torque and discovered they had burnt the split housing out

Cheers

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Old 02-12-2010, 12:36 PM
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Different animals, most diesels in trucks , generators etc are 0.5 Hp /cui on the high side. The famous 425 Cat's are over 900 cui.

The Cummins B at 300 hp in a boat was I believe for awhile the most powerful production diesel in the world Hp/cui and that is 359 cui.

Our warrantied AMT/SH 380Hp and 420Hp Cummins based B's were by far the most powerful diesel Hp/cui that you could buy at that time. Our 500hp and the test 600 Hp B's destroyed anyone for Hp/cui for an engine that you could run at WOT for a couple hours!

Look at Seatek 10.3 (626cui) their engines are around 1 Hp/cui and slighly higher. They tell you all the don't run them at WOT no more than X hours for every X hours of operation crap! So when they say 3,000 hours between overhaul, how many hours at WOT and what in there mind is an overhaul and what is maintenace inbetween that. The log works for that Hp range and level of service, it's getting what people on here want which is 1.5 - 2 Hp/cui that it won't work. It doesn't work in Dodge or Ford or Chevy pick-up either, put them on the dyno with their tunner kits and see how many hours they can really run for??????? I love these power pulls they all do on the dyno, they are useless and serve no purpose at all when preparing something for a marine application especially a performance application.

Not that I'm not blunt on here but all these things I've talked about about added up are the reasons that diesels have not progressed where the performance crowd wants them to be. The engineering to make the hot rod diesels exists, the tooling is expensive, the R&D is expensive and no one can see a return.

Jim Shipp, one time head of Cummins Marine said to me, "what you do hurts the image of Cummins Engine company, when you blow an engine it looks bad across all our product lines as Cummins has a reputation of being the leader in quality and dependable diesel engines". The Big Boys really don't want or need to play in this market.

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Old 02-12-2010, 02:22 PM
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Jo
So would you say on a turbo engine the exhaust manifold design and location of the turbo is more important than if it were optimised for the pressure side/ induction/aftercooler etc.
I'm not talking pressure ratio's here just the basic plumbing design.
Which is more important the exhaust valve to turbo or the turbo to inlet valve plumbing?
Cheers

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Old 02-12-2010, 02:39 PM
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I'm confused on your question, I don't get "optimized for the inlet"
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Old 02-14-2010, 03:23 PM
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Jo
So would you say on a turbo engine the exhaust manifold design and location of the turbo is more important than if it were optimised for the pressure side/ induction/aftercooler etc.

Which is more important the exhaust valve to turbo or the turbo to inlet valve plumbing?

Cheers
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Old 02-14-2010, 06:22 PM
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This is another long answer because it is more complex than it seems.

The most important in any turbo charged performance engine is turbo to intake valve. Several reasons:
-air under high pressure reacts different that air in a vacum when going through all the piping and ports.
-every constriction in the intake increases pressure, more pressure the harder the turbo has to work
-the more pressure the more heat is generated, understand air at 50psi is not like that baby pressure they run on the gas engines with blowers and use those tiny intercoolers or aftercoolers as they refer to them
-all that extra heat means you ahve a bigger Delta T to overcome to get to where you want to be - bigger aftercoolers, more water has to flow through them etc, etc

On a high pressure turbo engine you will see without doubt the less restriction you have the engine will develope LESS boost which is what you want, that means you have more CFM's of air flowing. The less boost the less aftercooling becuase you decrease your Delta T.

All this is pretty basic so far, people sometimes don't look at the basics of what going on - just trying to pump air nothing less same principles apply to any air application.

Exhaust is no different, better flow less pressure before the turbine wheel, simple, use long as possible individual runners, smooth transitions into the turbo base. In a marine application there are some inherent problems and that is heat loss due to water jackets. The log works well in most apps as it also keeps the air temp elevated, the hotter the air the faster it expands the most push through the turbo - again basics properties of air. Name any modified marine diesel out there merlin, daytona, sabre, peninsula, etc, etc, all the same problems and most are on the exhaust side and are cauased by everything I've described so far in these few rants of mine.

You know Boyle's law pressure and volume are inversely proportional so twice the pressure is half the flow.

Bottomline and this is why I refer to Jim Fueling having had the chance to meet him and talk shop with him years ago. Jim proved lower boost, more CFM makes for a higher Hp engine with longer life. His work in airflow principles and how to apply them was among the best and all his turbo projects focused on intake and exhaust and how to reduce pressure which increases flow and those improvements show up faster in high pressures than in vacums or low pressure applications

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Old 02-15-2010, 12:27 AM
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I took this pic at PRI.

pat W
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:53 AM
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thanks
I assume thats the subject of the thread.
Does it really do 5000rpm?
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:33 AM
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How about dimensions wise. Isn't the V8 going to be shorter than a Straight 6? Would be helpful for some applications. Anyone know the dimensions? Where is that picture from?
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