Banks Sequential Super Turbo Marine diesel engine
02-11-2010, 11:32 AM
#21
Registered
Joe:
You've hit the nail on the head! Everybody likes and needs to experiment and develop new product and designs, but as you know getting the final animal on the shelf, tried and true with costing and sell pricing that a moderatetly large group of performance boaters can invest in is the ultimate challange!
I just watched Mercury Racings unveiling of their new 1300HP twin tourbocharged Marine racing engine with its new transmission and #8 drive - WOW! its quite an accomplishment and it just points out two things here.
1. Unless you've got millions of dollars of development money like Mercury, a staff of engineers and incredible manufacturing and testing facilities you not even going to make a BUMP at the process!
2. Unless the performance boating boat or engine & drive buyer has got to have deep pockets or their not even going to be able to make the purchase at todays costs!
Raylar as a small business marine performance engine innovater would like nothing else than to develop a new high powered small package diesel marine engine with neccessary transmission and drive, but I am also a realist.
Unless we could start with a readily available diesel engine package ( The Duramax is NOT!) and then mate even an existing drive and transmission to it, set up complete marinization and total engine/drive package engineering, manufacturing, testing and distribution system, several million dollars of investment, it would never see the light of day as a economically viable undertaking!
When one considers what the final product would cost the boater and how many could be sold just to start to recoup investment, one would quickly see that an investment of these type of dollars would earn more in a bank savings account at todays lousy 1/2% to 1% interest rates!
This is why I believe it maybe a few years, if ever, especially not until our US economy seriously improves that you will see anybody in the marine diesel engine business develop and market such a package successfully to the performance boating main stream market! Joe Boater!
Some people will say why can Mercury Racing develop this new 1300HP QCV4 engine and drive package?
Three good reasons:
1. They got the big money, the system, and the capabilities to develop, manufacture and market such a product from start to finish on a clean sheet of paper.
2. Mercury knew they would have to totally control from start to finish manufacture of the product , control its complexities, eliminate availability issues and market the product without relying on a base engine manufacturer like lets say GM or such to provide them with a base engine platform!
3. Mercury Racing can price this package in the statosphere where it will have to be to cover its costs and hope and gamble that the very small racing and extreme performance boat market like Skater, MTI, Outerlimits, ETC. and their very small numbers of buyers and users can give them a return on the investment. This is even taking into account that Mercury (Brunswick) knows that operating Mercury Racing is a bigger marketing tool than it is a profit center and the assistance it gives its other marine engine sales business helps cost justify the investment!
As for Diesels alone, why does everyone think Cat got out of the marine and truck diesel market. With the new emissions and sound requirements, they knew they could not make a profit building diesels for anything but the earthmoving market, so they bailed!
I hate to rain on everybodies hopes, thats not my intent! I am really a positive optomistic businessman, HELL if I wasn't why the Hell would I be doing the things that Raylar does! I am also just a guy who know the numbers and the market and believe me if I thought this type of market was going to be hot, I would borrow, finagle or steal the money it would take to make it happen! I hope and wish someone like Gale Banks could finish and sell this type of product to the general marine performance market, it would be a nice addtion if and when it becomes economically feasible!
I'll get off my soapbox now and go back into my little lab and see what Raylar can whip up for the masses!!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
You've hit the nail on the head! Everybody likes and needs to experiment and develop new product and designs, but as you know getting the final animal on the shelf, tried and true with costing and sell pricing that a moderatetly large group of performance boaters can invest in is the ultimate challange!
I just watched Mercury Racings unveiling of their new 1300HP twin tourbocharged Marine racing engine with its new transmission and #8 drive - WOW! its quite an accomplishment and it just points out two things here.
1. Unless you've got millions of dollars of development money like Mercury, a staff of engineers and incredible manufacturing and testing facilities you not even going to make a BUMP at the process!
2. Unless the performance boating boat or engine & drive buyer has got to have deep pockets or their not even going to be able to make the purchase at todays costs!
Raylar as a small business marine performance engine innovater would like nothing else than to develop a new high powered small package diesel marine engine with neccessary transmission and drive, but I am also a realist.
Unless we could start with a readily available diesel engine package ( The Duramax is NOT!) and then mate even an existing drive and transmission to it, set up complete marinization and total engine/drive package engineering, manufacturing, testing and distribution system, several million dollars of investment, it would never see the light of day as a economically viable undertaking!
When one considers what the final product would cost the boater and how many could be sold just to start to recoup investment, one would quickly see that an investment of these type of dollars would earn more in a bank savings account at todays lousy 1/2% to 1% interest rates!
This is why I believe it maybe a few years, if ever, especially not until our US economy seriously improves that you will see anybody in the marine diesel engine business develop and market such a package successfully to the performance boating main stream market! Joe Boater!
Some people will say why can Mercury Racing develop this new 1300HP QCV4 engine and drive package?
Three good reasons:
1. They got the big money, the system, and the capabilities to develop, manufacture and market such a product from start to finish on a clean sheet of paper.
2. Mercury knew they would have to totally control from start to finish manufacture of the product , control its complexities, eliminate availability issues and market the product without relying on a base engine manufacturer like lets say GM or such to provide them with a base engine platform!
3. Mercury Racing can price this package in the statosphere where it will have to be to cover its costs and hope and gamble that the very small racing and extreme performance boat market like Skater, MTI, Outerlimits, ETC. and their very small numbers of buyers and users can give them a return on the investment. This is even taking into account that Mercury (Brunswick) knows that operating Mercury Racing is a bigger marketing tool than it is a profit center and the assistance it gives its other marine engine sales business helps cost justify the investment!
As for Diesels alone, why does everyone think Cat got out of the marine and truck diesel market. With the new emissions and sound requirements, they knew they could not make a profit building diesels for anything but the earthmoving market, so they bailed!
I hate to rain on everybodies hopes, thats not my intent! I am really a positive optomistic businessman, HELL if I wasn't why the Hell would I be doing the things that Raylar does! I am also just a guy who know the numbers and the market and believe me if I thought this type of market was going to be hot, I would borrow, finagle or steal the money it would take to make it happen! I hope and wish someone like Gale Banks could finish and sell this type of product to the general marine performance market, it would be a nice addtion if and when it becomes economically feasible!
I'll get off my soapbox now and go back into my little lab and see what Raylar can whip up for the masses!!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
what's your thought's on this idea .
of course there is that price tag . but maybe wiesman can team up with cumins or merc to make the price come down some becuase then they will build a lot more of them .
mike
02-11-2010, 11:52 AM
#22
Registered
That is what I have been wondering, why not use a multi speed behind an existing motor?
Here, someone do it to this boat and I'll test it, I have time on my hands.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifi...o25595-en.html
Here, someone do it to this boat and I'll test it, I have time on my hands.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifi...o25595-en.html
02-11-2010, 12:11 PM
#23
www.weismann.net
Gold Member
[QUOTE=HabanaJoe;3044112]Pat W you have the trans already to work with current diesels, they've proven themselves with the Seateks with the race boats. Why do you think they are not as popular as they could be - I think you have a great concpet, product, track record, etc.
Why do we not hear of boats running around with them more at least for diesels?
Joe,
Ten years ago now we won our second World Championship in a row with our 4 speed diesel box. Why you do not see them around now is because it is not a simple thing to do. Most people want to take an automotive trans and stuff it in a boat and call it good. Not the same thing and not really possible. It will work but it is not right. Ask Merc with the blacktrack.
We make all the parts in house for our transmissions. Nothing is produced with any numbers that we can buy cheap like pistons for example.
Computers are what we use to shift and we now have that price under control. For a while each ecu we used was $50,000 (williams F1)
We are talking flat out performance also i.e. racing. Pleasure boats can get away with not having a trans now so what is the reason to have one.
The reason is emissions. It will come into play soon. Performance as well, time to plane, correct ratio for a given sea state, increased load (towing, more beer or passengers) fuel economy.
We are priced competative with Merc with our drives even though our drives take more torque and are more efficient (actual dry-sump).
Our intentions is to go away from the brute force and ignorance approach to boating that seems to be happening these days and focus on power to weight/emissions/economy.
pat W
Why do we not hear of boats running around with them more at least for diesels?
Joe,
Ten years ago now we won our second World Championship in a row with our 4 speed diesel box. Why you do not see them around now is because it is not a simple thing to do. Most people want to take an automotive trans and stuff it in a boat and call it good. Not the same thing and not really possible. It will work but it is not right. Ask Merc with the blacktrack.
We make all the parts in house for our transmissions. Nothing is produced with any numbers that we can buy cheap like pistons for example.
Computers are what we use to shift and we now have that price under control. For a while each ecu we used was $50,000 (williams F1)
We are talking flat out performance also i.e. racing. Pleasure boats can get away with not having a trans now so what is the reason to have one.
The reason is emissions. It will come into play soon. Performance as well, time to plane, correct ratio for a given sea state, increased load (towing, more beer or passengers) fuel economy.
We are priced competative with Merc with our drives even though our drives take more torque and are more efficient (actual dry-sump).
Our intentions is to go away from the brute force and ignorance approach to boating that seems to be happening these days and focus on power to weight/emissions/economy.
pat W
02-11-2010, 01:58 PM
#25
Banned
Thread Starter
question , could you take the cumins 480 hp and use the wiesman drive and tranny and still get some good speed out of a boat ? i think i read somewere that he make's up to a 6 speed . so if you put 480 hp infront of 6 gear's i would think it should work well , " maybe still not enough hp " ? i dont know . atleast that way you would get a relable motor that will last 1000's of hour's and still be able to go fast , maybe not 120 + but i think you could gear it to hit over a 100mph . i think the 43 eliminator with twinn 480's top speed was around 75 mpg with one gear so if you add another 4,5,or 6 gears i would think you could get that boat well over the 100 mark ,
what's your thought's on this idea .
of course there is that price tag . but maybe wiesman can team up with cumins or merc to make the price come down some becuase then they will build a lot more of them .
mike
what's your thought's on this idea .
of course there is that price tag . but maybe wiesman can team up with cumins or merc to make the price come down some becuase then they will build a lot more of them .
mike
02-11-2010, 02:15 PM
#26
Gold Member
Gold Member
Not only but with the purchase of Perkins and MAK in Germany they probably have the largest range of marine diesels in the world
They did drop several engines as they didnt bother to make them tier II compliant such as the 3408 that was used in trucks.
They did drop several engines as they didnt bother to make them tier II compliant such as the 3408 that was used in trucks.
02-11-2010, 02:20 PM
#27
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG...
on the 480hp Cummins with 4 or 6 speed vs 1 on the 43 Eliminator or even take my 43 Nortech with the 480 Yanmar.. The end out speed will be the same..75mph... it's just how fast you get there with the multi-speed tranny.. so much easier getting on plane as well as acceleration...
02-11-2010, 06:13 PM
#29
Registered
Pat W - I'm betting your right, I hope it plays out that way, it is the smarter bet!
powerabout - when you use multispeeds and Pat can back me up here you are doing it to spin the prop faster, so you will use smaller dia props no different than little props we ran on Gancia or Ebel. So, when your in the lower gears there is not that much force on the drives as the props are smaller dia (very ineffecient lots of slip) because of the higher speeds they will turn in top gear. Remember the smaller the dia to get the same thrust you have to spin the prop faster hence an outboard is not very effiecent at lower rpms because of prop slip.
Jass - I will tell you, you are wrong. With the multispeeds you will run a higher gear ratio and a smaller dia prop, you will go faster. You don't have enough low rpm hp to get the boat on plane with the taller gears, the multispeed will allow you to do, but the reason for them is for top end, higher prop speed and not so much drag style acceleration from a dead stop as much as out of a corner. That 75 mph number is your limit due to prop speed and nothing else. Take the max rpm's of your gas boat divide by the gear ratio and you have prop speed. You will see it is higher than your diesel prop speed, you can not totally compensate for prop speed with more dia and/or pitch. If you double the Hp
mikebrls - I'll answer it this way. How many gas Hp does it take to move that boat at 100 mph? It will take about the same diesel Hp to do the same thing. I believe, again my real word testing data 5 days a week with unlimited budget and comparing that to unlimited dyno time with the same engine that with a 1:1 gear it is almost impossible to get the engine to develope 100% horsepower in the boat without a trans like Pat W makes or you need like we ran very samll props because of the taller gears and you need to vent the hell out of the prop to get on plane, even then we saw there was always same Hp left as we still bumped the governors too much, I felt.
powerabout - when you use multispeeds and Pat can back me up here you are doing it to spin the prop faster, so you will use smaller dia props no different than little props we ran on Gancia or Ebel. So, when your in the lower gears there is not that much force on the drives as the props are smaller dia (very ineffecient lots of slip) because of the higher speeds they will turn in top gear. Remember the smaller the dia to get the same thrust you have to spin the prop faster hence an outboard is not very effiecent at lower rpms because of prop slip.
Jass - I will tell you, you are wrong. With the multispeeds you will run a higher gear ratio and a smaller dia prop, you will go faster. You don't have enough low rpm hp to get the boat on plane with the taller gears, the multispeed will allow you to do, but the reason for them is for top end, higher prop speed and not so much drag style acceleration from a dead stop as much as out of a corner. That 75 mph number is your limit due to prop speed and nothing else. Take the max rpm's of your gas boat divide by the gear ratio and you have prop speed. You will see it is higher than your diesel prop speed, you can not totally compensate for prop speed with more dia and/or pitch. If you double the Hp
mikebrls - I'll answer it this way. How many gas Hp does it take to move that boat at 100 mph? It will take about the same diesel Hp to do the same thing. I believe, again my real word testing data 5 days a week with unlimited budget and comparing that to unlimited dyno time with the same engine that with a 1:1 gear it is almost impossible to get the engine to develope 100% horsepower in the boat without a trans like Pat W makes or you need like we ran very samll props because of the taller gears and you need to vent the hell out of the prop to get on plane, even then we saw there was always same Hp left as we still bumped the governors too much, I felt.
02-11-2010, 06:44 PM
#30
Registered
I'm sure you guys looked at the pics of the Merc turbo engine on the other thread of it at the show. Did you notice the exhaust manifolds - appear not to be a true log but split with 2 runners per side going up to the turbo and not adjacent cylinders?? It was what I talked about earlier in this thread, these little things are what separates the men from the boys. That is why when I look at the Banks projects I see nothing but racing engines and not true engineering to make a better engine just a more powerful one to get good PR with as are most of their high profile projects.
Don't get me wrong they do very good at it and prove some incrediable things, but they are not Merc or Pat W those guys are blank sheet build something that does not exist and do it better.
When you see what that Merc engine is you have to say, why build a modified old diesel when you can buy that? Merc builds 4 stroke supercharged outboards from nothing, if there was really a market for Hot Rod diesels like Banks is pushing don't you think Merc could have done it instead of this engine? After all Merc is about making money, not just PR they have a board to answer to.
You have to agree this engine is so limited in sales that it is scary, for Merc not to do a diesel that you can get fuel for on a global scale the demand / market must be nothing!!!
Hats off to Merc!!!
again - Pat is on the right path, apply what is available better!
Don't get me wrong they do very good at it and prove some incrediable things, but they are not Merc or Pat W those guys are blank sheet build something that does not exist and do it better.
When you see what that Merc engine is you have to say, why build a modified old diesel when you can buy that? Merc builds 4 stroke supercharged outboards from nothing, if there was really a market for Hot Rod diesels like Banks is pushing don't you think Merc could have done it instead of this engine? After all Merc is about making money, not just PR they have a board to answer to.
You have to agree this engine is so limited in sales that it is scary, for Merc not to do a diesel that you can get fuel for on a global scale the demand / market must be nothing!!!
Hats off to Merc!!!
again - Pat is on the right path, apply what is available better!
Last edited by HabanaJoe; 02-11-2010 at 07:05 PM.
