Technical Questions For Steve 1
 

Steve

Have been following your thread on here and wanted to ask you for your insight about something specific.

We constantly hear about the wavecrusher APACHE and its rep as the king of rough water.
Would like to hear your thoughts on why that is, why other than bulk weight and length made the Apache so famous on a technical basis.
Was its basic construction so much different than any other boat??

Good question.

RUTRO, you said APACHE :)

I suspect the way they were built, similar to a Powerplay is the reason the boat performed so well. You can do some searching on the Powerplay 38 when OSO Steve bought the black 38 and took it out in 6 ftr's+ trying to break the flat screen TV off the wall......it didn't break no matter how hard they beat the boat! Keep in mind this was a 4 year old boat with 400+ hours on it and 10,000 miles logged on the GPS!

I believe Cashbar and Dollabill were on that ride.....

The Hull !! a little about that first,with it's bow flair and the "rate" of convergence to 24 degrees at the transom (Cigarette genes from the old 35) , It changed like a degree a foot on the first 8 feet of entry along the stem knee which is fairly abrupt , Now with that said it needs a little forward mass for running in the rough because wherever that goes the boat follows.

In the late 70's we did a boat for Billy (Longshot) a Light Kevlar 39 Cigarette and testing in 6 footers and better we needed a lot of tab and eventually broke up the boat a little but that was the way the Boss wanted to run it that day(Knocked the bulkheads loose)

Ok what happened ? when Billy gave the boat a lot of plate the Huge Tabs and the staggered motors were saying we go straight but the bow said we are going up over this mess (This was a light Boat built for Mr "K" ,,,Food Time to be continued.

To Continue: Like I was saying about the bow convergence and flair ,to make a long story short both the Bow and Stern won the Bulkheads said we are out of here and when I saw the kink in the rub rail that was a sign to take it home.

The Apaches (big Cigarette) had the right balance of forward Mass (you can't change the shape) and a well done internal structure to keep the boat in one piece (Stinson has a ton of pictures) and built with a resin that does not exist today in it's original form Atlac 580 05A a Urethane Acrylic Vinyl ester, real tough stuff and a lot of Kevlar, Pedro and His Dad worked for Ben Kramer in Lamination before coming to work for Danny at Powerplay. Nowadays of course we have programs that go 6+ places past the decimal point but the old guys knew what was needed.

I see you are going to continue, great.

Let me ask another question in the meantime.

What V bottom, built as a production boat in 2010, most closely resembles that quality of wavecrushing as did the Apache?

If there isnt one, why not?

Would todays customer even want a boat with all that power thrown at it to go the speeds that resulted ?

Thanx pal

so basically it was the right balance of materials/design/CG/talent/all that stuff. I am guessing that was all done from experience rather then on a computer to, no CnC plug either :D

To tell the truth i had no idea how well they ran and rode till i copped a ride on one last year at the Cambridge poker run/race. Amazing . . . .

Sir that would be the New Pantera 41 for one which has the old school Apache with modern computer corrected lines.

Alec i think most buyers these days are brainwashed into thinking some ultimate speed number in flat water is the most important thing, then again in defense of that most dont venture into the ruff stuff anyway. Any comparable boats these days are built in small numbers by companies like Saber generally dont get a lot of press (or as much). Personally I'll take a heavy slower boat any day over some potato chip.


oooo yea . . . good one Steve forgot about that bad boy from Pantera :cool:

Dave the old Cigarettes ran great also even the old 6000# 36' race boat hulls before rigging. Shape and Mass.

Again a heavy design built light will work with a ballast tank for snotty conditions, if not !! you are at the mercy and talent of the builder.

OK

I hear ya Dave re the speed thing, and I agree.

Lets talk $$$ and cents for a sec.

Do these things get any PREMIUM on sale, because of the rep and the history or because everyone wants to go faster in smooth water with less HP it all washes out ?


GGGEEEZZ something just sparked here.

Lorne Libel started a cement company up here in Canada a few years back.
Apache Cement. Now I got it.

Do they know where Hoffa is? :eek::drink:







Performance boat buying habits are far different these days then when the 'ol wave crushers roamed the earth :D

Re incarnations like the 42 Saber are great boats without any doubt but would never pace something like a 42 Fountain in sales or any of the higher production hulls. Tell ya the truth if i had the means i would own Jassmans diesel 43 Nortech above all others, that boat is way cool and perfect for me. Noretch still builds boats on the wet heavy side and probably the closest thing these days to how the Apache's were built (this is meant as a compliment to you Nor Techies :D)

With all the hype re Apache over the years, performance etc.,

why havent the ventures smilarly named and using Apache molds and design, been successful ??
Are they regarded as KIT CARS, similar but not the real thing ??
No history, knockoffs etc ???

How is the Hustler layed up? In all talks of great boats they are never mentioned??

They have a good reputation and are cored from what I have seen.

Steve you are a wealth of knowledge - you should be writing a book or teaching.... I can see it now "boat building 101"

Steve 1, were the smaller apaches built with the same materials as the bigger ones? Obviously they weren't built the same as the ones with carbon fiber and kevlar, but what about the resin buckets?

They are a very niche boat, working best in conditions where many decide to stay on the dock. They take big power and upkeep to run. Most would settle for a boat that handles big water decent, but not great and go faster in small water with less power and expense. They do take a while to sell, but the resale on the apaches is good. Think of it as traveling in the winter, most are happy with all season radials (bayliners) a step up is snow tires... next you get 4wd and maybe chains (cigs beaks etc) when the blizzard hits, your stuck in the living room unless you have a snow cat........ Do many people desire snow cats?? no.... are there a few who do??? Are there those who dont think about snow cats or wonder whats so great about them when they get caught in a blizzard and they are stuck in their car in a ditch under a 6 foot snowdrift?? a few....

Alec is going to ride on an Apaches Lil cousin (My old Cig) next week in a Poker Run on the Chesapeake. He'll understand then. ;):drink:

From what I remember....Ole GlassDave was a hurtin pup that day!!!!:eek::drink:

Hi Speedy. I am thinking of doing some in depth classes on my moldless style of building and systems for the small shop guys.

Alec Sorry I was out for a second. Because The guys who went around and got a splashed mold somewhere then tried to compete with Apache in their own arena and forget that.

Now Thad was bringing something different into the game and was going to try with a 2003 Model , Example the deck one can see the old flat deck in there somewhere BUT like the old and new Thunderbirds and a modern building system ,Rigging and right down the line with a guarantee he would have a mechanic on the boat that day if a problem arose from a defective gauge or the like.

No the 36 and down were built different, Resin bucket LOL I heard that before, one has to see a bagged laminate to understand or carry the disposables from the bagging to the dumpster this is what gets left on shore .

My liver has just now started to forgive me for that one :drink:

Liver care !!!!!!!!!! LOL sounds like another class that can be added.

LOMA . . . . should be a pre requisite :drink:

LOL that and keeping all 10 fingers around high speed tools.

Dave I cut this one in Half and re glassed it ,this was a pace boat in one of my videos.then the Saudis took the thing and tested it for a while.




http://i50.tinypic.com/315bn0k.jpg

looks like an ambitious project. :D


Ya know no matter how bad a boat if smashed, crashed and generally F'ed up people always ask me . . . . . . can it be fixed? . . . . of course it can . . . . it can always be fixed, its only fiberglass :D

Steve

If a 41 Apache was duplicated inch by inch where the same structural strength was obtained , by using todays modern fabrication methods and materials what would the weight difference be?

About a Third example the T-4 I was building was projected at 2400 ready for nuts and bolts.

Is my question an example of what is now happening at Pantera.??

That is the beauty of the material ,the repair is stronger .

The Kuwaiti's brought a guys boat, a huge ugly thing that ate a concrete seawall somewhere destroying the stem and smashing everything back into the saloon we cut the damage away and cleaned it up and ground the edges into a nice 24:1 Scarf,
I took my carpenters and built a mica faced mold on the outside I made some changes in the profile for the better and the molders have at it.

Bear in mind I dormed my crew on site so, I would get the night shift going and when I came in the next morning it was like the Elves had worked all night..

Took a week and we were Microning the bottom and spraying the new sides done.Inside and out.

Steve what do you think of the 36 Pantera T/S.Primarily how it will be in fairly rough water.

Sir they have a weight Break that has to be followed in that class I think 10,400 Pounds, and that boat would run just fine at that weight.

The film shows a nice running boat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qsn-Kw6S_A

Neat stuff here you can see the bow flair coming into play, Pantera did a nice job on the boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehklDnTS_Bs&NR=1

Alec we had a ballast system worked out and the bow tank, Full was warpath mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmHJryiJOCk

Love this one never really thought about Pantera but after the thread about the 41 started going into there site.I like what I see.