Need HELP with gelcoat.
 

I'm going to help a buddy of mine this weekend to clean and prep his boat. The boat is only 3-4 years old and is in really excellent shape except for the gelcoat. It looks like someone used either a Scotch Brite pad when cleaning the boat, or used too much pressure with a buffer as there are small scratches and swirl marks on the deck and hullsides.

I had a similar problem with my finish after someone local did a poor job detailing and I had to use a lot of elbow grease to polish it up. However, this guy's boat is much worse. It doesn't look like he needs to add gel, but it sure needs some serious attention. I know that some of you are very knowledgeable in this area.

My friend is working with a limited budget and has no experience working with gelcoat. He has not done any wet-sanding or any other paint work. So, where do we start? What products would you recommend? Should he buy a buffer? Should he start with wet-sanding or should he just wash the boat and then use differing levels of polish and finish with wax? What brands do you recommend?

Finally, what specific tips can you guys recommend to get the best results? I'll be helping him, but I have had limited experience in this area as well. So, any tips will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Hey Miller, long time no speak...

What color is the boat?? It sounds like it might be a dark color and I had a black Shadow Cat which was a real pain to keep looking good.

As far as wet sanding, that should be a last resort and I would only recommend it if there was alot of oxidation and deep scratches. Either way, this is not for the faint of heart as you can EASILY go right through the gelcoat.

On the buffing side of things, I use a buffer and 3M products for compounding. I forget the exact part number of the rubbing compound but it is tan in color and works well on minor scratches and oxidation. Compounding a boat with a machine is also not an easy task and coarse compunds can also eat up the gel.

My suggestion would be to go to an auto body supply shop and get some 3M compound and a good paste wax(I use Safety Klean wax which is also applied with a buffer--stuff will last forever...) Tell them exactly what you are doing and they should be able to recommend the right compound.

Or...you could pay someone 18/ft to detail it and sit on a lawnchair drinking Coronas----oh, I forgot, Dave drinks the Coronas...you can stick to the club soda...:D :D

Good luck with it.

Thanks for the response Sean. Congrats on selling your boat.

My friend's boat is white in color and you can really only see the scratches when looking from an angle in the sun. At the right angle, or when up close, you can see the scratches. There is no oxidation, but the scratches are pretty fine and somewhat deep, but I don't think they go all the way through the gell so I think he can buff them out. But, it will take a lot work.

I don't think that he wants to spend the 18ft to have someone do the detail work, as he is trying to save some money for a new house and his significant other would kill him if he spends too much on the boat.

In that case, a light compound shoudl do the trick, but most gelcoat boats will show swirls and light scratches in the right lighting conditions no matter how well they are detailed. They are no nearly as perfect or shiny has a boat painted with graphics and then clearcoated. Just a thought.

I have a black boat with with blues silvers and greys. It is a ***** to maintain. I did wetsand and buff my boat last year and it turned out fantastic.

Here is my opinion. For sure obtain a rotary buffer with a few NEW pads. Purchase a heavy duty rubbing compound formulated for gel coat(I can not remember if I used 3M or Meguires...I will check).
Begin first in an inconspicuous area that has the scratches. Apply the compound to the pad, lightly press the pad against the boat and begin buffing first moving the buffer to spread the compound then continously moving the buffer at a medium rate until the shine has come through and the compound is gone. STAY AWAY FROM EDGES IN THE HULL. ALWAYS START THE BUFFER WITH PAD AGAINST THE BOAT.

After you have done this small area check to see if the scratches are still visible. If yes I would LIGHTLY wet sand with 1000 grit and repeat the buffing process. Use water mixed with dish detergent when wetsanding.

Depending on how how deep the original sratches are you may have to start at 600 grit and then to 1000 grit then buff.

After you are happy with results of the buffing, follow up with a micro polish(using orbital buffer)to remove any swirls caused from buffing.
Finish up with a good wax.

It is ALOT of work but the results are well worth it.

Good luck
Paul

Good advice paul...definetly be careful on the edges, they'll burn through before you can say "Oh $hit!!"

Sean, I used to work at a body shop in college for beer money. :D Burning a corner is not difficult.

Congrats on selling the boat. It sure was a nice machine.I showed my wife your boat many times...but she just would not go for it.

Miller, if you do have to get near a corner lift the pad so it just barely nicks the edge and let the compound do the work. You can also do the tight corner areas by hand(my preference just to be safe).

Paul

Can you guys recommend a good buffer/polisher and what brand of pads (cotton vs. foam, etc.) he should buy and who might have a good price on the net? Also, anyone have pictures of what the process looks like in various stages so we can compare as we're working on his boat to make certain that it is coming out correctly?

Thanks.

My buffer is made by Hitachi and and is about 8 years old. it is not variable speed(it is 2 speed) and does the job well(I used to do alot of detailing as a side business). I paid 170 bucks for it back then and have never had a problem with it.

I have heard Makita makes a good one, and I would advise going with a variable speed model.

Get the wheel with the velcro material and you can switch back an forth between the cotton/wool pads for compound and the foam pads for glaze and/or wax.

I don't know what to tell you about the stages...it's one of those things where you kinda know when it's done properly...you'll have to feel your way through it.

I do it like paul by testing a small area with compound AND wax to see what the final result will be before going any further.

Hope this rambling helps

I picked up a high-speed buffer from The Pep Boys for about $70. I used the blue foam pads with the liquid 3M compound. I only use it on the deck because the sides have kept their original gloss. My do-it-yourself job looks a hellava lot better than any of the $500 detail jobs I've paid for. Don't confuse the buffer with an orbital. The orbital is used for applying wax, makes waxing the boat a breeze.

That's what I do.

Is this what you guys are recommend for a polisher/buffer? My friend just emailed me this link as he is thinking about buying this unit. Can anyone comment?

Thanks again.

http://www.sears.com/sr/product/deta...o=YES&bidsite=

Miller, You can use 3M finesse-it compound to take the scratches out start off with a heavy compound then move up to a lighter one then when whole boat is compouned go over it with 3M finesse-it II glazing polish, do this and it will beat all the wet sanding. the only drawback is you have to have a buffing wheel. Each bottle of 3M is about $10 dollars.

Here's your buffer:

http://makita.com/tools_Item_View.asp?id=257

Ditto on the 3M Finesse it II for the final polish. Finish it off with a good wax. Stay real fine on the wet sand paper (800-1200) and you should be ok with it. Anything more aggressive and it might get you in trouble.

Use the Meguires #W-8000 pad for the Finesse it II

Thanks for all the responses. I'm a little confused though. What is the difference between an orbital buffer and a high-speed buffer?

Also, when I looked on HomeDepot.com and Lowes.com I could not locate any high-speed buffers? Are they referred to with a different name like sander or something? Where did you guys all buy yours and what model numbers by which manufacturer did you get? That information might make life a bit easier.

How do you know that you're using too much pressure or not enough?

What is a buffing wheel and where do you get one? How would you use the buffing wheel?

Thanks again.

I think this is the game plan:

-wash his boat with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze/RV Gel Wash
-use Meguiar's diamond cut rubbing compound with the high-speed buffer on fast and a new cloth buffing pad
-follow with 3M's Finesse-It with a new cloth buffing pad
-follow with 3M's Perfect-It with a new foam buffing pad
-finish with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze Boat Pure Wax

or (this was recommend to him by Meguiar's):
-wash his boat with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze/RV Gel Wash
-follow with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze Havy Duty Oxidation Remover, applied by hand
-follow with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze Boat Polish applied with the high speed buffer on fast with a cloth buffing pad
-finish with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze Boat Pure Wax


Which would you guys think would get the best results and be the least likely to get screwed up? Also, do you think that he should or should not wet sand? Meguiar's recommended only wet sanding if necessary and to use 2000 grit wet sanding blocks if wet sanding and lots of water mixed with some liquid dish detergent and to use a wet sanding sponge around corners or sharp edges not 600 or 1000 grit as Paul suggested above. Now, I'm thoroughly confused and my friend is getting just as many contradictory answers on his own? So, who can shed some more light on this one?

Miller, read my post above...we must have submitted at the same time. It has the link to Makita.

You will get different opinions on this. All will work, but caution is the best way to proceed. A buddy of mine wet sanded his 97 Nordic (which has a great finish to start with) and acheived a mirror finish with the wet sanding/compound/polish/wax route. The wet sanding gets rid of the orange peel finish (if you look close, most boats have this finish). I'll see if he can post here to give some advise. He's rv from OSO.

Goody76 , When you use the 3M Finnese It II do you use the foam pad or wool?.............Gofast:)

Miller. I've got a PorterCable variable speed #7428. Very nice to use at the mid-speeds for this type of work. I am also using the 3m waffle pads for cutting with the 3M FinesseIt-II. You probably could try a wet (w/soap in a spray bottle) 1500+ or higher, then this to test with.

The real key is dont stop in any area, dont let the machine sit, and dont hold it at too much of an angle or the backing pad will cut. (....and do not load up the paste/material). A little will go quite a long way.......just keep it moist (water mist bottle)

As for OrbitalBuffer vs the right angle type. The Orbital does not move fast enough and will just smear. You just cant get the same final finish with the SO type. (but its nice for wax application though).

good luck........Bob:p

"I am also using the 3m waffle pads for cutting with the 3M FinesseIt-II. You probably could try a wet (w/soap in a spray bottle) 1500+ or higher, then this to test with. "

Huh?

Thanks for all the responses. I think we're going to rent a right angle, high-speed, orbital sander/polisher from Home Depot for the weekend and use the following:


1. wash his boat with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze/RV Gel Wash
2. start with 3M's Imperial Rubbing Compound with a new cloth buffing pad
3. follow with 3M's Finesse-It Finishing Material with a new cloth buffing pad
4. follow with 3M's Perfect-It with a new foam buffing pad
5. finish with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze Boat Pure Wax

What do you guys think of this?

Miller
Buffing generates heat on the surface- that's where the term burn-through comes from. If you stay still on an area, it will get a case of road-rash. No matter what you are buffing with, keep the pad moving back and forth in large sweeping strokes.

A trick to use near edges is to make sure the pad is moving away from the edge and not into it or across. Until you really know how to handle the buffer, it is best to stay well away from the corners altogether, and buff them by hand.

The safest approach is to try lighter compounds on a test area first, then heavier compound if needed. Unless the scratches are real deep, the lighter stuff should work- it will just take more time.

If that does not work, only then should you wet sand then compound. 2000 grit is VERY fine, 1000 is medium, and 600 kind of coarse for sand/polish job.


Good Luck!
Bulldog AKA Ronnie

Miller......Sorry for the confusion.

What I meant was. If you do wetsand, try filling a spraybottle with water and a just little dishsoap. Now, instead of using just water, the soap makes it a little better and the paper wont clog.

After that, try the buffer with the 3M waffle pad (foam with "craters") with the 3mF2 stuff. For that, I carry another bottle with just water to "mist" the 3MF2 if it drys. (just to keep it slightly moist). In either case, you dont put the 3MF2 on the pad (which ever you choose). it goes on the surface. And again, NEVER stop.

The only thing I might mention. The 3MF2 is super fine (cant even feel it), but still WILL cut. When its done it should show a wet gloss look, then put a glaze or wax over it. But, if not you may need to use one of their compounds.

Bob

glass finish
 

Miller,
It all depends on the depth of the scratchs you are refering to. First, determine the type of scratch, is it a swirl scratch or a deeper scratch. The swirl scratchs you can not feel. When you look at them with the correct light they do not have any depth to them. If they truely are swirl scratches do the following:
Clean boat very good.
Polish with buffer running at 1600-1800 rpm.
Polish to use is 3M FineseIt-II, use this with the yellow foam pad from Mequires. This will not cut but polish only.
When complete you will not see any swirl scratchs.

If the scratch is more than a swirl you will need to use the compound and a wool bonnet on your buffer. Run about the same speed. Use the compounds listed by others or try Meguires #49. Follow up with #45, then 3M FineseIt-II.

It the compound does not take out the scratches then you will need to wet sand. Start with 800 then 1200 and or 1500. Then repeat the compound process above.

Rick

Miller,
ONLY use the 600 if the original scratches are to deep to remove with the 1000. You said that it looks like someone went over the hull with a Scotch Brite pad. These pads are a hell of alot more abrasive than 1000 and even 600 for that matter. For example, you cannot remove 80 grit scratches with 320 grit. Not abrasive enough. You would have to go to 120. Then 240 to remove the 120, 320 to remove the 240 and so on. You get the idea. So, depending on how deep the original scratch are depends on what grit you will start with. As stated before, start with the compund first and see how that turns out. Then adjust from that point.

600 does seem kind of course, but the sides of my hull were in rough shape. They actually felt like sand paper when running your hand over them. Now they are like a mirror and smooth. Every piece of literature I read on gel coat repair had a finsh grit prior to buffing of 600. That is how I made my determination on what grit to use.

I WOULD NOT wet sand the corners as Meguires eluded to. Too risky.

The buffer you are going to rent sounds like the wrong type if it is an orbital. It needs to be a rotary. The orbital has a sort of dual motion (like a sanding DA) of spinning and vibrating.It does not build enough rpm to be effective with the rubbing compound. The rotary buffer only spins which will have enough rpm.

I am not an expert, but have experience in this. Some good and some bad, but that is how I learn.

If you want give me a call at the office or on my cell.

office 847/368-5594
cell 773/837-1008 After 10a.m.C.S.T

Paul

Thanks for all the help. I was in Denver all day and just got back to NYC so I just got on now to respond.

I'm going to check over my friend's boat with him before we begin. From what I remember, the deck has scratches that are very fine and which you cannot feel but you can see. He said that he did not notice them until late last season and he did not have a chance to work on the boat before he laid it up for the season. He thinks that they appeared after the boat was detailed and he thinks they look like the cleaning agent was too coarse.

Now, on one or two spots on the hullsides, just below the rubrail, and covering almost the entire area of the waterline, are deeper scratches. These scratches you can feel and see more readily. They were clearly caused by someone using too much abrasion in removing any scum. I know that a guy we have both used locally for cleaning does use the Scotch Brite pads to clean the hull bottom if you want. I kow some people think that using sandpaper or a Scotch Brite pad is a good thing, but someone screwed up it looks like and went up on the hullsides a few inches. Now, my friend is a perfectionist, so he wants everything to be perfect. We'll see what happens.

I think the game plan is to buy or rent (depending on what the selection is for sale) a good, high-speed sander/buffer/polisher and spend some quality time with the boat. I think we'll wash the boat thoroughly and use the heavy oxidation remover as well. Then we'll get to work. The idea is to use some 3MF2 on the deck in a small spot and some more on the hullsides where it is scratched and a third time in a small spot at the water line. From there, we'll determine if the deck needs a stronger compound and what the hullsides and the water line will require. If need be, we'll use the wet-sanding technique for the worst scratches.

No matter what, the entire boat will eventually be gone over with 3MF2, 3MPerfect-It, and some kind of really good wax, so hopefully the whole surface will be even and mirror-like.

Well, thanks for all the help. We did need to wet-sand, but the results were worth it. We didn't finish everything yet, but we did get most of his boat done and the final result was excellent.