Eat your hearts out turbo's!
09-24-2010, 12:37 PM
#161
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I think you're taking the cheerleading a bit too far Rob. No one is bagging on Dusty, or saying whipples are junk. I've put them on customers boats and have them on my own boat, they're awesome. The thread title didn't say "Check out the new whipple project". It took a friendly poke at turbo's, and turbo guys are going to poke back. To be honest that kind of power on race gas, with exotic CNC'd big chief heads and valve train to match is not overly impressive. As Dusty said earlier you can't argue with science.. and the way a turbo or centrifugal engine bulids boost is much easier on engine parts. If you want to focus on the fuel management system or something else, that's cool, but when it comes to HP a turbo will win every time. There must be some reason Merc, Sterling, Chief, etc. are going turbo..
Also, there not all going turbo. There's also a reason why many OEM's are actually going away from turbo. Many have exhausted there efforts to get the low end drive-ability you get from a PD style SC. Where are all those OEM centrifugal applications? In 5-10 years, there will be almost a 50/50 mix of new vehicles using PD sc's vs turbo's.
Heads are also not exotic, there very nice big chief style heads and a reasonable camshaft. I'm just not posting that info. Will the motor make over 2000hp? Yup, sure will, since it only took 15psi and Merc's race setup and others are running over 20psi to get near 2000 HP level.
I've never said turbo's won't make more power, thats never been the argument, but centrifugals, sorry, rather have the turbo's.
Furthermore, how many water cooled housings are out there that can produce 2000hp? How's the low end torque on those?
09-24-2010, 01:15 PM
#163
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Cool stuff, Dustin, as always.
My only question: How long will it live? Obviously, a lot of that depends on the operator. (The are other throttle positions than wide open, right?)
What kind of service intervals are you looking at?
Sorry is that already been asked.
My only question: How long will it live? Obviously, a lot of that depends on the operator. (The are other throttle positions than wide open, right?)
What kind of service intervals are you looking at?
Sorry is that already been asked.
09-24-2010, 01:18 PM
#164
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Great Thread:
A lot of great questions and answers from Whipplecharged.
I also agree the thread title could have focused more on the Whipple product. The results of the engine performance speaks for itself why bring in any mention of turbos.
I had some follow up questions:
1. What is the cost of this engine as it sits? If that is not something you want to discuss how about the cost of the Whipple 4.0l quad w/MOAC complete kit.
2. Have you tried any other types of heads with this set-up?
3. If you have 4.0 litres X 2= 8.0 litres versus a 8.3 litre single unit it seems on the surface that a single unit is still pushing more volume? Can you elaborate on this issue.
4. A lot of questions on longevity (hours) on the service life of this engine have not been answered (err maybe I missed it) can you give us an estiimate. Also what are the tuning challenges if any on this motor?
5. The belts at high RPM on the 8.3 in the ribbed version were not surviving. I run a 8mm belt versus a ribbed belt and run up to 6400RPM and never had an issue. I know of some boaters wherein this was or still is a problem. Is this a solution or rationale for going to a quad rotor set-up. Can you explain?
Thanks for the follow up on a lot of great questions asked and answered most of which have been on point for most of us.
KAP
P.S. I went from a 3.3/205 to a 8.3 and I have been extremely happy with the 8.3 it runs like a swiss watch perfect every time. The 8.3 is so hard to beat IMO.... so I am having a hard time justifying the return to a quad rotor not to mention the cost benefit analysis.
A lot of great questions and answers from Whipplecharged.
I also agree the thread title could have focused more on the Whipple product. The results of the engine performance speaks for itself why bring in any mention of turbos.
I had some follow up questions:
1. What is the cost of this engine as it sits? If that is not something you want to discuss how about the cost of the Whipple 4.0l quad w/MOAC complete kit.
2. Have you tried any other types of heads with this set-up?
3. If you have 4.0 litres X 2= 8.0 litres versus a 8.3 litre single unit it seems on the surface that a single unit is still pushing more volume? Can you elaborate on this issue.
4. A lot of questions on longevity (hours) on the service life of this engine have not been answered (err maybe I missed it) can you give us an estiimate. Also what are the tuning challenges if any on this motor?
5. The belts at high RPM on the 8.3 in the ribbed version were not surviving. I run a 8mm belt versus a ribbed belt and run up to 6400RPM and never had an issue. I know of some boaters wherein this was or still is a problem. Is this a solution or rationale for going to a quad rotor set-up. Can you explain?
Thanks for the follow up on a lot of great questions asked and answered most of which have been on point for most of us.
KAP
P.S. I went from a 3.3/205 to a 8.3 and I have been extremely happy with the 8.3 it runs like a swiss watch perfect every time. The 8.3 is so hard to beat IMO.... so I am having a hard time justifying the return to a quad rotor not to mention the cost benefit analysis.
2. Sorta, a different style big chief but only on pump gas. Running in 3 weeks on Dart 380 Pro 2's.
3. Your correct on the volume, but because of size/weight, the 8.3L is limited in RPM to normally 11,000 where the 4.0's can turn up to 18,000.
4. Don't know engine life yet, it will be run at 11psi for poker runs and therefore I feel confident the valve train will be good for 75hrs of normal boating. Lower end will not have an issue.
5. 16-rib wasn't surviving because of the weight of the weight of the belt and centrifugal forces. 12-rib worked but slipped under accel/decel. We also had some issues with how we made the guards to close to the edge, which caused some issues. Once we got it all figured out, it did work, but we decided it was easier to go with 8mm. Quads are taking less hp to operate at this power level, and are working just fine with 12-rib.
Trust me, I know what you mean about the 8.3 vs quad, but I will not even sell the 4.0L quad for below 1350hp, the 8.3L still works best in this area. We did make a new TB setup for the quad, which will make it easier to work with in the future, but did not run them on this engine. At this power level, they will be worth 50hp if my calculations are correct.
09-24-2010, 01:30 PM
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On screw blowers, one would traditionally measure the output of the blower while spinning the smaller rotor. The whipple 5.0l is rated when spinning the small rotor. If you spin the big rotor on the 5.0l, it is then 8.3l per rev. In essence, they are pretty much the same blower.
09-24-2010, 02:16 PM
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Whipplecharged:
Thank you for your prompt reply. This has been a very informative thread with great questions from everyone and candid to the point answers on your part.
Lastly, given the power output for this motor [which is a bargain in terms of price] what drive will deliver the power to the water. It does you no good to have power if it cannot be transferred to the water without breaking.
Can you comment on this topic? It would definitely complete the entire package for me to know what drive to put on this power plant. As this would be a frequently asked question if not the second question in the equation.
Thanks again, and this is great stuff/useful info.
KAP
Thank you for your prompt reply. This has been a very informative thread with great questions from everyone and candid to the point answers on your part.
Lastly, given the power output for this motor [which is a bargain in terms of price] what drive will deliver the power to the water. It does you no good to have power if it cannot be transferred to the water without breaking.
Can you comment on this topic? It would definitely complete the entire package for me to know what drive to put on this power plant. As this would be a frequently asked question if not the second question in the equation.
Thanks again, and this is great stuff/useful info.
KAP
09-24-2010, 02:17 PM
#169
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I wasn't going to comment on this thread, because the choice of supercharger argument has been done many times on OSO. But I would like to say that the rumors of my disappearance are greatly exaggerated!
Since I'm here, I have to say that the problem is not which supercharger to use to make 1800 HP. The problem is how to keep the engine together at 1500 HP. I was told this years ago by a respected engine builder, but I didn't appreciate the fact until we spent a lot more time and money on the twin blower system. Then the light bulb went on. You just can't keep pushing more and more HP out of the same eight holes. Eventually you run into four major obstacles:
too much valve lift
too much piston speed
too much boost pressure, heat, drive loss etc.
too much cylinder pressure
As a result of this "revelation", we started working on our own engine program. This, of course, turned out to be a huge job and that's why you haven't heard from us for a while.
And although I don't post much anymore, I do enjoy poking my head up once in a whle to see what's happening on OSO.
Thanks,
Tom
Since I'm here, I have to say that the problem is not which supercharger to use to make 1800 HP. The problem is how to keep the engine together at 1500 HP. I was told this years ago by a respected engine builder, but I didn't appreciate the fact until we spent a lot more time and money on the twin blower system. Then the light bulb went on. You just can't keep pushing more and more HP out of the same eight holes. Eventually you run into four major obstacles:
too much valve lift
too much piston speed
too much boost pressure, heat, drive loss etc.
too much cylinder pressure
As a result of this "revelation", we started working on our own engine program. This, of course, turned out to be a huge job and that's why you haven't heard from us for a while.
And although I don't post much anymore, I do enjoy poking my head up once in a whle to see what's happening on OSO.
Thanks,
Tom
Last edited by tomcat; 09-24-2010 at 05:47 PM. Reason: too long
09-24-2010, 03:50 PM
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what would an e-85 tune up do? i am having a small engine built now and my engine builder has convinced me to tune it on e-85....I finally concluded with the extra hp gained that keeping a barrel around was no harder than a barrel of c-16???? great job on the motors
