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Matt Trulio 01-17-2011 06:10 PM

Granet Nails It
 
Nice work, Marc Granet, http://boatermouth.com//index.php?vi...ntent&Itemid=8.

lightning jet 01-17-2011 06:32 PM

Dig it

GLH 01-17-2011 07:13 PM

The offshore race system in Europe might not be perfect either but this is irrelevant relating to racing here in the US.

Now what Marc , Scott and the crew are doing is phenomenal, they can do it in light of a committed sponsor.

However many organizations or individuals with means that would be interested in racing or sponsoring it will not touch the cluster-f, that is offshore racing here in the US. I appreciate the circuits efforts in Europe whether messed up or not, but who cares they are 3500 miles away, any company that does not have worldwide exposure here in the US will not fund efforts to race there.

And to answer Marc, "What have I done to help the situation?" Related to racing... I have no inclination to do anything if you have to deal with people like Carbonell (spelling?). As a businessman I have to spend my time effectively, and offshore racing's commercial viability is so far offshore, pardon the pun that it would make the London to Monte Carlo race of the good old days seem like it's in a bathtub.

Thus no one with means will be interested in funding any racing for any length of time anytime soon here with the complete disarray in all sanctioning bodies. That disarray is what needs to be fixed and again no one with solutions or wherewithal I can think of will expend time on what has been proven again and again as a lost cause. People & Corporations with means will spend their time & resources somewhere else better organized where they can get a better return on their investment.

Until someone can handle the Herculean task of putting stability in the sanctioning bodies here in US offshore racing, I for one will see you at the next Poker Run, whatever happens in Europe.

I love watching racing and God bless the ones committing themselves to it these days they deserve all the praise for their sacrifices, they are doing it truly for the love of the sport because not much marketability is available.

damdonzi 01-17-2011 07:50 PM

Well said GLH.

Matt Trulio 01-17-2011 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by GLH (Post 3299863)
The offshore race system in Europe might not be perfect either but this is irrelevant relating to racing here in the US.

Now what Marc , Scott and the crew are doing is phenomenal, they can do it in light of a committed sponsor.

However many organizations or individuals with means that would be interested in racing or sponsoring it will not touch the cluster-f, that is offshore racing here in the US. I appreciate the circuits efforts in Europe whether messed up or not, but who cares they are 3500 miles away, any company that does not have worldwide exposure here in the US will not fund efforts to race there.

And to answer Marc, "What have I done to help the situation?" Related to racing... I have no inclination to do anything if you have to deal with people like Carbonell (spelling?). As a businessman I have to spend my time effectively, and offshore racing's commercial viability is so far offshore, pardon the pun that it would make the London to Monte Carlo race of the good old days seem like it's in a bathtub.

Thus no one with means will be interested in funding any racing for any length of time anytime soon here with the complete disarray in all sanctioning bodies. That disarray is what needs to be fixed and again no one with solutions or wherewithal I can think of will expend time on what has been proven again and again as a lost cause. People & Corporations with means will spend their time & resources somewhere else better organized where they can get a better return on their investment.

Until someone can handle the Herculean task of putting stability in the sanctioning bodies here in US offshore racing, I for one will see you at the next Poker Run, whatever happens in Europe.

I love watching racing and God bless the ones committing themselves to it these days they deserve all the praise for their sacrifices, they are doing it truly for the love of the sport because not much marketability is available.

All legitimate points, GLH. But the main thrust of Marc's blog was that if you think the European circuits are any better or have it more together you're not just uninformed, you're wrong. The facts just don't support that premise.

In terms of unifying the sport, racers need to vote with their wallets. A few months ago, a well-known was complaining to me about one of the racing organizations. He pretty much tattooed everything from the organization's leadership to its rulebook. And yet when the organization held it's marquee, season-finale event, there he was, boat, crew and all, racing his heart out.

It baffled me at the time. It still baffles me.

skaterdave 01-17-2011 09:54 PM

pontificating is in full force
 
Matt, after reading yours and marc's blogs i can truely see that offshore racing atleast at a level comparable to Class1 is no where in the future for the US.

Matt how can you let such pontificating go un-questioned?

to compare Class 1 or X-cat to anything here in the US is a hard pill to swallow. although C1 appears to have political issues along with a team that continually dominates theres still vast differences that are easliy noticable. this is like comparing Nascar to your local gocart track.

as it pertains to cat type offshore racing, Class 1 and X-cat, no other series seems to have set rules, fairly consistant boat count and steady race sites. also considering that marc has no Class 1 experience nor have they really had competition compared overseas or even compared to other spec classes here. that is unless you count there dominating performance over this past year, where the pretended to race Qatar's 2 boats for the opa "show"/race series. and as for Qatar it seems they would rather put up with Class 1 BS than deal with drama here, since they packed up and are heading back to C1.

lets be honest, the one team that holds the most power for change had the oppurtunity of a lifetime this past year. Qatar brought 2 boats and tried to make some sort of parity in the SuperCat class. Geico had the oppurtunity to actually change one of there 3 raceboats and try to UNITE the several different supercat classes (750, 850, C1, piston extreme). this would have led to others joining the class just for the chance to race Qatar and Geico and along with the TV deal things might have changed for the better and in a relatively short time. but atlast this was not to be, instead it was egos as usaul. and now just more pontificating and finger pointing.

PokerRun388 01-17-2011 09:59 PM

Will we see Miss Gieco at Desert Storm?

Matt Trulio 01-17-2011 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by skaterdave (Post 3300005)
Matt, after reading yours and marc's blogs i can truely see that offshore racing atleast at a level comparable to Class1 is no where in the future for the US.

Matt how can you let such pontificating go un-questioned?

to compare Class 1 or X-cat to anything here in the US is a hard pill to swallow. although C1 appears to have political issues along with a team that continually dominates theres still vast differences that are easliy noticable. this is like comparing Nascar to your local gocart track.

as it pertains to cat type offshore racing, Class 1 and X-cat, no other series seems to have set rules, fairly consistant boat count and steady race sites. also considering that marc has no Class 1 experience nor have they really had competition compared overseas or even compared to other spec classes here. that is unless you count there dominating performance over this past year, where the pretended to race Qatar's 2 boats for the opa "show"/race series. and as for Qatar it seems they would rather put up with Class 1 BS than deal with drama here, since they packed up and are heading back to C1.

lets be honest, the one team that holds the most power for change had the oppurtunity of a lifetime this past year. Qatar brought 2 boats and tried to make some sort of parity in the SuperCat class. Geico had the oppurtunity to actually change one of there 3 raceboats and try to UNITE the several different supercat classes (750, 850, C1, piston extreme). this would have led to others joining the class just for the chance to race Qatar and Geico and along with the TV deal things might have changed for the better and in a relatively short time. but atlast this was not to be, instead it was egos as usaul. and now just more pontificating and finger pointing.

SkaterDave,

You are confusing the technology with the success of the racing circuit when it comes to Class 1. Qatar raced here last year because the team was disenchanted with Class 1. The Steve Curtis quote in my story supports that. Whatever benefit Qatar brought to the states last year was born out of frustration with things overseas.

But don't ask me. Ask Steve Curtis. And ask if the problems they have in UIM Class 1 are new. Ask John Tomlinson.

Despite how spectacular it is, UIM Class 1 has suffered from all of the same problems we have right here. Spending wars. Ridiculous costs. Politics. Massive owner egos. Infighting. Fragmentation. Technical rule and safety issue. More than once, UIM Class 1 has found itself on the verge of collapse.

In the mid-1990s, I had the privilege of sitting in on a Class 1 team owners meeting. You think we have ego problems with team owners here? And by all accounts, or at least the accounts of the few racers I know, it hasn't gotten any better.

I cannot comment intelligently on X-Cat, but I can comment on UIM Class 1. And if you think it presents a workable model we should emulate here, you're kidding yourself. Its current state, and its history, just don't support that.

There is one area in which UIM Class 1 does provide a model for the U.S. community to emulate: the professionalism of its race teams. That's worth noting.

Last, if you're honestly suggesting that the Miss Geico team did anything resembling a disservice to offshore racing, I respectfully (but strongly) have to disagree. I, too, wish they'd done something with Super Cat, but that's not what the team owner wanted. Regardless, AMF Racing and Geico helped keep the sport alive.

purrfection 01-18-2011 08:51 AM

We are less than a full month into 2011 and there are at least 3 new racing possibilites on the horizon for John Tomlinson. Only time will tell just exactly where he will be dropping the throttles this year. He could be going for the 2011 Class 1 title as well as racing here stateside, so stay tuned here to get the latest on his racing plans for the 2011 season. This is from TNT's website. Undoubtedly, JT must not think there is very much wrong with Class 1 racing?

BROWNIE 01-18-2011 08:56 AM

Um, Matt....... "I can support every point her makes". Freudian slip?

T2x 01-18-2011 09:18 AM

When the sport abandoned rough water marathons, it killed itself. We were as guilty as anyone early on because we wanted to highlight the speed capability of our cats. But the bottom line is that as long as the sport continues to put big boats on small boat courses with unlimited size, power and speed, it will always run away from the essential competition that makes a motorsport interesting and exciting. Anyone who encourages and supports this unrestricted model, regardless of budget or intent, will continue to injure an already critical patient.

T2x

Pete B 01-18-2011 09:19 AM


Originally Posted by Matt Trulio (Post 3300021)
SkaterDave,

You are confusing the technology with the success of the racing circuit when it comes to Class 1. Qatar raced here last year because the team was disenchanted with Class 1. The Steve Curtis quote in my story supports that. Whatever benefit Qatar brought to the states last year was born out of frustration with things overseas.

But don't ask me. Ask Steve Curtis. And ask if the problems they have in UIM Class 1 are new. Ask John Tomlinson.

Despite how spectacular it is, UIM Class 1 has suffered from all of the same problems we have right here. Spending wars. Ridiculous costs. Politics. Massive owner egos. Infighting. Fragmentation. Technical rule and safety issue. More than once, UIM Class 1 has found itself on the verge of collapse.

In the mid-1990s, I had the privilege of sitting in on a Class 1 team owners meeting. You think we have ego problems with team owners here? And by all accounts, or at least the accounts of the few racers I know, it hasn't gotten any better.

I cannot comment intelligently on X-Cat, but I can comment on UIM Class 1. And if you think it presents a workable model we should emulate here, you're kidding yourself. Its current state, and its history, just don't support that.

There is one area in which UIM Class 1 does provide a model for the U.S. community to emulate: the professionalism of its race teams. That's worth noting.

Last, if you're honestly suggesting that the Miss Geico team did anything resembling a disservice to offshore racing, I respectfully (but strongly) have to disagree. I, too, wish they'd done something with Super Cat, but that's not what the team owner wanted. Regardless, AMF Racing and Geico helped keep the sport alive.


IMO, The one thing Class One, and X-Cat have over the U.S. Org is simple. One Class, Not 15 Classes with 14 Different winners. I have had the chance to attend a Class 1 and X-cat race. And It was top notch, upon arriving my POC Nigel Quiltter set me up with media credentials, and promptly told me to go to the Hospitality tent, If I needed any thing let him know.

The Pits, where more than anything I have ever seen in the states, on test day they Actually have time trials, for pole position. and when the racing starts, there is only one class out on the water!!!!!

T2x 01-18-2011 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by Pete B (Post 3300227)
IMO, The one thing Class One, and X-Cat have over the U.S. Org is simple. One Class, Not 15 Classes with 14 Different winners. I have had the chance to attend a Class 1 and X-cat race. And It was top notch, upon arriving my POC Nigel Quiltter set me up with media credentials, and promptly told me to go to the Hospitality tent, If I needed any thing let him know.

The Pits, where more than anything I have ever seen in the states, on test day they Actually have time trials, for pole position. and when the racing starts, there is only one class out on the water!!!!!

Bingo....That's a big part of the issue, and the races need to be longer, rougher, and (as a result) slower to levelize the playing field and give the lower budget teams more of a fighting chance.

fantastixvoyage 01-18-2011 09:51 AM

T2x - I remember just a couple short years ago the #1 complaint from FANS was how little they actually saw during a race. 3 or 4 quick passes by and that was it. Your marathons are great for racers but horrible for making it marketable.

The cities pay the biggest chunk of change for a race so of course they want the best show possible to keep the MASSES coming back.

A race series needs to decide are they catering to the old school racers or the fans? HORBA is putting on three marathons as you requested. Be interesting to see who shows up.

If anyone thinks these short courses are a breeze I'd like to see you take some of the tight turns these racers have to make. For me its just a different style of racing and every bit as technical. Not to mention there are still a handful of big water race sites depending on what series you run (and weather conditions) - Ocean City, Orange Beach, Key West, Sarasota, etc etc.

Tough to see thru all the agendas and negativity on this site, but I have had a blast at every race I've attended - as a fan or a racer. Thanks and appreciation to all the hardwork everyone has done

fantastixvoyage 01-18-2011 09:51 AM

And is it just me or are the boats racing overseas some of the ugliest boats out there? :eek:





:drink:

Matt Trulio 01-18-2011 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by purrfection (Post 3300194)
We are less than a full month into 2011 and there are at least 3 new racing possibilites on the horizon for John Tomlinson. Only time will tell just exactly where he will be dropping the throttles this year. He could be going for the 2011 Class 1 title as well as racing here stateside, so stay tuned here to get the latest on his racing plans for the 2011 season. This is from TNT's website. Undoubtedly, JT must not think there is very much wrong with Class 1 racing?

John Tomlinson also raced at the Key Worlds this year, as he has in many other years. Does that mean he "does not think there is very much wrong" with SBI racing?

My point is that Tomlinson, a friend and colleague, races where people pay him to race. If he's not getting paid, he's not in the cockpit. It is that simple. So his participation does not constitute an endorsement.

But I'll tell you what: I have to talk with him today for a story (and some logistical travel stuff in February) so I'll ask him exactly what he thinks. He's an honest guy who speaks his mind.

Matt Trulio 01-18-2011 09:56 AM


Originally Posted by T2x (Post 3300247)
Bingo....That's a big part of the issue, and the races need to be longer, rougher, and (as a result) slower to levelize the playing field and give the lower budget teams more of a fighting chance.

Absolutely, 100 percent agree on streamlining classes.

skaterdave 01-18-2011 10:27 AM

blah blah blah
 
matt, i'm not confused. please go back and reread my post. pete B picked up on it right away. i do agree with you on the what seems to be unstainable costs for the C1 teams. it's a pretty well know fact that Team Victory spends something like $80 million a year compared to Qatar which spends something like $4 million. from what ive read they are trying to fix that problem.

but really look at C1 overall, that series has been around longer than any organiization here in the states. There was always set rules. and their the only organization that has really put any effort in to safety with the new rules concerning the canopies. that rule also applied to X-cat.

then as for asking curtis or JT, first off they both steer clear of this stuff, but i think their actions speak louder than words. JT although he does races with CRC here in the states has been jumping back in C1 and i think we'll see both him, curtis and Team Qatar back in C1 this up coming year. whats that say about things in the US, Qatar did one year here and left. i think that was more of a powerplay between them and the ruling body of C1. let's be honest, Qatar had no real competition here and basically used this year as a giant test. just seeing that team in person was impressive. they are truely at another level.

now as for AMF and geico keeping the sport alive???????? agian i'll agree that yes they did positive things that helped the overall sport stay alive, basically threw some money around and that they do non profit type work. but that goes with the territory when you have a giant corporate sponsor like geico. but there was always a catch to these good deeds which directly served their own egos.

but can you pin point facts that would show that offshore racing has been made better or improved since amf's arrival?
thats the part that irratates me. i here the same thing every year, "we'll continue on our path and if someone build a 4 million dollar turbine we'll be ready to race them". thats exactly what marc and you are complaining about with C1.

that s complete crap. it solves nothing and worse it has offshore in this stalemate situtation where these one boat per class egomaniacs say the same stupid crap and point the finger at everyone else.

too first fix a problem one must realize the problem. it seems to me that most of these top tier racers just put on a smiley face and like the fact that they get a trophy at every race.

Matt Trulio 01-18-2011 10:44 AM


Originally Posted by skaterdave (Post 3300312)
matt, i'm not confused. please go back and reread my post. pete B picked up on it right away. i do agree with you on the what seems to be unstainable costs for the C1 teams. it's a pretty well know fact that Team Victory spends something like $80 million a year compared to Qatar which spends something like $4 million. from what ive read they are trying to fix that problem.

but really look at C1 overall, that series has been around longer than any organiization here in the states. There was always set rules. and their the only organization that has really put any effort in to safety with the new rules concerning the canopies. that rule also applied to X-cat.

then as for asking curtis or JT, first off they both steer clear of this stuff, but i think their actions speak louder than words. JT although he does races with CRC here in the states has been jumping back in C1 and i think we'll see both him, curtis and Team Qatar back in C1 this up coming year. whats that say about things in the US, Qatar did one year here and left. i think that was more of a powerplay between them and the ruling body of C1. let's be honest, Qatar had no real competition here and basically used this year as a giant test. just seeing that team in person was impressive. they are truely at another level.

now as for AMF and geico keeping the sport alive???????? agian i'll agree that yes they did positive things that helped the overall sport stay alive, basically threw some money around and that they do non profit type work. but that goes with the territory when you have a giant corporate sponsor like geico. but there was always a catch to these good deeds which directly served their own egos.

but can you pin point facts that would show that offshore racing has been made better or improved since amf's arrival?
thats the part that irratates me. i here the same thing every year, "we'll continue on our path and if someone build a 4 million dollar turbine we'll be ready to race them". thats exactly what marc and you are complaining about with C1.

that s complete crap. it solves nothing and worse it has offshore in this stalemate situtation where these one boat per class egomaniacs say the same stupid crap and point the finger at everyone else.

too first fix a problem one must realize the problem. it seems to me that most of these top tier racers just put on a smiley face and like the fact that they get a trophy at every race.

I did not "complain" about Class 1. I said it has the same problems we have here. It does.

Regarding JT: He's a hired gun. (I say that as his friend). He goes where he's paid to go. And once again, Curtis said Qatar came here because they were unhappy over there. He didn't "steer clear" of anything. Refer to his quote in my story. He was pretty candid.

Only an idiot would argue that fewer classes are not better. Few would argue that professionalism among racers is a "bad" thing. UIM Class 1 has both, and that's great. But if you think its rules have been consistent throughout its history, you're incorrect.

You initially drew an analogy between UIM Class 1 and NASCAR (and domestic racing to Kart racing). The analogy doesn't even come close to holding. NASCAR teams and drivers make big money. UIM Class 1 teams and drivers spend big money. UIM Class 1 teams are hobbies for rich man and rich countries and, ironically, the millionaires there complain about "overspending" by the billionaires. (Sound familiar?) The money goes in one direction ... out the door and into the water. As a "business model," UIM Class 1 is not a success.

Neither is domestic offshore racing in any form. No argument here. But the notion that UIM Class 1 has it figured out is simply incorrect.

Like you, SkaterDave, I think AMF/Geico would have been served, and better served the sport with Super Cat entries ... but that is not what the owner wanted. What did they do for the sport? Well, let's start with getting offshore racing back on television. Not the best coverage of all time, but something, right?

Last thing ... I think it's a little presumptuous to ascribe the motivations of Geico's charitable efforts to "the egos" of those involved. Do you actually know the people you're talking about? I do .. and I'd have to politely disagree with you.

Matt Trulio 01-18-2011 03:59 PM

As promised, I spoke with John Tomlinson today. We had plenty of ground to cover but we spent a lot of time on his Class 1 efforts with the Abu Dhabi team, which hired Tomlinson to throttle a Class 1 boat it leased from the Victory team for three races last season.

Currently in the process of putting together several different proposals for team for the 2011 season, Tomlinson sounded as excited about the prospect of running a full season in Class 1 as I've heard him sound about anything in offshore racing for several years.

His reasons were two-fold. First, he said he likes the rule changes for 2011, which essentially base horsepower and maximum engine speed (rpm) on the size and weight of the boat. The new rules gives the Class 1 competitors several options. Second, he said that Class 1 racing is all business.

"You don't see all the choppers and Lamborghinis (in the pits) like you do here," said Tomlinson. "From the guy who finishes first to the guy in ninth place, everyone races hard. And they're really good."

Tomlinson said that he was untouched by the politics and controversies of the 2011 season. "I was only there for three races," he said.

But while he is hoping to run the full 2011 Class 1 season, it is far from certain that he will as the season opens in April and he is still putting together proposals—one with the possibility of building a new 48 MTI with Sterling engines—for competing in the class.

"If we go with a new boat, I don't think it would be ready for like eight months," he said. "It's all a matter of what the team wants to do and how much money it wants to spend. I told them that with what we have now, we're essentially competing for second place. As long as they know that and are OK with it, I'm OK with it."

skaterdave 01-18-2011 04:14 PM

my comment about JT and curtis, was referring to those guys avoiding public forums. look at marc, he found a way thru his blogging to pontificate and not have to answer the general public like before.

my argument is that at least C1 has one class and consistently has been more stable than anything here.

as for my comparison regarding Nascar, again they race one class at a time so as not to confuse the fan just like C1 or X-cat. while yes C1 is probably a hobby for some at least they have are far advanced not just in the boat technology but in the entire team setup. also i never said that C1 is the end-all answer, just that they are several steps ahead of racing here.

as for geico and the tv, it was a one time deal. as far as i understand and have read, geico isn't sponsoring the tv for next year. yes opa has a some sort of tv deal but NO confirmed sponsor to pay for it, sound familiar??? also please don't combine my comment about ego's and charitable efforts. i stated that when being paid by a corporate sponsor that those types of duties are normal. also that haggin had a non-profit side of amf that performed charitable things.

now lets move on, haggin's gone and handed the rains to marc and scotty, i have not heard about any changes that would unite the classes or any attempt to consolidate their racing efforts in an attempt to change what both you and marc are pointing the finger at C1.

basically it find it hypocritical to complain about racing abroad and how those teams are spending x-amount of dollars in an effort to be winners then you look at what teams like gieco are doing, which is the same thing only they have taken it to the level, where they race NO ONE. they raced all year against no one. let me repeat that - THEY RACED NO ALL YEAR LONG. AT EVERY RACE THIS THEY HAD NO ONE ELSE IN THEIR CLASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the closest thing to a race came in st clair with catcando?

please point out one time that a C1 race has had only one boat in a race.

please point out a year where C1 has had only one boat and stilled crowned a champion.

can you really say things are just as bad. atleast give us some factual background to prove your point.

purrfection 01-18-2011 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Trulio (Post 3300614)
As promised, I spoke with John Tomlinson today. We had plenty of ground to cover but we spent a lot of time on his Class 1 efforts with the Abu Dhabi team, which hired Tomlinson to throttle a Class 1 boat it leased from the Victory team for three races last season.

Currently in the process of putting together several different proposals for team for the 2011 season, Tomlinson sounded as excited about the prospect of running a full season in Class 1 as I've heard him sound about anything in offshore racing for several years.

His reasons were two-fold. First, he said he likes the rule changes for 2011, which essentially base horsepower and maximum engine speed (rpm) on the size and weight of the boat. The new rules gives the Class 1 competitors several options. Second, he said that Class 1 racing is all business.

"You don't see all the choppers and Lamborghinis (in the pits) like you do here," said Tomlinson. "From the guy who finishes first to the guy in ninth place, everyone races hard. And they're really good."

Tomlinson said that he was untouched by the politics and controversies of the 2011 season. "I was only there for three races," he said.

But while he is hoping to run the full 2011 Class 1 season, it is far from certain that he will as the season opens in April and he is still putting together proposals—one with the possibility of building a new 48 MTI with Sterling engines—for competing in the class.

"If we go with a new boat, I don't think it would be ready for like eight months," he said. "It's all a matter of what the team wants to do and how much money it wants to spend. I told them that with what we have now, we're essentially competing for second place. As long as they know that and are OK with it, I'm OK with it."

As I stated earlier, JT must not think anything is wrong with Class 1 racing. You are right, JT is a hired gun and one of the best in the world, he has proven this over and over. I may be wrong, but people like JT do what they do, to yes make a living, but also and probably most importantly, FOR THE LOVE OF THE SPORT. These types of people don't get involved in the politics of offshore racing. Just my opinion.

Matt Trulio 01-18-2011 04:39 PM


Originally Posted by purrfection (Post 3300631)
As I stated earlier, JT must not think anything is wrong with Class 1 racing. You are right, JT is a hired gun and one of the best in the world, he has proven this over and over. I may be wrong, but people like JT do what they do, to yes make a living, but also and probably most importantly, FOR THE LOVE OF THE SPORT. These types of people don't get involved in the politics of offshore racing. Just my opinion.

You were right about JT. As I said, I have not heard him this excited about offshore racing in ... forever. I've spent a lot of time with him (long car rides through the desert for boat tests) and without betraying any confidences I can say that he hasn't exactly been thrilled with offshore racing in quite a while.

One quote I left out from JT in reference to his recent stint in Class 1 said it all: "It's like Super Cat was in 2001-2003."

purrfection 01-18-2011 04:49 PM

That is great to hear that JT is that pumped up about racing again. He has always been a true gentleman of the sport. Thanks for sharing this info and thanks for all your hard work in bringing us up to date with what is going on in the offshore racing world.

fantastixvoyage 01-18-2011 05:02 PM

Why would Geico give up the turbine cat?! 90% of the general crowd was there to see that boat run. I give them my full support for running that boat. Of course its just too bad they didn't have Aquamania and JBS to race against. but does that mean we should take away a 200mph Turbine cat from the show? HELL NO! Why should they have to step down???

Now if they would just toss some piston power in the MTI and ALSO race in super cat now that would be something to see!

I don't follow C1 all that much, seems a bit stale but a series that requires a brand new cat and sterlings each year to be competive?! Ya I see that taking off here real soon. :grinser010:

Agree with JT that they are all super competitive over there which is great. Especially when they have the bankroll to do it at that level.

Personally I like the classes we have here. Makes for a more entertaining day rather than one single 45 min race like C1. Even with 3 starts a day, there can be some lulls in the action.

How does a C1 race work? is there really only 30mins of real action then its over or do they run other classes (with less publicity) as fillers.

Pete B 01-18-2011 05:27 PM

[QUOTE]How does a C1 race work? is there really only 30mins of real action then its over or do they run other classes (with less publicity) as fillers/QUOTE]
I went to Class 1 race in Qatar in 08, joined up with X-cat , X-Cat Had 25 Boats all 2.5 Outboards, Gary Ballough Of Mapei Was there running his Doug Wright. The previous Day was the Edox Time trial which Gave the pole position to the fastest lap, actually something that made sense,
Race day the course was open in the morning to allow teams to make setup adjustments from the previous days, and see the conditions.

After the race the awards , with podium, (Just like F-1) It is a first class experience.

I went last year to a X-Cat event in Dubai, it was postponed due to a death in the royal family. but none the less, Dubai has a lot to see if there isnt a boat race.

The politics that goes on happens in all sports where money is involved , more so If your the one shelling it out. As for GEICO , I believe they are fufilling the sponsors contract, and in the end thats what they are obligated to do. If there were 10 turbine boats racing would it be cool??? sure, but it would not be susaintable over many years.

I believe most people would have loved to see Geico get a Super Cat, or hell for the money spent a fleet of Cat lights, IMO Cat Light and SVL where the shows to watch in KW. The Xtreme Cats are cool But seems that something always breaks. The Super Cat 750/850/Extreme850 is TOO much. Wiith JT racing in Class 1 more attention will be paid to Class 1 this year, than Super Cat here in the States.

As rumor has it WHM is crossing the pond to race there as well.

Matt Trulio 01-18-2011 05:29 PM


Originally Posted by skaterdave (Post 3300630)
my comment about JT and curtis, was referring to those guys avoiding public forums. look at marc, he found a way thru his blogging to pontificate and not have to answer the general public like before.

my argument is that at least C1 has one class and consistently has been more stable than anything here.

as for my comparison regarding Nascar, again they race one class at a time so as not to confuse the fan just like C1 or X-cat. while yes C1 is probably a hobby for some at least they have are far advanced not just in the boat technology but in the entire team setup. also i never said that C1 is the end-all answer, just that they are several steps ahead of racing here.

as for geico and the tv, it was a one time deal. as far as i understand and have read, geico isn't sponsoring the tv for next year. yes opa has a some sort of tv deal but NO confirmed sponsor to pay for it, sound familiar??? also please don't combine my comment about ego's and charitable efforts. i stated that when being paid by a corporate sponsor that those types of duties are normal. also that haggin had a non-profit side of amf that performed charitable things.

now lets move on, haggin's gone and handed the rains to marc and scotty, i have not heard about any changes that would unite the classes or any attempt to consolidate their racing efforts in an attempt to change what both you and marc are pointing the finger at C1.

basically it find it hypocritical to complain about racing abroad and how those teams are spending x-amount of dollars in an effort to be winners then you look at what teams like gieco are doing, which is the same thing only they have taken it to the level, where they race NO ONE. they raced all year against no one. let me repeat that - THEY RACED NO ALL YEAR LONG. AT EVERY RACE THIS THEY HAD NO ONE ELSE IN THEIR CLASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the closest thing to a race came in st clair with catcando?

please point out one time that a C1 race has had only one boat in a race.

please point out a year where C1 has had only one boat and stilled crowned a champion.

can you really say things are just as bad. atleast give us some factual background to prove your point.

SkaterDave ... hombre ... compardre

I am not "pointing the finger at Class 1." I am saying it has had all of the same problems we have here. So I struggle, as Marc Granet struggles, when people hold it up (and I understand this is not what you're saying) as a successful model to emulate.

On the plus side, and I'll take these points directly from you:

•please point out one time that a C1 race has had only one boat in a race. (NEVER)
•please point out a year where C1 has had only one boat and stilled crowned a champion. (NEVER)

Offshore racing on the national level here is a train wreck. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say it was in good shape. And as you pointed out, there are things UIM Class 1 does well and others, such as cost control and parity, it does not. (But they're working on it.)

Miss Geico raced no one in 2011. (If you want to see that in print, see my OPA Worlds feature in the last issue of Powerboat.) That's a fact. There were early season promises from other turbine teams, none of which materialized for various reasons. Not sure you can blame Geico for that.

Your point on TV sounds a little ... ungrateful. So if Geico didn't sign up in perpetuity as a TV show sponsor, what they did sponsor doesn't matter or didn't happen? Yeah, it was a one-time deal. And in the past few years before that, domestic offshore racing had exactly how much TV coverage? Nada.

My point was that you simply can't look at Class 1 overall and say, "This is a successful offshore racing model." It has elements of success for sure. It also has elements of failure ... and the failures, minus the multi-class cluster craziness the domestic sport has embraced, are just like ours.

Are things there now "just as bad?" You know, the harder I look at it, the more I have to say ... probably not. We have a much bigger mess to clean up. Unfortunately, and this is my point, there is no truly successful model to emulate.

skaterdave 01-18-2011 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by Matt Trulio (Post 3300714)
Are things there now "just as bad?" You know, the harder I look at it, the more I have to say ... probably not. We have a much bigger mess to clean up. Unfortunately, and this is my point, there is no truly successful model to emulate.

100% agree, but also would like to add that domestically i don't see anyone (major players) trying to do anything positive. like pete said even if there was one other turbine too race that class is unsustainable as far as costs go. so don't you find it a little ironic that someone that runs the only current turbine boat in a class by themselves would make a statement that things are no better here vs there. especially when their habits epitomize the BIGGEST problem in offshore.

as for 90% coming to see geico. i would beg to differ. i've heard that argument before and my answer has always been: ok then put them out there by themselves and see how cool it is to watch them parade around alone. in todays racing, of course geico is a fan favorite but 90% of them actually think that gieco is racing the other boats. 9 times out of 10 when i've been asked about geico and the racing once people realize geico is racing by themselves they are turned off and think its lame.

T2x 01-19-2011 07:24 AM


Originally Posted by fantastixvoyage (Post 3300272)
T2x - I remember just a couple short years ago the #1 complaint from FANS was how little they actually saw during a race. 3 or 4 quick passes by and that was it. Your marathons are great for racers but horrible for making it marketable.

The are no paying fans for these events....and the number of actual non paying fans is highly debatable. Most of the races I have attended in recent years feature thousands of people on a weekend beach day who would probably be there anyhow. The towns benefit primarily from the teams, the media, and their ancillary hangers on, or people who live a short driving distance away and consider the event like an annual carnival. The Key West race is probably the one exception to this although that venue benefits from the presence of a large Poker Run crowd. If there are so many "fans" clammoring to see this event, how do the Poker Runners find good accomodations?

Offshore racing is a sport that must have TV for promotion. Without that how can a random potential "fan" even find out that the sport exists? Once you have TV coverage (helicopter based) It doesn't matter whether the boats are in a harbor or 50 miles offshore. You can beam some video back to large screens in the "fan" area for the handful (by comparison to broadcast) of people who watch at the event...and show the entire race on a tape delay basis to a MUCH larger audience with sponsors and advertizers receiving some bang for their buck. The Europeans understand that and also get that you can't pollute the sport with numerous, meaningless classes.

My support of marathons comes from the belief that long courses change the game from a bunch of repetitive laps featuring grandstanding and bling and return the sport to a true racing model where equipment, personal skills and stamina are tested. This conversion may drive some current racer/owners from the sport, but it will open the gates to a whole different and larger breed of racer/sportsmen while encouraging talent and competition. These are the type of colorful people who pioneered the sport, and now stay away in droves. Much like the Baja race and Paris Dakar Rally draw world wide attention without "spectator friendliness", so too can Offshore Racing return to its roots and profit from the change IMHO.

Look, what's going on now clearly isn't working, and we all know the definition of insanity.

T2x

T2x 01-19-2011 07:56 AM


Originally Posted by skaterdave (Post 3300738)
100% agree, but also would like to add that domestically i don't see anyone (major players) trying to do anything positive. like pete said even if there was one other turbine too race that class is unsustainable as far as costs go. so don't you find it a little ironic that someone that runs the only current turbine boat in a class by themselves would make a statement that things are no better here vs there. especially when their habits epitomize the BIGGEST problem in offshore.

as for 90% coming to see geico. i would beg to differ. i've heard that argument before and my answer has always been: ok then put them out there by themselves and see how cool it is to watch them parade around alone. in todays racing, of course geico is a fan favorite but 90% of them actually think that gieco is racing the other boats. 9 times out of 10 when i've been asked about geico and the racing once people realize geico is racing by themselves they are turned off and think its lame.

For the record I really like and respect Marc and Scotty and believe that a lot of their budget in the past was based simply on a very rich guy playing with very expensive toys. While this did bring short term publicity to fast boats in general , it simultaneously hurt the playing field. Now that the team has a new perspective based on creating and maintaining some fiscal sustainability, I think you will see a more thoughtful and sensible approach to building not only the team but the entire arena. Marc's blog musings are an example of at least some consideration of a bigger picture and an understanding that things need improvement in Offshore Racing in general, a point that still escapes many of today's racing organizers and participants who are content in their increasingly irrelevant world.

T2x

LaughingCat 01-19-2011 08:00 AM

Sometimes things have to become a complete cluster-fvck before true evolution and change can emerge. Having multiple sanctioning bodies, circuits and classes is silly. But we've been doing it for decades and no one has successfully made the transcendent change.

I have known Marc for many years, both professionally and personally. He is one of the shining visionaries that has risen the ranks in offshore racing. I'm sure he has some great ideas cooking and everyone should be paying attention. Considering the new potential for our economy, it is time for racers, sanctioning bodies, everyone to put the past and our differences aside (but keep the competitive spirit) and watch what Marc, and the other dominant visionaries, can do.

Mike A. 01-19-2011 09:15 AM

The LLC had a competition and marketing model that worked. It had TV. It had a premier catamaran class with an average of 10 boats at each race. It had several other classes each with many boats. The racing was close and exciting with multiple winners and champions. It had pretty good events. It was being covered by the industry magazines. It had two hours of TV for each race on SPEED. It had a number of industry sponsors and manufacturers participating. It had a marquee series sponsor in GM. It also had a long range plan that included classic offshore racing and other events.

If it were not for some stupid, expensive business mistakes by inexperienced upper management (i.e. me) it actually could have been profitable, or at least self-sustainable for many years.

I still think it can be made to work again. But it would require a boycott proof premier class where the sanctioning body owned the boats.

It would also require a substantial investment of capital from a major corporation or outside investment group who a) was interested in making money; b) believed they could make money, or at least believed it was worth taking the risk. Common sense says that without these things the sport will simply continue to be a fun hobby for several dozen people, their family and friends, which is not so bad in the scheme of things.

Interceptor 01-19-2011 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by T2x (Post 3301183)
The are no paying fans for these events....and the number of actual non paying fans is highly debatable. Most of the races I have attended in recent years feature thousands of people on a weekend beach day who would probably be there anyhow. The towns benefit primarily from the teams, the media, and their ancillary hangers on, or people who live a short driving distance away and consider the event like an annual carnival. The Key West race is probably the one exception to this although that venue benefits from the presence of a large Poker Run crowd. If there are so many "fans" clammoring to see this event, how do the Poker Runners find good accomodations?

Offshore racing is a sport that must have TV for promotion. Without that how can a random potential "fan" even find out that the sport exists? Once you have TV coverage (helicopter based) It doesn't matter whether the boats are in a harbor or 50 miles offshore. You can beam some video back to large screens in the "fan" area for the handful (by comparison to broadcast) of people who watch at the event...and show the entire race on a tape delay basis to a MUCH larger audience with sponsors and advertizers receiving some bang for their buck. The Europeans understand that and also get that you can't pollute the sport with numerous, meaningless classes.

My support of marathons comes from the belief that long courses change the game from a bunch of repetitive laps featuring grandstanding and bling and return the sport to a true racing model where equipment, personal skills and stamina are tested. This conversion may drive some current racer/owners from the sport, but it will open the gates to a whole different and larger breed of racer/sportsmen while encouraging talent and competition. These are the type of colorful people who pioneered the sport, and now stay away in droves. Much like the Baja race and Paris Dakar Rally draw world wide attention without "spectator friendliness", so too can Offshore Racing return to its roots and profit from the change IMHO.

Look, what's going on now clearly isn't working, and we all know the definition of insanity.

T2x

I was watching the Paris to Dakar rally recently. This event has been on TV for many years, it's run out in deserts with zreo spectators and gets on TV. The European Rally car series gets on TV with minimal spectators also. Offshore racing could if it was unified and managed by a single professional group.

Fast Shafts 01-19-2011 09:31 AM

Mike,
Will you ever take another bite at the apple??

Mike A. 01-19-2011 09:40 AM


Originally Posted by Fast Shafts (Post 3301325)
Mike,
Will you ever take another bite at the apple??

Not with my own money!

Matt Trulio 01-19-2011 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by Mike A. (Post 3301312)
The LLC had a competition and marketing model that worked. It had TV. It had a premier catamaran class with an average of 10 boats at each race. It had several other classes each with many boats. The racing was close and exciting with multiple winners and champions. It had pretty good events. It was being covered by the industry magazines. It had two hours of TV for each race on SPEED. It had a number of industry sponsors and manufacturers participating. It had a marquee series sponsor in GM. It also had a long range plan that included classic offshore racing and other events.

If it were not for some stupid, expensive business mistakes by inexperienced upper management (i.e. me) it actually could have been profitable, or at least self-sustainable for many years.

I still think it can be made to work again. But it would require a boycott proof premier class where the sanctioning body owned the boats.

It would also require a substantial investment of capital from a major corporation or outside investment group who a) was interested in making money; b) believed they could make money, or at least believed it was worth taking the risk. Common sense says that without these things the sport will simply continue to be a fun hobby for several dozen people, their family and friends, which is not so bad in the scheme of things.

Earlier in this thread I said "there is no successful model to emulate." I need to amend that statement: While not perfect, APBA Offshore was far and away the closest thing I've seen. I like the notion of a blend of "spectator friendly" events close to shore and true offshore marathon races. There's no reason a series couldn't contain both. But as T2X points, you need television coverage.

I also like the notions of:

•One sanctioning body fed by regional clubs.

•Two classes, one V-bottom and one catamaran, at the national series and "world championship" levels and as many classes as necessary at the regional club level.

Mike A. 01-19-2011 10:42 AM


Originally Posted by Matt Trulio (Post 3301355)
Earlier in this thread I said "there is no successful model to emulate." I need to amend that statement: While not perfect, APBA Offshore was far and away the closest thing I've seen. I like the notion of a blend of "spectator friendly" events close to shore and true offshore marathon races. There's no reason a series couldn't contain both. But as T2X points, you need television coverage.

I also like the notions of:

•One sanctioning body fed by regional clubs.

•Two classes, one V-bottom and one catamaran, at the national series and "world championship" levels and as many classes as necessary at the regional club level.

Thanks Matt. Nothing's perfect. My primary point here is that none of the various ideas and concepts put forth on this and other threads are automatically good, bad, right, or wrong. But, there cannot be a "bigger sport" without subtantial capital investment, and there cannot be a substantial capital investment without the possibility of a subtantial financial return for the investors. In other words, when we talk about classes, and how many v-bottoms or cat classes are needed, or what kind of events we should have, we are wasting time unless it is in the conttext of how an investor can MAKE MONEY.

Accordingly, to generate a substantial ROI, I think the following elements are required, but not necessarily in this order: a dues paying membership base, event sponsors, series sponsors, entry fees, equipment registration fees, equipment lease fees on the premier class equipment. If at the end of the day, you cannot build a model where these "innies" greatly exceed the corresponding "outies", then the sport is never going to be "bigger" and better then it is today.

T2x 01-19-2011 11:06 AM


Originally Posted by Mike A. (Post 3301410)
. If at the end of the day, you cannot build a model where these "innies" greatly exceed the corresponding "outies", then the sport is never going to be "bigger" and better then it is today.

It's only fitting that a discussion about ocean racing and the sea should contain a number of "Navel" references..... :D

Mike A. 01-19-2011 11:54 AM


Originally Posted by T2x (Post 3301428)
It's only fitting that a discussion about ocean racing and the sea should contain a number of "Navel" references..... :D

Great minds think alike. Great catch - shows that your mind still functions even at such an advanced age. :evilb:

CigDaze 01-19-2011 12:06 PM

"It's like Super Cat was in 2001-2003."

This seems to be a recurring theme, lately.
Those were the days!


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