Too Fast ?????
 

In light of recent weekend events, I was wondering what people's thoughts were regarding the speed capabilities of new boats:

* Are they getting too fast ??
* What is the manufacturers duty to train, if any ??
* Would formal training/ licensing help ??
* Inland safety vs ocean safety & speed.......

Just thinking..............:confused: :confused:

A couple of months ago Hot Boat did an editorial asking the same questions that you have...

I belive it's all personal choice. I was out yesterday in a friends 32 cat in glasslike conditions and we were doing 100+ and there were no concerns other than windburn, now change the wave conditions and I lose that comfort zone, especially in light of the recent events, and be Damn sure we had lifeline jackets on. Now in my 32 v-hull it would be tough to do anything to put anyone in danger at the 80mph range it travels at, unless you were being stupid in wave conditions not suited for speed. I think it all comes down to common sense. Manufacturers shouldn't have anything to do with someones personal choice to go too fast for conditions.

Sports cars come to mind, yeah they can do 150+, but do you drive around like that every time you get in them, no, it's a pick and choose the time, and accept the risks as well. Not make the manufacturer put an electronic speed control for the speed limit of 70 mph around here.

Common cents
 

Id say you could hurt yourself in just about anything!!!

YOU TELL EM , TOO OLD ! ;)

R/T...My opinion is that stupid people are everywhere.

Stupid people cannot be controlled regardless of the training or regulations that are around them or available to them.

With that being said, it would be nice for some kind of training to be made available for boat purchasers. If it saves one life it would be worth it.

But, on the reverse side, even the most skilled and experienced people out there can meet an unfortunate situation. Sometimes, there is simply nothing one can do.

There also should be a responsibility by the manufacturers to build a safe vessel. Faster sells. The problem with faster is, what is given up in order to attain faster...higher X, steeper steps to get more hull out of the water, etc. These things can create speed, but be detrimental to control, especially when piloted by someone who either doesn't respect the craft's abilities, doesn't know the limitations or is impaired with the dreaded "beer muscles." A full out race boat has no business being in the hands of John Q. Public, unless they have had some kind of training.

I'm sure I'll catch heck for this,,, but I think Panteras picture looks like that could have been fun time !!!!

Right on Too Old!

Hey Too Old...for the most part I agree with you.

However...:D

Ford and Chevy do not teach drivers...but that is not on the same spectrum as a supercar. The first time I drove a Ferrari (1988 Testarossa) I had no clue what I was doing. We were on a track for a Ferrari Club meeting and I entered a turn hard and should have down shifted and powered through it. Instead, I did what I would do in any "normal" situation. I tried to slow down by using the brake. Bad move...I was lucky enough to avoid hitting the guardrail (or anything else), but I think I got permanent hearing damage from the owners screams coming from the passenger side. At that point I had wished that I had recieved some kind of rudimentary instruction.

From that standpoint, I think it is an apples to apples comparison with HP boats compared to "normal" boats.

Wellcraft had their "Offshore Boot Camp" (I don't know if they still do or not) and it was a great idea. I also heard from a couple that went through it that it was alot of fun.

I don't think it is necessary, but when you are talking about HP boating, I think that the manufacterers should give boat buyers the OPTION of taking such a course. Just my opinion though!

:D :D

An incentive could come from the financial loosers in most accidents...........the insurance companies. Offering a worthwhile discount on insurance if a qualified "program or course" is completed.

I heard that 50% of all boating accidents involve alcohol and 50% of those the guy is found with his zipper down! and no PFD.

TooOld- Open style fishing boats and jon boats have the most accidents you say? Look at the STM club and the Manetee issue, legislators dont nessesarily follow scientific data and fact. They bend to political pressure or the flavour of the political month. It will be interesting to see the political reaction over the next few months with regards to this "Bad Cat incident" and the speeds involved or the speeds the boat was capable of. Also, we have to understand that there are lots of people in our world who do NOT think our type of boats are cool, and we are thought of as "crazy, go fast boaters" with a death wish with no regard for our or anyone elses safety. And believe me if Bad Kat had of involved another boat especially a family with similar tragic results, their fault or not, ALL HELL would be breaking loose right now............Doug

I worry about the older boats that people keep re-powering and over-powering. They end up far exceding the original specs and the hulls are not 100%. They are not properly tested or checked in some cases.

On the newer boats, I try to guide my customers into something that they can handle. I agonize over what choices they make and if its too crazy we try to avoid it. Some customers will not listen because they want what they want.

Here is an example.. 24 ft HTM Blown 700ci approx 1300hp, wants 4-speed w/rev and our new drive. Used to take the family water skiing and some hot rodding on a lake. What would you do?

Too Old seems to always hit the mark.

29,I have not heard about Bad Cat, what happened.

If it takes you an hour to pull the vinal out of your butt, it's too damm fast..

pat W
:)

I like the idea of a volunteer course, but you are right when you say, "nobody would go"

so you have to offer an incentive and i think phantom hit it right with an insurance disc. but like he said it must be a "qualified course" but then again we say "so what is qualified" Tough call either way. I personally would attend if there became one bc i have never driven a boat above 80mph and a little timid to do so. Just my short .02

also Scarab driving school is still going on. Fairly new member "VelocityMike" went in April 2001 and he said he learned quite a bit. They say it is free but naturally it probably filters out of the price of boats somehow.

The insurance incentive works for me!:D When I moved to Fl. in 1990, I had boated mostly on big lakes, (went out in the Pacfic a couple of times) BUT I had no real ocean experience to speak of. So I enrolled in the USCG Aux. course, the Fl Marine Patrol course and I learned alot about Naviagtion/rules of the waterways type stuff. Not much HP related material though. AND I get a 15% discount on my boat insurance. Too Old is correct, NO amount of training can help stupid people! And I'm also afraid that it will be a matter of time before the gov't MANDATES boat Licenses, another money making venture!:(
MD

Sticking my neck into the noose ...

I DO think that the emphasis on speed has gotten out of hand. It was the ocassional "special" boat in the Powerboat trials that would run 100+, now it's almost a must to get your boat into triple digits. I've never been in a 100+ boat offshore, but was in one runing 80+ in 3-4 seas and quickly found out that it was above "my" driving ability (but not the race driver I was rideing with). I know there are many who can responsibly use a 100+ boat, but there are a lot of people with instant wealth that have no business in one who can easily walk up and buy one. A little more common sence and less emphasis on "extreme" speeds is in order. You shouldn't have to think your boat still has training wheels on it just because it can't break 90-100 mph.

I think their is a need for more available training. I took a driving course when it was offered by the Newport Beach CA Scarab dealer (Mark Frantz). It was a very good use for my $400 for the two hours I had on the water. I ran their boat harder in the class than I have ever run mine. It was great fun, it was safe, it was a great learning experience, and allows me to safely persue the envelope of my boat, even though it "only" runs 60 mph. I have no idea if my cost covered theirs, but it can't be too far off.

I also took a "Safe Boating" course from the coast guard when I bought the Donzi, my first offshore and twin engine boat. I'd been boating since I was 12 (8' hydroplane) and am old enough I don't need the course by law. My wife took it too, has been sailing about since she could walk, raced in the Womans World's (sailboats for those who havn't heard of it), and was a certified sailing instructor. We both had fun, didn't get bored, and probably "remembered" some stuff we had forgotten. We also got a 10-20% discount on the boat insurance by faxing them a copy of the certificate.

I also remember in a past Powerboat test reading that the new owners off a then very fast Skater sid they had several hours of training with Bobby Moore before going out on their own. Clearly a good way to get aquanted with that class of boat, should be "considered" a must for almost anyone moving up into that class of machine, and a good sign of a responsible dealer/rigger to offer it.

"I" vote for making it well known to new and old where training is (hopefully) available to help them transition from their bow rider to an offshore boat.

(Flack jacket and life jacket on) - Greg

I am sure to catch Hell for this but it is all Natural Selection people. If you are not smart enough to drive within your abilities then you are going to be eliminated. Be it boats, autos, planes (private), snowmobiles (which in fact have a huge fatality rate per unit sold) motorcycles, even pedal bikes. I am sorry but when I get behind the wheel (or handle bars) of my toys I put on a whole different attitude. I know life is short and my health is top priority. I have never crashed anything in my life and I have seen triple digits in everything I own. I just know when to make these runs and do not do them to impress anyone but myself. Whenever I got in trouble when I was young or broke something my dad always said "you were probably screwing around" he was right and with that said we don't need anymore meddling in our fun. Let those who can't handle it pay the price. I for one cannot afford such a price.

I agree with everything you said, except the last two sentences. You, in fact, do and will pay the price in higher insurance costs.

As more of these fatal accidents occur, I'm afraid the already limited "high performance" insurance industry will shrink even further, as companies not really comitted will leave. The remaining co's will be able to pretty much charge what they want, as they will be the only game in town.

Remember the late '80s, early '90s when it cost $6,000. to insure a $100,000. Cigarette ??? We may be headed in that direction again.......

What Too Old said!:)

too old:

"Before I do, let me say AGAIN that you are less likely to get hurt in your 150mph Skater than you are in that jon boat with an old 18hp Johnson. The statistics prove that."

Show me these statistics. I doubt boatus has data that includes Skaters.

More people get hurt in "jon" boats because there are many more "jon" boats than Skaters.

If these people with Skaters are so intelligent why are they not wearing seat belts? It seems foolish to drive 100+ and not be belted in.

"Then there's events like SKATERFEST. Educational no mater what type of boat you pilot. Why weren't more OSO members in attendance?"

Gawking at other peoples Skaters isn't that much fun for me.
It may have be fun for Pat Patel (gawkee), but not for me.

regards,

vtec

Too Old (and others), I am in firm agreement with your arguments. I am absolutely the last person that would call for more government regulation (the federal govt could be cut in half, but I digress).

But I think that this discussion is missing the point. Yes, fishing boats may cause more accidents. Yes, alcohol is the single biggest factor in accidents. Yes, the most bang for the enforcement/safety buck could be gotten here. However, that ain't the way it works...

Here's a prediction - some day, a guy in a "racing" boat is going to cream a dock or run over a family out in their bowrider. Some Senator or Representative up for re-election is going to catch wind of it and decide to "do something!" about the "racing boat" problem. It's much easier for the govt types to target a small population of "rich guys" that run those "racing" boats with their loud exhaust than it is go after the thousands of middle class guys out fishing and drinking beer.

Altenate scenario - same situation, but now we get the trial lawyers involved, and they decide to go after not just one builder (negligence in producing a boat that will run X miles per hour, yadda yadda yadda - use your imagination, I'm sure the parasites will), but the whole industry. Cost of doing business skyrockets, some of the smaller companies go under, insurance costs soar and/or insurance becomes unavailable at all.

The question is, what can we as a community do to prevent this action and to mitigate it when it happens? There are dozens of companies that build and sell performance boats, and Wellcraft is the only one I know of that offered any type of training. Maybe the industry needs to hold 1 or 2 day seminars (in conjunction with the big boat shows, perhaps?) that could give some guidance and seat time to prospective buyers and/or new owners - charge a $100.00 a seat, maybe.

The way I see it, you've got 4 basic types of operators:

• Experienced folks that know what they are doing and drive appropriately.
• Folks moving up to a performance boat from some other type of boat.
• First time buyers
• The idiots

If we look at it this way, the first group needs little or no attention - they are the ones going to Skaterfest, surfing OSO, etc.

Likewise, the bottom group is a write-off - some people are beyond helping. 40 year old adolescents and the like - all we can do is damage control.

The key, as I see it, is to move the people in groups 2 and 3 into group 1, rather than group 4. A good dealer will help, but we all know how many of those there are in this industry. When we bought our first performance boat, I was handed the keys to a boat that would hit almost 70 mph with almost no orientation or training; I guess I was lucky, the salesman rode from the ramp to the marina with me.

Most people are not even that fortunate. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I fear that unless "we" come up with a solution (makers, dealers, experienced boaters), we will have one imposed on us from the outside. Remember the most frightening words in the English language: "I'm from the government, I'm here to help."

As always, your mileage may vary....

Your first statement is true as far as it goes. It is also true that MOST fatalities on the water involve drowning after falling out of a boat (usually alchol is involved). The point here is that legislation is likely to be aimed at the low incidence high visibility (100+ MPH Skater) boat than at the beer drinking fisherman's boat. We are merely bemoaning that fact.

On your second statement - do YOU have any statistics that would indicate they would be any safer with seat belts? Getting knocked unconcious and dragged to the bottom doesn't seem too conducive to survival. Wearing a PFD will at least allow you to come to the surface, improving dramatically your chances to be rescued. Much as I personally dislike them I am beginning to see the value WEARING a life vest.

Just throwing a little gasoline on the fire . . .

I have read this thread and have thought about this myself. I, for one, do not have a "fast" boat. I have a sport boat that runs in the upper 50s. When I go to the lake, I see alot of boats zipping around the lake, everything from tunnels, big Vees, and please don't forget fishing boats that really can fly. In addition, jet skiis are also achieving very fast speeds of 60 and 70 mph plus.

There are many factors that come into play when trying to answer this question. Some problems that I see are that the following:

1. More boats on the lakes and oceans. Boating is becoming more and more popular. In general, the economy over the last 20 years has done very well. This means more $$$ for toys. In addition, the population of the USA is increasing tremendously. Look at Atlanta, the population of my county, Gwinnett, is one of the fastest growing counties in the U.S.A. This means more people with more money means more boats on the lakes and oceans. Lakes and such are almost becoming over crowded. Anyone who was on Lake Lanier this past Memorial Day weekend can verify this statement.

2. More boats that go fast. Sport boats, deep Vees, tunnel, fishing boats, and jet skis all have vehicles that go over 60+ mph. Was this the scenario 20 years ago? Others can verify this.

3. Younger drivers. More Yuppies going fast. In addition, younger drivers on jet skiis. Economy doing well, more money, more toys, more boats, more speed, younger drivers = bad results. I should change this to inexperienced drivers.

4. Alcohol. Number one reason for vehicle and boat accidents. This is not a disputable fact. I can't tell you how many post and threads that had the statements, "we were so wasted", " we were throwing back a few cocktails". Personally, I do not drink when I boat or anytime on the water. Get a DWI and you will see why. I only drink responsibliy.

If you combine the above factors you get a very dangerous situation on the water. Especially, with closed lakes. I believe this will get worse. As more accidents happen, guess who will step in to "save us from ourselves". UNCLE SAM. Wearing a life jacket will not stop an accident from happening but it will save a life. Wearing a helmet will not stop an accident but it will save a life.

How do we stop these accidents from happening? You don't and you can't. They will happen for various reasons. All we can do is try to minimize them and their effects.

I believe the voluntary safety course is a great idea, especially if I can get a discount on insurance.

Drive responsible. Do you really need to go WOT when the lake or area that you boat is crowded? Be smart about how fast you go and where you do your runs.

Stop frickin' drinking and driving on a boat. Almost everyone on this forum is guilty of this. Look at Lutz and Ms. Amy's pictures from LOTO. Did every boat have a designator driver? If you drink and drive a boat/car, stay the F&%$ away from my self and my family. I learned the hard way 11 years ago when I was 21. NOT A GOOD EXPERIENCE. It can change peoples lives FOREVER. I see so many threads about people drinkin and then driving.

I am not preaching to anyone, just giving my thoughts. I have 2 small boys and a wife that I love and who need me. Do not come closer than 100 feet of my family when we are sitting on the boat having a picnic at 60-70 mphs. (Happened Friday. Jet boat spraying 100 foot long rooster go so close that we felt the spray from his rooster.):mad: :mad:

Just my thoughts. We need to "police" ourselves. Be responsible, don't drink and drive and be careful where you run fast.

Sorry for the long post.

Eric Tupper

Eric, you make some very valid points. You should be encouraged to know that fatalities are decreasing in spite of all the factors you cited. Look HERE for more detail.

Please dont fry me for this
I agree with alot that is posted up here and all good arguments with good solutions to them.
BUT I believe this

For say a wave runner, there should be a course and a class of license,
then for fishing boats with up to ??? Hp there should be a license
Then in the perf world, you want a boat with say up to HP 300, a certain class license, then to go higher say to HP 500+ another license, then if you want twins over 500HP then another license
and so on and so on

Problem with the whole skater thing (dont get nasty) is that they are really reserved either for the flat out racing outfits (not pleasure skaters) which is fine and they too have accidents and deaths ect
But the flip side is basically for the very well off individuals
Not many of us can just go to a dealer and say Yeah I want THAT one, 36 with twin 1200's for 570 thou
Come on, most of us are lucky to even see 2-3 skaters per year up close and personal let alone buy one.

I have seen people possessed by an idea with no real information at all and just jump into something without having seat time, experience or anything else.

Hell Ill admit it, I had a 85 bayliner 20 ft with a 125 outboard, I ran that thing aground, bashed up about 5 props, trimmed iit out too much and basically beat the snot out of it, Once I took a course (which was not THAT worthwhile but okay on the basics of seamanship ect) I all the sudden did not ding props, knew how to go through channels and avoid any low spots ect.

What we have here (and this is not pointing to the accident in NJ on Monday) is people that have no concept of physics, boats in general or anything else they just think it is cool to have a "cigarette boat" (i hate that term) and dump 300-400 g's on something and just go go go

I DO think it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to at least PROVIDE a course (not mandatory for smaller run abouts) that is mandatory for the big guns if you have little or no experience.
If the purchaser refuses to take the course, the manufacturer could never be liable in the event of a fatality or issue or what not.

Personally to me 100+ mph in a boat is nuts, How fast is fast enough? Where the HELL do you need to go that fast?
Hell Mine runs 70 with 40 gallons of fuel, no back seat, no engine hatch down wind down stream on its best day and I was in smooth water and I was freaked scared to be going that fast.

I had an experience first time out on mine where engine started to sieze the crank bearings and took a wicked turn to the right on me and almost ejected my wife
No warning, no nothing. I have been boating for 17 years and let me tell you twin bravo';s and one cuts out on you at 3/4 throttle with no hydraulic steering your ****ED!!!!!
You cant hold on tight enough
NONE OF YOU CAN
I was suprised my boat did not roll
and that my wife was still in the seat next to me (oh man did I get an ear full for that)

Control is an illusion, you think you can control something as wild as a skater at 150+mph your freakin drunk.
You go that fast, it is only a matter of when.
It does NOT have to be driver error, what if your prop shaft snaps, or your input shaft to your XR drive breaks at that speed

It is plain and simple YOUR DEAD

If you want to , yes you can be in that position if you have something that is that wildly fast and yes you can take out other people in their bowrider if too close

Personally boats that are that fast
Classess and what not SHOULD be mandatory
Honestly, NO offence to anyone with a skater, Stay the HELL away from me
I dont want to be anywhere near you guys out on the water
Love your boats, love to see them run but dont want to be anywhere near them when they are really moving

Ill keep my 60-70 mph boat that cruises around 45 -50 and Im nice and happy
I personally have NO NEED to go 100+ mph and dont want to
My opinion, take it for what it is worth
Jason

Very good point.....that is indeed the case.

I find your opinions and thoughts always wise. However, I take exception to a couple of points you are making.

Having someone go 60-70 mph does scare me when they drive within 100 feet of my floating boat. I was not in a channel, I was in the middle of the lake. I definetely agree, this is driver error or driver being stupid.

Boaters new to performance boating may or may not be in "entry" level performance boats. You say to "Watch Out!" for these guys. Why? Because they have a smaller performance boat? I believe I know what you are trying to say, I disagree. The person who we need to watch out for is the EXPERIENCED driver who has been boating for years and years and gets CARELESS. Boaters new to performance boats may tend to be cautious and probably a little nervous going fast and especially going fast around others. Its the guy who has been going for fast for years who may tend to get careless.

I can name a few people personally who went from sport boats to 30 foot boats. The size of the boat a person buys has more to do with $$$ and lifestyle than experience.

Just my thoughts,

Eric

too old:

Can we get photos of that on darren's page? :D :D :D

Hey Risk Taker. You are absolutly right. What I meant was I cannot afford to put my Life at risk. I too know that for every accident by someone else the Insurance company will "spread" the loss over all policy holders. I just cannot afford to injure myself of worse. :D

I agree.

The only time seat belts make sense is if you are in a boat that WILL NOT capsize, roll or flip.

If you have ever been ejected from a boat at 80 or 90mph, you'll know that the water feels just like concrete -- and you'll likely bounce off the surface three or four times before, releasing the energy of the impact each time, before you finally stop.

Now if you are seat belted-in, and your 90mph 26 footer decides to do a barrel roll...imagine how much force your belted-in body will have to endure. Your neck will probably snap first. You'll not only be rammed face first into the 80 mph water, but that boat is going to come down on top of you too, ramming even more force against your body. Being belted in -- you won't get a chance to 'bounce' around - the forces will hit you all at once. If you do survive this crush, you will most likely be knocked out at the first blow -- ......so now your are strapped into an upsidedown sinking boat -- who is close by to rescue you?

It would be rare for anyone to survive something like that. If you are belted in, you ought to have a canopy that will eliminate the extreme forces of the 80-90mph water pressure you'll encounter --- AND a rescue crew too!

Seat belts would save lifes in some circumstances.

A canopy, 5 point harness, HANS device, helmet, and oxygen would reduce even more deaths.

No I don't have any statistics. No reasonable person could argue that if F1, NASCAR, INDY, USAF and APBA were to rid themself of harnesses and helmets they would be as safe or safer.

True ---

But F1, NASCAR, INDY, USAF and APBA will not allow you to race with a seat belt UNLESS you also have supporting protection from the subsequent impact: ie: roll cage, capsule, canopy etc.

In car racing, you don't have cockpit intrusive water forces to deal with either, so roll cages do the job just fine.

But, if you are seat-belted in a boat capable of capsizing, then, IMO, water deflecting enclosed canopies/capsules *should* certainly be used.

I've been involved in many crashes where I was thrown from my cartwheeling craft -- had I been wearing a seat-belt ONLY and stayed with the boat (with no capsule or canopy for protection from the impact), I'm pretty certain I would have suffered more severe injuries than I did.

Gentlemen,

Let me join in here if I may.

1. First off, I agree with everything Fred has said. We have ENOUGH laws already and we do not need any more!

2. One issue I have is that each and everytime to you get in a boat and go fast, you have made a conscious decision knowing the risks. If you are not willing to assume the risks associated with such an activity, DO NOT PARTICIPATE!

3. IF you choose to go fast, YOU decide what safety equipment you want to wear. Personally, at all speed events I wear, and require others to wear LifeLine Jackets and Helmets. If you choose to not wear such items, you have no righ to complain if something happens and you get hurt. Why? Because you knew the risks and did not take the necessary precautions to prevent such injuries.

4. I ONLY run my boat fast when I am not around others and do not run it hard close to other boats. It is to dangerous. I have a Skater AND I have ALOT of EXPERIENCE! More than most I would bargain. I have extensive racing experience as well. Does that mean I think I ma infallable? NO WAY! In fact, often times when I am running in fun runs etc. I am made fun of for wearing safety gear. Oh well! It doesn't bother me a bit.

5. My Skater is not new but my Formula is. Are all people that buy new expensive boats inexperienced? No. Are many? Sure. If you look at my experience you will see I buy both new and used boats and respect each for what it is. Both can be dangerous if operated improperly. If you think extensive MANDATORY training helps, just look at drivers ed and all the accidents kids have. Why? Because, if you are REQUIRED to do it, many will just show up and not gain anything from the experience. Those who attend on their own free will, will certainly take much more away from the experience.

6. You CANNOT regulate, mandate, or legislate common sense.

7. ALCOHOL should be BANNED from boating just like driving autos! I know I will catch heat for this but I feel very strongly about it! Even after ONE drink your abilities are impeded. You may not think so but it is FACT! When you assume control of a boat, and in the performance world a guided missle, you as teh owner/operator have a HUGE responsibility to yourself, other boaters and your passengers to be able to operate the vessel at 100% capability at all times. You also have the responsibility to ensure everyone on boards safety in the event of an emergency.

Sorry, I will come down off my soap box now!:rolleyes:

Hipocrit
 

1. First off, I agree with everything Fred has said. We have ENOUGH laws already and we do not need any more!

7. ALCOHOL should be BANNED from boating just like driving autos!

Make up your mind;)

Alchohol
 

Sorry I cant agree with alcohol being banned from boating ..Your telling me when im sitting at anchor all day in 90 degree weather I cant crack a brewski ?? NEVER....

I am an experienced boater that would be willing to take a VOLUNTARY substainative driving course, like Skip Barber for boats, but have not found any. I understand the Scarab school is for buyers of Scarabs, which I don't own. Most good judgement is based on experience, which is based on bad judgement. Any way we get experience without bad judgement is a good thing.

If anyone reading this thread is truely qualified to teach performance boat driving, there may be a business opportunity here. It's not that I'm a bad boat driver (I hope!!), but I'm a boater. And part of that is the desire to perfect our skills. There is a lot I can still learn. Can anyone reading this say that doesn't apply to them also? Therefore, Dockrocker: Good Post.

Cobra: I've also heard the open fly statistic, but heard that was for man-overboards who got up in the middle of the night to answer nature on the swim platform....

Whoever talked about alcohol and Memorial Day Weekend at LOTO: On my boat we had a DD and a DP (Dedicated Passanger) who both enjoy drinking in other conditions. Troutly does not drink and boat, and MnFastBoater (if he had made it) does not either. (Mr. Trout: thanks for the diet coke. I'll buy the next one) I'm starting to hear of more boaters who choose to not drink and boat.

This could have become a heated thread with personal insults, but for the most part has not. The calm discussion of conflicting viewpoints from experienced boaters is what makes OSO the best boating site.

Chart,

Shane and I brought up the drinking and driving issue. I have no problem with drinking. I have no problem with driving. I DO have a problem when these are done at the "same time".

Being boating enthusiasts, I would love to see us become more responsible in this area. If someone wants to drink and drive and roll their boat over or do whatever and kills themselves, that is their decision. However, it seems inevitable that the above person will end up hurting someone else and that is not good.

My family and I do alot of boating and the fun watersports. Because of Lake Lanier in GA being so crowded on weekends, we DO NOT ski on weekends and very rarely boat. Drunk boaters scare me a little.

I bring this up b/c when an individual drinks their reaction time is delayed. Combine this with very fast speeds and a terrible situation is created. The drunk driving a pontoon boat doesn't scare me AS MUCH as the drunk going 70+.

I'm seeing this post going all over the place, and I'll let you guys duke it out. One of the KEY reasons for this post is centering around the unfortunate skater accident over memorial day weekend, and the topic of experience is coming up quite a bit. Being a cat owner, and having a v-hull also, and alot of seat time and owning boats since I was 15 yrs old makes me agree with the experience issue. I know in a V-hull you can relax alot more than in a cat. In a cat, every ounce of concentration is on driving it, where as in a V you can "point and go" more or less in fair conditions. In a Cat, They ride better at speed, and go alot faster, and are totally day and night different as far as driver input goes. In my V-hull I cruise at 65ish, and do the occasional burst into the low 80's and really concentrate alot more during that short burst, and then go back to cruising along at 65 or so, relaxed. In the Cat, it's get on plane, get up to cruising speed, like 80, and I'm concentrating and driving it, not just relaxing, getting a feel for conditions, Now, throttle up into the big numbers, same concentration, but alot more mental input, things coming up fast, ect... Now Back down to 80, which is moving, you tend to relax, and not concentrate as much, only because you aren't going 100+, Not good, but probably very common in Cat's, it's just human nature. Now take a 36 skater, t/1000's, What's cruise speed, Pretty high I'll bet, and at what speed does the ride smooth out where it's packing air and riding good, the wave conditions will make this speed vary as well, but I dont know these numbers, or the top speed of this boat either, but the same a senario plays out, and depending on what high speed comfort zone in this big Cat is. Things happen real fast, and cant be corrected sometimes even with the best drivers in the world at the wheel and throttles. Bottom line is assumed risk is that of the driver and throttleman, the passengers may not be aware of all of this either, but any time I'm in a cat, I wear a lifejacket as do any passengers, I cant say I have the same rules in my V-hull, unless in a poker run. I think the bottom line is to do everything you can to protect yourself and your passengers when running fast. Do I feel that lifejackets should be mandatory, no, but if they were, alot of lives would be saved, but Then it would change everything about a nice cruise over to somewhere, Common sence cannot be regulated like we all agree. Shane, I know you have that same "Wow, are these two different worlds" feeling after spending alot of time in your V-hull, and then jumping in the Cat for a spin, it's like having to learn all over again. Alcohol, and driving a boat, I might have two beers purely out of thirst, on a hot summer day when I'm parked hanging out in a bay for 5-6 hours, but I generally stick to bottled water. Let the passengers drink, I go out on my friends boat when I want to tie one on...