Boating Drive By Wire
 

So I work for a company that has many applications of "wire" technology. A small subset of our industry is creating control systems that use actuators, wires, switches, etc for communication. One specific example is the apache helicopter which implements "fly by wire". Essentially we have replaced all mechanical components to use electronics. So I was thinking:

Why hasnt drive by wire controls become relevent in todays boating world? They are relatively inexpensive systems consisting of actuators, wires, etc...I know the high dollar boats use them but why not the lower end?

Probably Cost.
 

Being a former Cobra pilot, which was all mechanical and only about 3 million a copy (last model AH-1F), probably cost. When the Apache came out, it was about 16 million a copy for the basic model. Mechanical was easier for crew chief to fix, fly by wire was a nightmare that went up echeclons(sp?) of divisions too fix. Marines still use the Super Cobra. Gotta love mechanical!! IMHO

I assume you are aware of the Mercury DTS (Digital Throttle and Shift).

aka Throttle by wire and Shift by wire....

http://www.mercurymarine.com/_media/...fort_guide.pdf

i wasnt aware. what are the price points on that system?

I am not sure, but it comes standard on all Verados, and was/is an option on 496 and 8.2HO engines.

New Ilmor's and most diesels are as well.

interesting...thanks for the info.

I am real curious to see how these systems hold up over time in the very damp, high humidity environment that boats exist in. I would think over time, the electrical portion that senses position would get corroded and stop working or be erratic.

I did a little more digging, and it seems that all the new MPI black engines (big block and small block) are DTS equipped standard.

The Merc 1100 and 1350s also use DTS.

Merc had this technology on the Verado back during development of it back in 2000 and earlier.

i heard that about the ILMORS. is that a standard option or an upgrade?

i disagree. the component sensing the position could be hermetically sealed thus no water intrusion with a simple electrical connection on the outside.

There is a very simple sensor currently on our drives... for trim. And that thing never fails because of corrosion. LMAO. :lolhit:

Almost all center consoles are DTS especially Verado boats. Personally, I am not crazy about it. But my own boat doesnt have it so maybe I would get use to it if it were mine...

I have no problem with throttle by wire, or shift by wire. But I don't think I could ever do fully electronic controls, meaning steering. Big Reason for this is allot of boaters are DIY guys. and electricity Scares them! What happens if you loose power, be it via short circuit or Bad charging system? Electric assist would be one thing, but full electrical probably not.

I work for a large mining and construction equipment manufacturing company...many of our new machines have EH (electro-hydraulic) steering systems on them. They have several redundancies to account for sensor or wiring faults, etc. Granted a wheel loader may not be the best comparison to a powerboat, but there is no reason to be scared of it....as once the government and the legal dept are involved, there will surely be MANY failsafe components in place. aaaaaaaaand maybe that's why it hastn't already been done for pleasurecraft? lol

Mechanical in the Cobra is what cost my dad his shoulder... :-)

IMO if its good enoough for hlicopters which are airborn then its good enough for anything else.

The airborne environment is very dry, has required frequent inspection schedules, and trained technicians.

The marine environment is damp and corrosive, has irregular inspection schedules, and the mechanics are ignorant rednecks, including those who are very well known in this industry. Sorry, guy, you know who you are.

While marine EFI has essentially been fly-by-wire for nearly 20 years now, and so it SHOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE for the suite of diagnostic tools to be developed and deployed, in fact what happened is the technicians still only know how to turn a wrench, and the information tools the manufacturers and the secondary market have deployed are purely a joke.

Hence, EFI fairly quickly becomes a GIGO machine -- garbage in, garbage out -- because all the sensors, signals from sensors, all the actuators and signals to actuators, and all the connectors everywhere degrade in a noisy manner. They don't simply fail, they just get more and more glitchy. Since the software in the EFI incorporates no form of fault tolerance whatsoever, the noise coming in results in noise going out, or the noise going out results in what looks like noise coming back, and no tools to isolate the source of the noise.

The result is what we all experience on this board: our drive trains gradually get more and more annoying as we spend more and more boat bucks, until we throw in the towel and repower, refit, and/or replace the whole enchilada.

The total lack of suitable tools for the technicians (mechanics) to actually isolate and identify the source of the glitches, combined with the manufacturer's diagnosis tree that instructs the technicians to start by replacing the most expensive items first, results in profits for the engine builders, new sales to boat builders, and lots of money WASTED at mechanics shops. So who is encouraged to fix this problem? Nobody. So it continues. And we just keep bleeding.

So, to answer the OP: Its been fly by wire for a long time, and its resulted in less fun at more expense.

hmmm good points. i agree with 90% of your post. the ony argument i disagree is the airborne environment is dry...this is simply not true. all of our components require salt spray tests for qualification. its pretty extensive.

True the airborne enviorment is harsh on all accounts. Not only the helicopters have fly by wire, but other aircraft in all the Armed Forces, deployed in all the different climates. Very stringent on testing. Early on EMI proved to be the problem on fly by wire, now fixed.

Still looks like cost vs. being able to work on things yourself?

Years Ago I Purchased A Electric Helm From Morse Controls, I Needed A Zero To Low Effort Steering Due To A Disability. It Was Not Recommended For Speeds Over 60.
Its A Litte Sluggish In Response But Worked/s Fine For Me, But They Stopped Selling It And I Can't Even Find Anyone At Morse To Admit It Existed - So I Guess That Speeks For It.
I Do Know A Disabled Lobster Fishermen That Had A Joy Stick Throttle/steering Installed By The Company That Puts Them In The Navy Seals- Big 60-70' Fast Insertion Boat- But Probaby Big $$ - They Donated The System After He Was Injured So He Could Still Captain His Boat

You are also talking major money differences in up front cost. This equates to a totally different factory setup and tolerances.

For example if boat manufacturers had aircraft grade facilities, cross testing procedures, etc. my boat would have cost a million dollars. Sure, everything comes out perfect out of the box but it just wouldn't be worth it.

Most auto pilots are electric over hydraulic and not expensive at all comparatively. If there was a need or a want it would be fairly easy to add electric joystick steering (with some kind of override) to virtually any boat.

The new Gen IV Ilmors (650 and 725) plus all their ski boat engines are fly-by-wire throttle, as that's the way the intake systems come from Chrysler and GM, so there is little added expense. The proprietary Ilmor transmission that mates with the Indy stern drive is designed to operate on a fly-by-wire basis, but properly vetted and tested controls are not yet available.

Volvo's D-series Diesel sterndrives and IPS (pod) packages are all fly-by-wire throttle and shift, as they were designed that way from the start. In addition, the IPS systems are electric-over-hydraulic steering, which is also an option on the sterndrive packages. (This is what makes the joystick operation possible.) To date, Volvo has over 11,000 IPS systems and several thousand sterndrive systems in the field with few (if any) failures reported.

Mercury's first Axius system (steer-by-wire sterndrives) proved so problematic, that it was scrapped and replaced by Axius II, which seems to be far better.

Anyone who has ever had to thread a new push-pull cable down through an existing tightly-rigged boat won't miss the demise of those things...

That's no ****!!

Here's some more new throttle, shift, and maneuver by wire marine componentry...

http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/...0402_cim03.jpg

All great input, thanks guys.

The reason why I started this thread is simple. boat builders (i.e. cigarette, OL, nortech, skater, etc) spend millions of dollars developing new hulls, carbon fiber inlays, digital read outs, etc...state of the art stuff, yet the steering and throttle technology is as archaic as the 1970's. the teleflex lines always seem to gum up and become resistant after only a few years use. quite sad. just my 0.02.