Can a cat boat be built with a blow out hinge flap to prevent a blow over?
11-13-2011, 10:09 AM
#102
Registered
I’m not an engineer or anything but I can not see how a blow over preventer or flap or wing would work. Like said before, this aint Nascar on a smooth track. Boats pitch up and down and roll side to side violently and that’s just when you are rollin. There is not a chance that a computer would be able to interpret what’s good and what’s bad and then make the decision to do something about and actually perform the saving action before you reached the point of no return.
Most of the boats race on the edge and that is the difference in the winning and other boats in the race. The one that is willing to hang it out the furthest on that edge.
For a blow over preventer to work it would have to be set before the point of no return and that would basically be like traction control for boats. Just firewall the throttles and let the blow over preventer keep the boat from flipping over. That‘s not racing.
Most of the boats race on the edge and that is the difference in the winning and other boats in the race. The one that is willing to hang it out the furthest on that edge.
For a blow over preventer to work it would have to be set before the point of no return and that would basically be like traction control for boats. Just firewall the throttles and let the blow over preventer keep the boat from flipping over. That‘s not racing.
As for the boats running on the edge, true. But there is absolutely a point of no return. We're talking about a "nose high" condition which isn't the same thing as running at the most optimal trim condition. So if there was a boat running by "firewalling the throttles" he isn't going to win because if the boat is running nose high, its running slower than the boat that is optimally trimmed. I'm all for these guys hanging it out to the edge, but my point is that right now, there is no back-stop to protect them (as well as recreational boaters) and reel things back in. They simply cannot react quickly enough.
Today, the program is as follows; "Ok guys, go out and run the boat as far out on the edge as you can. If you go to far, theres a REAL chance you'll be killed and if that happens, oh well, you died doing what you loved". To bad, so sad. To me, its absolutely rediculous!!
Another recent post in this thread mentions that "blow-overs aren't that common". Two in the last year, costing four men their lives is enough, no? If not, what is the threshold that needs to be crossed. How about a recrational boat blowing over during a poker run and killing all six people on board; will that be enough? Or maybe two more race boats next year, killing four more people; maybe that will be enough? Or maybe the attitude should be "there has never been a blow-over at a poker run, so why think about it until it happens?" Pretty short-sighted IMO.
The idea behind saftey inovation is not to limit performance. Its to prevent disaster, hopefully before it happens. Take the air-bag. Its designed to stop a person from smashing into the steering wheel, dash, windshield, before they get there. Same premise. You can bet your azz that if just one of these big Cats was saved from a blow-over because of a saftey inovation the driver/owner/crew/passengers would be believers and thanking God that something diverted disaster and saved their lives (and their boat).
11-13-2011, 10:17 AM
#103
Registered
Blowovers in offshore are extremely rare. The three I am aware of were all related to balance. The most recent two resulted in fatalities because of canopy design and construction failures, ballistic water intrusions, and blunt force trauma to the racers.
The Page Motorsports accident appears as if it was the type seen most often - roll in a turn. Witnesses say the boat appeared intact afterward and the the fatality seemed related to oxygen deprivation, which again would involve cockpit design and construction.
My experience suggests that energies should be focused on continued improvement of the cockpit designs and construction. If that involves a hybrid capsule concept for offshore boats, great.
The Page Motorsports accident appears as if it was the type seen most often - roll in a turn. Witnesses say the boat appeared intact afterward and the the fatality seemed related to oxygen deprivation, which again would involve cockpit design and construction.
My experience suggests that energies should be focused on continued improvement of the cockpit designs and construction. If that involves a hybrid capsule concept for offshore boats, great.
Capsules are without a doubt the answer in the racing environment. What about the risk to recreational people?
11-13-2011, 10:41 AM
#104
Registered
Capsules would be great in offshore race boats. Proven time after time. Recreational boaters will continue to run faster and increase risk. Why else would you have open cockpit cats running 150-160+ mph?
11-13-2011, 10:48 AM
#105
Registered
I am not aware of any blowovers in the recreational environment. The more common problems are rollovers and/or trip/stuff/hook related ejections. I am certainly in favor of manufacturers improving safety as much as possible, however, including blowover protection, as surely a blowover will occur eventually.
11-13-2011, 11:17 AM
#106
Registered
I am not aware of any blowovers in the recreational environment. The more common problems are rollovers and/or trip/stuff/hook related ejections. I am certainly in favor of manufacturers improving safety as much as possible, however, including blowover protection, as surely a blowover will occur eventually.
The roll-over problem is really a bigger one than the blow-overs because of the frequency, but thats a tough one to solve. It all happens quickly but the roll-over thing is going to take some real ingenuity.
I think you're on to something with your statement about the ejections. Opens the door to some kind of improved seating (in the recreational side as the Capsules solve the problem in the racing side). There needs to be a way to keep the occupants in the boat unless its up-side-down.
11-13-2011, 11:24 AM
#107
Registered
I think the recreational side is more at risk. You see recreational boats that routinely run @ 160+ with more than a handfull up in the 180s or higher. In my opinion, if there is any way to provide a backstop and reduce the risk even a little, it should be pursued. I just hope it happens before one more life is lost; something that I think is totally possible; at least in the blow-over scenario.
11-14-2011, 03:34 PM
#108
Just remember the new Porsche that the drunk movie star wrecked near Philly. The car had all of the new technology: stability control, traction control, anti-lock brakes, air bags all around the driver, crumple zones and what ever else the Germans could put in a 200k sports car. It still could not prevent a fatal accident if the car (or boat) was going faster than conditions allowed.
Technology can only prevent so much. Some times too much speed is just too much speed. And some times, sh#t just happens.
I hate that we have to lose people in racing accidents or just real world accidents. I, like so many others, am very lucky to still be alive.
Technology is great and I hope that it can make this great sport safer so we don't have as many fatal or crippling accidents. If it just saves a few lives, it will be more than worth it.
Technology can only prevent so much. Some times too much speed is just too much speed. And some times, sh#t just happens.
I hate that we have to lose people in racing accidents or just real world accidents. I, like so many others, am very lucky to still be alive.
Technology is great and I hope that it can make this great sport safer so we don't have as many fatal or crippling accidents. If it just saves a few lives, it will be more than worth it.
11-14-2011, 03:51 PM
#109
Registered
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UIM Canopy rules for Offshore Class
Start on page 55
http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vf...-0-file,00.pdf
Here is a small portion of those rules:
8. A continuous fitted structural framework inside the cockpit must be installed reducing the unsupported panel area sizes of the cockpit cell lining. The framework will incorporate roll bars fore and aft of the hatch with extensions to support the screen aperture divisions, the rear bulkhead directly behind each seat and the top escape hatch flange.
The flange is to be a minimum of 25mm width (New build boats must have a minimum of 50mm) measured across the flange recess, with the hatch opening measuring 0.55m by
0.825m at the widest points. The canopy apertures should be cut with all corners having a radius of minimum 25mm. The radius should be constant and have a smooth finish to
relieve stress. The canopy aperture must have a 20 mm wide (minimum) fluorescent orange band around the opening. All boats are recommended to use the double flange method of installation as per the graphic below. All new build boats 2010 onwards must use the double flange installation.
9. There must be a minimum of 1 compression strut installed to support the canopy.
10.The main hatch being directly above the crew’s helmets and its supporting flange must have further reinforcement to maintain its shape under stress and be able to withstand
the impact of the water and retain its ability to function. The hatch thickness must be maintained throughout and not reduced at the flange where possible. The hatch should
be protected by water deflectors incorporating internal and external method of prizing open the hatch caused by water pressure or binding to assist in emergency underwater
rescue and escape.
Windscreens
1. Polycarbonate (Acrylic will not be accepted) areas are strongly recommended to be as small as possible, while still maintaining that the pilot and co-pilot have clear, safe and
undisturbed visibility ahead at sea level whilst racing. it is strongly recommended that these polycarbonate areas are built using 12 mm thickness, or more.
2. The combined visibility the pilot and co-pilot must be through a horizontal arc of 225 degrees (112.5 degrees either side of the centre line of the boat).
3. These polycarbonate panels are to be recessed into the composite structure and should be bonded using a suitable bonding agent, and/or “bobbins” (Bonding the Windscreen is the recommended method of fitment. Boats built after January 2010 must use bonding only, to fit the windscreen no bobbins will be allowed)
4. It is highly recommended that there is also a through bolted outer flange for the fitting of the polycarbonate panels.
5. Screen flanges should be a minimum of 50 mm, if bobbins are to be used they should be fastened every 100 mm it is recommended to use metal bobbins” with heads, as opposed to the recessed plastic type.
6. The outer polycarbonate area of the flange fitting must not be painted, so that the measurer / scrutineer may monitor any discrepancies.
Start on page 55
http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vf...-0-file,00.pdf
Here is a small portion of those rules:
8. A continuous fitted structural framework inside the cockpit must be installed reducing the unsupported panel area sizes of the cockpit cell lining. The framework will incorporate roll bars fore and aft of the hatch with extensions to support the screen aperture divisions, the rear bulkhead directly behind each seat and the top escape hatch flange.
The flange is to be a minimum of 25mm width (New build boats must have a minimum of 50mm) measured across the flange recess, with the hatch opening measuring 0.55m by
0.825m at the widest points. The canopy apertures should be cut with all corners having a radius of minimum 25mm. The radius should be constant and have a smooth finish to
relieve stress. The canopy aperture must have a 20 mm wide (minimum) fluorescent orange band around the opening. All boats are recommended to use the double flange method of installation as per the graphic below. All new build boats 2010 onwards must use the double flange installation.
9. There must be a minimum of 1 compression strut installed to support the canopy.
10.The main hatch being directly above the crew’s helmets and its supporting flange must have further reinforcement to maintain its shape under stress and be able to withstand
the impact of the water and retain its ability to function. The hatch thickness must be maintained throughout and not reduced at the flange where possible. The hatch should
be protected by water deflectors incorporating internal and external method of prizing open the hatch caused by water pressure or binding to assist in emergency underwater
rescue and escape.
Windscreens
1. Polycarbonate (Acrylic will not be accepted) areas are strongly recommended to be as small as possible, while still maintaining that the pilot and co-pilot have clear, safe and
undisturbed visibility ahead at sea level whilst racing. it is strongly recommended that these polycarbonate areas are built using 12 mm thickness, or more.
2. The combined visibility the pilot and co-pilot must be through a horizontal arc of 225 degrees (112.5 degrees either side of the centre line of the boat).
3. These polycarbonate panels are to be recessed into the composite structure and should be bonded using a suitable bonding agent, and/or “bobbins” (Bonding the Windscreen is the recommended method of fitment. Boats built after January 2010 must use bonding only, to fit the windscreen no bobbins will be allowed)
4. It is highly recommended that there is also a through bolted outer flange for the fitting of the polycarbonate panels.
5. Screen flanges should be a minimum of 50 mm, if bobbins are to be used they should be fastened every 100 mm it is recommended to use metal bobbins” with heads, as opposed to the recessed plastic type.
6. The outer polycarbonate area of the flange fitting must not be painted, so that the measurer / scrutineer may monitor any discrepancies.
11-14-2011, 06:05 PM
#110
Registered
Just food for thought. I'll start by saying that I've never run a cat, nor even ridden one, but I keep thinking about this thread, and wonder.... I know a tunnel tab in cats is used to promote lift, or packing of air into the tunnel. If one of these was able to be actuated very quickly, and upon sensing an unfavorable attitude of the boat, buried itself in a "down" position; would that aid in bringing the bow down? I liken it to the elevator on a plane at this point. I'm just not sure if it would immediately lift the stern, and bury the bow, which would almost be desirable in this situation... or if blocking the tunnel off would suddenly promote increased lift and "kite" the entire boat, not just the bow?
Just thinking out loud.
Just thinking out loud.
