Commentary: Ripples from Key West
 

After a week of thinking about it, writing and rewriting it, http://speedonthewater.com/commentar...-key-west.html.

Well said Matt. As for me I would be very comfortable in a big V that ran 70-80.

Very well versed my friend!!!

I agree, the events of the last few weeks have changed my perspective of offshore racing. However, do the elite high performance pleasure boat owners push the boat hard in the similar conditions to Key West this year? I would think conditions would need to be ideal to really push the boat hard.

rEven in ideal conditions, 150 mph, not a huge number these days, is 220 feet per second. That makes "reaction" time little more than wishful thinking. Mechanical issue. Something in the water. The risk remains, and it remains huge.

+1

YES! My perspective changed after our roll over in KW a few years back. Our crash was in slow motion and non dramatic to me, but the reaction of others to it really made me stop and think and reflect on what is really important to me.

We've had other tragedies in the offshore world .... the accident at Smoke on the Water, the accident at Patchogue, the accident at Cumberland ...... Maybe there was too much distance between them to make the impact on offshore that the deaths in KW have made but the impact of those accidents were felt by their families and friends... by their fellow racers and poker runners. No one is exempt. Experience or no experience.....

"But if three racers perished with “protective” canopies over their heads, what chance do people have in open-cockpit high-performance pleasure boats running similar or greater speeds in the same kind of catastrophic event? None. And we all know it. And if we don’t know it we’re stupid. Or ignorant. Or both."

Safe & Sane??
 

Matt:

I have to agree here also. although we all love the thrill of speed to a point, there comes a place and time where the "need for speed" is outweighed by the "need to live!"
I raced smaller boats in my early years and I have been tossed out at over 100mph twice and luckily both times I escaped serious inury and "walked away." I think the sobering thing about the tragic events of Key West races this month is that a lot of racers and performance boaters can now better relate to how easily the ever increasing speeds can turn on the boat in an instant and end in a disaster for the racers or occupants! I know some will tyr and make the analogy that its just racing. I understand that thought and "BugBite" , had it a long time in my life also. We must also remember that in professional "buck" racing with its income, sponsorship and career endeavors the psort becomes more of a job. In our sports "gentlemans" racing with not real careers, big earnings and huge public following like Nascar, Indy, Formula 1. Is it worth ending your life for or seriously injuring yourself for. I think NO! Lets take the time to learn from the accidents and losses, design and mandate better safety features and systems and lets cap the speeds to a more resonable level and make sure race organizers and bodies mare carefully evaluate course conditions and delay or call races when conditons are known to be on the edge of safety.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

I watched that video a few times & it's hard to read the water but it really did'nt look that choppy or rough, I also thought the same thing about loto until I got out there, boy did my tabs & passengers get a workout! I commented on a thread a while ago about just how fast is 180mph, & as I said then at those kind of speeds there is no time to react. With that said I would like to wish that all racers from all sports who lost their lives R I P & my condolences to all the families. Randy

Bobby Saccenti called me last week when he got home from being in Key West. We spoke about this awful tragedy for quite a while and came up with some old guy answers.

1.) The boats are too fast and the courses are too short.
2.) Get back to long legs and real ocean racing, min 150 mile races.
3.) Simplify the classes...3 maybe 5 if needed.
4.) Have just one big boat class....max 45 feet or so.
5.) One engine spec. Big block, one carb, log exhaust
6.) Max of 4 blades on the props.
7.) Offshore version of a silhouette NASCAR car. Hulls and decks identical, available to everyone to be rigged.
With these restricted engines speeds for the single engine boats would be approx 65 MPH and the twin engine boats in the 90 MPH range. Average speeds for the big boats over 150 miles of real ocean would be in the 70 mile range

Jersey speed skiffs, SK boats, Unlimited hydros are all very exciting, but they stayed as they were raced 10 years or 20 years ago. Leave the real offshore racing alone and call this harbor and beach stuff by another name.

Well wrote!

I felt exactly the same and have since given up on my dream of a large fast cat. The thrill of running my boat is more then I need now!

Matt,

I have to agree with you - again. Hopefully, these tragedies will bring about meaningful changes to race boat / cockpit construction on race boats so lives will be saved in the future. Just as Dale Earnhardt's unfortunate death led to dramatic changes in NASCAR, maybe these three deaths will lead to simlar changes in Offshore racing.

I also agree that the potentially bigger issue is "pleasure" boats that are running nearly as fast - many times with nowhere near the experience behind the controls. I personally campaigned to eliminate the "radar run" portion of our club's annual Poker Run a number of years ago because several of us were getting nervous about the speeds and lack of talent. As much as I enjoyed running that show, I'm glad we gave it up.

I just hope most of our members are serious enough about safety on the water to avoid becoming a headline someday. Keep up the good work!

Tom

Great commentary Matt.
Just a couple of thoughts, If one looks at NASCAR, there was a reason they implemented "restictor plates"-to slow the cars down! The cars are running slower today than 20 years ago, and the competition is closer today than ever before! Boat racing could do the same. Is there really a need for Super Duper Extreme Unlimited Turbine Cat Class?? Its become an "Exhibition Race" against few or no competitors. Slowing the boats down with some serious tech rules could be a great start-and improve on "competition".
One thing I think Offshore Racing has done right is limiting the long distance courses. There is a huge safety factor here. If one looks at the tragic event in front of Mallory Square, divers were able to respond in 40 seconds. Just imagine if it were in the olden days, and your 20 miles Offshore, how many minutes it would take for help to arrive? I'm sure Rich L. might even agree, even though he has been an advocate for long distance racing as it was 30 years ago.
Less is more. Less classes, less speed=more safety, more competition.
My Prayers go out to all of the racers, family's and friends who were effected during last week's tragedies. A real tragedy would be to do more of the same-nothing.

Charlie,

I like 1, 2, and 3 on your list....

I agree Matt. The tragic losses at Key West have shaken me. I have seen many accidents over the last couple of decades but this year was absolute worst. I agree it is unacceptable and I think that the changes that need to be made will come far too slowly. A few years ago ( as a poker runner, not a racer ) I grew tired of not just the risk associated with running my offshore boats at speed but the abuse on both our equipment and our bodies not to mention the never ending expense of keeping the boats in good mechanical condition. For me it was time for a change. That is what got me thinking diesel and I now enjoy long distance cruising at a safe speed and seeing far away places that are now within reach. Still offshore boating, but in a different, much more enjoyable way. Be safe my friends.

Bob

Having done the 165 + ride in an open cockpit SKATER behind a canopy, I can honestly say it was not much of a thrill ride for me. For one, the canopy removes all sense of the speed you are doing therefore takes away some of the fun factor. Other than reading an airspeed gauge you really don't know you're going that fast. The reason I went for that ride? The experience. It is now checked off my bucket list. It would not bother me if I didn't do it again. I have had my best experiences with speed in my small Bullet 130 at 70 mph in the open ocean and it still ranks at the top of my list for the fun factor. Hopefully many people in their Hi Speed Pleasure boats will respect the speed and just enjoy themselves at a respectable speed and safety of their passengers. Racing on the other hand, I feel until the Safety of Canopies can be matched to the speeds the boats are running, cap the speeds and slow the boats down. It certainly would make for a more interesting race when the boats don't get so far stretched out that it looks like you're watching a parade...

Matt and Charlie both excellent points! Let's bring back the fun and do what we can to avoid another tradgey. Pushing the envelope can go to far and in this case I am sorry to say it resulted in the loss of lives.

+1

My personal opinion:

I don't think death increases competitiveness. In fact, the opposite.

The vast majority of competitive events do not require some of the participants to die. Examples include: chess, business, cycling, rowing, swimming, running, basketball, ... I know most readers here don't have a clue how to sail, but yacht racing is in fact way more exciting that powerboat racing: imagine finishing overlapped with someone you've been racing against for 24 hours, the difference between winning and second place being mere feet following hours or even days of putting everything you have out there.

When you might die, you will pull back from the brink. You'll compete well back from the limit because otherwise you'll be dead.

Watching the videos of the crashes that killed, it was clear to me that there was nothing about being the best that lead to those deaths. They really were just out there, they were not truly doing something that will ever make history, that anyone will ever notice if they achieved their goals (save a few seconds on a lap). So dying, while not even being at the leading edge... what a waste of lives. A waste of those families, of friends, of businesses.

Like dying on the freeway driving to work. Just a tragedy, nothing heroic or inspiring or otherwise positive for those of us who remain, including children, spouses, family, friends, business associates, colleagues. Nothing to gain for their ultimate loss.

Matt-

Thanks for publishing this. You had the guts to publish what many of us were thinking, but weren't man enough to admit. I almost pulled the trigger on a cat this fall and I was going to put my power in it. At the end of the day, I would have had a 130+ MPH cat when I've been driving 80-90 MPH V-hulls. Even worse, I would have put my wife (and maybe even kids) in there on some poker runs. I've been in some pretty rough water on runs, and it scares me to think what might have happened.

Unless I have a huge change of heart, I'm going to be happy running my Cig at 70-80 MPH (or less) and waving to the "big boys" as they go by. I just hope I don't ever have to help fish them out of the water someday. We'll see you fast guys at the raft up where all the fun takes place anyway!

The key west races left us very sad and simply put, shocked.
Whilst reading the article and the comments, I agree and disagree with your thoughts. I have both driven and throttled Key west and I can tell you this year was different in many ways. The water looked calm, but it wasnt. It was very difficult to read, it was hard to get the boat set as you normally can around the course. You had to be on your very , and I mean very best game to get it right every lap.
When you come to Key west, it brings something out in you. You push harder than you have all year, the competition level goes up off the charts..... The crowds are lined up down the wall..... the banter from the night before with fellow racers...
It all gives you a dangerous sense of invincibility!!!
What we need to remember is only 1 of the 7 accidents in Key west was at full high speed ( and probably only 135-140 mph).
5 of them were in a turning situation, and the other was a low speed stuff.
One thing you all were correct on: the safety systems of the race boats needs to be elevated. Some teams are already 90% there. EVERYBODY needs to be there!!

I have seen engine data on some of the Big boy Poker runners and whilst they have that 3-4 mile high speed run, most of it is spent at or below 1/2 throttle. So although they will run 180 its not very often.
We will never stop pushing the boundary in anything we do in life, whether it be speed, technology, heck even our cell phones. Its how we function!!
We can ask ourselves never ending questions like:
is it safe to run over 150 in an open boat?
Some will say yes, some no. the argument will never end.

Last night I was at Homestead watching Nascar. I was watching Tony Stewart put on the most amazing show of driving I think we will see in a longtime. However some of the moves he did at 180-190 mph were darn right dangerous!! 6" off the wall at 170 mph in a turn , four wide, in an aluminum shell. Now thats dangerous....... right??

I was driving home with a full car of people, on the turnpike, with 10,000 cars running 75 mph and everyone of them thought they could drive like Tony. I realized how dangerous that was once I got home!!!! phew!

I have been in a cab in NY city sat in the back with no seatbelt at 35 mph....... Ive never felt so endangered in all my life.

Ive been chased down a mountain by an avalanche where i thought was the most calm, relaxing and pristine spot on the planet. That was off the chart dangerous.

I have been thrown out of a race boat in turn one at key west at 75 mph whilst in the lead and listend to 20 other boats fly by me. Way too dangerous.

I have lost friends and family to illness and accidents that should have never happened.

No matter what we do in life its dangerous. Is running 200 mph in an open boat anymore dangerous than crossing the street in any major city?? If you look at the stats, probably not.


But.....If we stop doing what we love and what we thrive for. Life will get boring!!!

For some of you key west will forever change your lives and thoughts on speed. For most of us it will open our eyes, make us respect the water more, love our families a little more, create a safer boating enviroment and then make us want to push the boudary even further!!!

Couldn't have said it better! great post, and Matt i think old age is setting in!!!! maybe you should consider changing the name of your website, maybe cruisingspeedonthewater.com or something like that! :)

LOL! :party-smiley-004:

With all due respect, you need to go back and read what I actually wrote. As I said, I am not telling anyone else to be done. I'm saying I'm done being in boats at extreme speeds. What those speeds are depends on the boat and driver, and to my great good fortune I get to ride with some of the best, but trust me when I tell you that I will err on the conservative side.

At 150 mph, which is a very common speed hit during poker runs, you cover 440 feet in two seconds. Give or take 30 feet, that's a football field and a half. Yes, more often than not, nothing goes wrong. But that's rationalized skydiving logic as in, "Look how many jumps we do without incident compared to those we do without incident." And just as in skydiving, when things go bad in a boat high speed they go really bad."

Car accident statistics make zero sense in comparison. The numbers are too overwhelming. Yes, you have a greater chance dying in automobile at city speeds in a car than you do at high speeds in a boat. And the amount of time you spend in a car at city speeds in exponentially greater.

Your comparison using Tony Stewart doesn't hold for a number of reasons. First, how long do you think it took him to get to that level? How many years of racing, coming up through the ranks, do you think he put in? And while money isn't everything, how much do you think he's getting paid to put those skills—and his life—on the line every time he gets behind the wheel?

But I intentionally pulled the entire discussion out of the offshore racing world with this basic premise: If racers die at poker run speeds with "protective" canopies over their heads, what chance do passengers in open canopy boats have in the same horrible circumstances?

There is no reasonable argument about whether or not running 150 mph in an open canopy boat is dangerous. It is, and if you believe otherwise you're living in denial. I'm not denying anyone the right to make a dangerous choices, but I am suggesting, strongly, that those choices be informed.

Why do you think most (I won't say all because I don't know that) insurance companies won't insure really fast boats? With all due respect what do you know that they don't?

I understand your passion for pushing the limits, wc, I really do. I'm a former extreme sports guys, albeit an aging one (and thank you so much for pointing that out, pstorti:drink:). And I don't know you personally so I won't suggest you change whatever your approach is to risk. But risk management, as insurance agents and NASCAR drivers will tell you, is about making informed choices based on the hard and unromantic facts.

As for speedonthewater.com, it will do just fine with its name as is. As I said, I'll still cover big speed. I just won't do it first person.

Matt, I was not attacking you. I was simply stating that there are dangers in everything we do in life.
As for insurance comapanies... Im not an expert!!!
Racers died at poker run speeds, but not in a poker run scenario!!! Trust me on this one. Comparing a race to a poker run doesnt hold either!
Please dont be offended or upset. I just wanted to add my .02 cents as a fellow racer who has raced at "poker run" speeds in Key west many times.
By the way...... I think you are nuts for skydiving!! Now thats crazier than running at any high speed in any boat!!!!!

I too feel this has been an awfull last couple of weeks, it hit way too close to home, period.

Out of all this sadness and inner thought contemplating, I keep coming back to three main thoughts:

A) What would the participants that were lost, think and how would they want people to feel and react to what happened.

B) What changes can we make that will help the sport move forward and make the boats and occupant more safe,

C) How do we keep the sport itself alive from outside sources that may not understand what is involved. In addition to that, how do we keep our own motivated to move forward and save what we all love best.

The risks we all take, can only be measured against what we are comfortable with. Some are willing to put it all out on the line, others don't. I feel it is up to each person to figure out that line, and no matter what the choice is, we must all respect it. That is as long as it does not effect the people around them adversly. (safety)

I will be the first to admit, I have not figured out all the answers, but the little voices in my head, I hope send me in the right direction...

Hey WC,

Didn't feel at all attacked. I do know where you are coming from. I just wanted to be clear about the point I was trying to make, which, oddly enough, had very little to do with racing, in which guys like you presumably know the risks, and more about high-performance pleasure boating, where we've gotten awfully casual about some serious speeds.

As for skydiving I quit 13 years ago about a month after my daughter was born. (Funny, my son, who was born four years before her, didn't have that affect on me.) I have some great memories from those days and, as you'd expect, some not-so-great ones.

Since it was brought up... isn't skydiving statistically a pretty safe sport? Now, hang-gliding... that's another story. :)

First strictly speaking on the "Pleasure Boat" side of this equation, not the Racing Side.

Most who have the resource to be able to go those speed will not argue with you, and make their decision and bed and sleep in it.

But a lot of people make very broad statements of unenforceable phantom "they shouldn't build..." or "the manufacturers shouldn't..." nature. What they fail to recognize is that demand and the free market makes the realization of these boats possible. If someone wants one they will figure out a way to get one, sorta of like Don Aronow did pushing the envelope building his own.

Most in favor of "criminalizing" these boats made the choice of not getting in that club, what gives them the right to restrict the freedom of another individual to do so?

Also I suspect a lot of them do not really have a choice to be in that club or not... Sort of like saying I would not bang Carol Alt cause she's too tall... Sure but did she ask you to bang her... :drink:

This guy is a lot smarter and explains that concept much better than I can...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCBbosq9-RI&[/YOUTUBE]

The "Racing Side" is another story all together, regulating racing to the level experts talk about here will kill Offshore Boat Racing in the US and simply make it disappear.

My guess is not even three boats in Key West fill the requirements people talk about here. Who would go to Key West for that. Look at how much biatching there is about the Gieco Cat running by itself all year for all the "experts".

Mind you I would probably go to Key West anyway just to kick it around with the EDock crew and all the other mentals hanging there thanks to the Poker Run.






Now "Go Pats"

I had this conversation with someone the other day... The cars now a days are built to be safer than the cars of the 1940's because of advances in technology ... Cars have been tested and crashed to find what works and what doesn't. Unfortunately, Im not sure there is a way to "test" boats to see whats safer and what isn't. I know after one of the crashes, the boat went back to the builder with the instructions "make the canopy bullet proof". They redesigned the canopy and it does appear to be a better but how can they really know? Its not like they can duplicate the conditions, wreck the boat, and see where they are. Hopefully, they will never be in a position to find out :bunny:

I dont know that it is the racing series responsibility to make sure the boats are built to withstand crashes any more than it is the responsibility of a poker run organizer.... but I also dont think that is what Matt is saying. I think the point is, boaters need to look at their boats, or the boats they get in, and understand that in case of a high speed crash, having a lid does not guarantee a good outcome. People tend to become complacent... and complacent is not really a good thing ....

Hi Matt,
I agree with a lot of what you said. Last week was a horrific week. Key west race week is always my favorite week of the year as it is the only time I take 3 days off work and get to do what I love and be around my friends. I honestly feel Key West race week will never have the same feeling.

I will be the first to admit that running the speeds we run is not the smartest thing. I understand and can relate to the feeling you had of "Thank God I'm alive". I think anyone that does any Extreme sport knows that feeling.
To tell you the truth, that may be the feeling that keeps many of us going back to it. Unfortunately sometimes it takes tragedies like this to make you think.

Last year Bill and I agreed to end our Friendly rivalry and stop pushing each other before there was a tragedy. I had a lot of fun and I am grateful none of us had any issues.

Hey Gino,

I hope you didn't feel "called out" on your rivalry with Bill in my commentary. As I said, you guys made it interesting and I, like a lot of people, enjoyed it. I But as I also said, you guys make it interesting on the docks as well. I am glad that you and Bill decided to let it go.

In ending your rivalry last year (I wasn't aware, so thank you) before "there was any tragedy," you reinforce my point. If you and Bill, who have been there and done it, decided it was time to stop pushing the limits, the rest of us probably want to sit up and take notice. What do we know that you don't?

Nothing.

Hope to see both of you in Islamorada in February.

Matt,
Not at all!! You are right, when I first saw the Big Thunder video, I had chills. You never think it can happen and when it does, there is nothing you can do about it.