My understanding is the inner helmet separated from the outer shell. Why that would make a reason to be discussed or be told not to discuss, is way over my pay grade???

Just to clarify, I was NOT at the crash site, just at the BTM pits area on Thur and Fri helping load everything back to go home to MO.

As far as Sue, She is the strongest woman I have ever met... It was amazing how she worked to get everything done and in place, when inside she had to be just miserable.

Same with all the memorials, Many of us were very emotional in our own ways, and she held it together. I hope I can be 1/2 as good of man as she is woman...

Scott,

Thank you for your post as well as your service.

I too have been in a similar situation and was going through what you are going through right now. It will seem like the phone calls and the emails will never stop coming...

I took some advice from counsel that I have to say was the best advice I was ever given. I was told to document my experience and what I saw as soon as possible, while everything was fresh in my mind. I was told to write it down or better yet, send myself an email with all of the details. I am always the 1st to admit my memory is horrible to begin with. As time goes by some details might be forgotten... So now at least I can go back many years later and pull up exactly what I saw because I documented it.

In a different situation, I had all of the images I shot of the incident not for the sake of taking some horrifying images, but for the fact it documented everything and with a time stamp. Those images to this day have not gone public just as the ones I have of BIG THUNDER. These type of images I gather are collected and brought to the manufacturers of canopy boats in hopes they can learn what worked and what didn't work.

So with your thread here, you have documented what you saw and heard.

Just a suggestion like counsel had given me, take some time and send yourself an email of every detail you can possibly remember on what you witnessed during the race week. The day of Big Thunder's crash and anything that occurred the following days there after. Details of who you spoke with ect...

5 or more years from now, you will be glad you did... Should you be called to testify you will have your testimony already prepared. I like the fact of emailing it to yourself as well, because that is proof of when it was actually written.

Best of luck to you.

Thoughts and prayers to all that have been effected by last week's events... :(

WE as in you, me and the rest of the OSO general public. Absolutely the racers and teams can call for changes, but again, that isnt us right now.

Ive been involved in a rescue in KW. I discussed it with the personnel there. Our rescue was fine but it could have went south real quick for me. I talked to those that had the power to make a difference. I think THAT gets things done a whole lot quicker than having people who werent there, dont know, and dont matter to JC arguing about it.

Not trying to shut anybody up ... just tryin to actually get something accomplished. :party-smiley-004:

Penaltybox,

Thanks for your service in KW. You tow a long way down there to help and that deserves alot of credit. I sent you a PM so anyway that I can help please let me know.

Thanks

That is where I think you start to go wrong, and yes it sounds like you are trying to shut folks up from discussing. Who is arguing?

There folks here from all kinds of motorsports, with all kinds of experience including safety......so if someone doesn't want to discuss or read (or maybe even learn) about this topic here, then they shouldn’t participate, just keep things status quo and we’ll all see what happens.

I think all of you should get off Penalty Box's butt, all two of you.. I agree with Nort, this man was just trying to vent, not look for people to tell him what he should or shouldn't do or who to talk to for "real changes" or results, sounds like he tried that. I was at the races, like I am every year for the last 6, with a large group of friends from California. We were a little surprised at the lack of "visible" medical support there. I recall seeing one ambulance in the pit area.

Anyway, you did a great job Penalty Box. It's nice of you to offer your boat and services.

Scotty, Email sent. Call me bud.

Racegirl, your intent may have been different, but to me, your post did come across as to not to discuss his actions here but to take them up with SBI. He did go to them directly, additionally Scott has not mentioned anyone from SBI reaching out to him asking for a debrief for improvements. Even after any successful crash free race, I can't believe that after action reports/debriefs don't occur to better improve the event, let alone one with fatalities.

I concur with Nort, this is the place to discuss this, not only does this site have members directly associated with SBI, but numerous other race organizations that may benefit from the info. Going to them directly may not be enough, however, if enough people discuss the problem, it is likely to get remedied. If this was a local neighborhood poker forum, I could definitely see your point.

As much as I respect Pat D for what she does and like Dawn, I have to disagree with both your comments. SBI cannot be allowed to "investigate" this themselves and the Coast Guard is really not qualified to know what they are investigating. During one of our races we had a horrendous crash that thankfully did not result in a fatality (at the same time another boat was over on the opposite side of the course). The follow up investigation from the CG was several phone calls but very little else. No one even inspected the boat. Since these accidents resulted in deaths I'm sure more investigation will be done but they haven't even locked down the boats so how much could really be done? There are so many things that are "supposed" to be taken care of during tech inspection that may have contributed to at least one of the deaths and maybe all of them. Who is going to go over the boats and find out if they were teched? Who is going to check the safety systems like the escape hatches, air system, and helmets? (The BTM helmets were not the only ones that SBI was interested in.) After that who is going to compare the number of safety, medical, and patrol boats against other comparable sites? Who is going to look into the qualifications of the safety people on the water? Who will assess race com procedures, volunteer operations, helicopter ops, and even the communication between the various law enforcement, safety, and USCG personnel? There are so many questions and someone without a huge financial interest should be looking for the answers. Unless the racers consider themselves expendable then they should want these questions answered also.

Wow!

:kiss:

I was there, I traveled with the team, and worked for Bob on and off for 22 years, I did not see his helmet, I do however recall when I purchased my first offshore helmets they were designed to seaperate as mentioned above, so in the event of a stuff it would not " bucket" and seaperate the head/brain from the vertebrea in the the event of a forward stuff, and in this case the force of the water acted in the same manner. I did however see JT's helmet and it showed no significant damage. I also have been hearing rumors of stuck throttles and malfunctioning equipment. The drives were straight and trimmed at a nuetral setting, all four throttles and linkage assemblies worked properly after the accident. I have also heard rumors of Bob having a stroke or heart attack prior to the accident, I have a close up photo that shows both men inside the cockpit and the speedo on the dash ( so yes its close, and no I could not read the speed ) both were upright and concious when they passed me, which was about 1000 feet prior to the accident. I was in the pits and crane area immediatly and the rumors were from one end of the spectrum to the other, the emotional roller coaster was crazy, in the end I spoke with someone from the hospital, she told me neither man suffered, and that is good enough for me.

Sorry all ... I guess I misunderstood the thread starters intentions. I didn't get that he wanted to vent, I thought he actually wanted something to happen. Talking to somebody at SBI didnt mean he talked to the right person at SBI. Just tryin to help steer him to somebody there to talk to that would listen and hear his concerns. Been there, done that.

I agree with Ted whole heartedly. We can talk about this all day long but until SOMEBODY actually DOES something, nothing is going to change... and who is qualified, who has the ability, and who wants a change bad enough to stand up and make it happen.

As I said before, God bless you Penaltybox. I hope you find closure.

Excellent questions and points Ted. Someone should be asking this questions and looking deeper. We'll all have to see what comes next. It won't go away.....

Wow.....you just don't get it do you. This is a discussion. Bring up points, discuss and compare facts, suggest improvements........enough guys died the other week. Talk to the right person at SBI? He was part of the rescue team!!!!! If there is no communication path to listen to simple suggestions from a rescue team member (especially after the tragedy), there are bigger problems than what already stinks about this whole situation. When should we start discussing problems and ways to improve things? After 1 more death, 2 more, 5 more deaths?

Happy Thanksgiving to you! It will suck for those three families.

+1!

WOW !Ya might be Gettin a little rough:angry-smiley-038: on the lady

I get the need for conversation and dont discount it at all but I also get that the power of OSO comes from its members DOING. As Ive stated several times now, I just wanted to help the thread starter get some closure by hooking him up with the same people that helped me. Thats all. Action. This guy. This situation.

Ill leave you guys to the conversation ..... Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Scotty, Thank You to you and everyone that always help out, you all have no idea how much we love to see you guy's out there protecting us while we race, (Well when I did raced) But THANK YOU ALL for being there! Augie

It's my understanding the only agency in the State of Florida with authority under Florida Statutes to investigate boat accidents is

http://myfwc.com/about/inside-fwc/le/

Cevert is correct...

have they entered the picture yet?

+1 it has always been a great comfort having the volunteers that we have. Turn boats, med boats, divers, safety staff, etc all volunteers coming out to look after us while we do what we do. They put in a great deal of effort.


As i said before there are several ways to interpret the events and i hope it all translates into something learned on all sides. I have thought about this daily and still am at a loss for words. God bless Bob, Jeff and Joey they will be missed.

+1000

Well said, Dave.

Clearly this is a very emotional issue and we can all appreciate that to the fullest. It's nice to see that this thread has been handled ammicably and respectfully while some pertinent, albeit touchy, subject matter is discussed.

While we're discussing this and focusing on the educational aspects in leaning towards lessons learned, may i inquire into the circumstances on Friday's racing? What was changed, if anything? Were there emergency crews at ready? How was the response times? Better, worse, indifferent?

Penaltybox thank you for your post and what you did.Godbless you and all the safety people.

A thought I had that might help in the future.To see how far is the closest Trauma center from a race course, determine if a ambulance ride or if a emergency medical helicopter is needed or at least on standby during a race,I am guessing its probably no possible to have one on site at a race just in case? I'm not pertaining anything about this race,just race sites in general.

Also what if a boat catches on fire,racers inside are unconscious,Is there a fire boat with a fireman in fire suits.

I know when we drag race at the track,we can not even get on the track until the ambulance is on site.Most don't have adequate fire suppression either.
Rob

And forgive me for asking, but theres something else thats been bothering me...

1. How did Joey, Jeff, and Bob, actually die? Injuries due to the accident, drowning? Failure to get medical attention?

2. Why are there no photographs or video of the Friday accident? Does anyone out there have any, and if so, why not post them?

First to the OP- thank you for supporting a sport you love by taking time to volunteer!

Now I have to say- I am completely blown away by the story of what happened and the lack of communication between the race promoters and the safety crews. As someone who has has had the luck to work several NASCAR races on a tow truck, it is embarrasing at the difference between what we went through and what these safety volunteers went through. Before we were even allowed to get close to the tow truck we had a several hour meeting laying out every possible thing that could happen, what we should, and shouldn't, do if something did happen, a full walkthrough of all medical and safety facilities, as well as meeting all the medical personnel. They stressed that we try to learn every possible job, not just the one we were there for, so in the event of tragedy we would at least have an idea of what to do. I guess this has all come about after Dale Earnharts fatal crash, and it was much less training before that fatal day. Hopefully SBI learns from this tragedy and is better prepared for something like this in the future.
God bless all of the families!

Running an event and keeping it safe is a two way street racers must comply!Sad what happened in both accidents lets see what the experts think after reviewing the amount of medical staff availible that day?They have to copy races with the least accidents race plan!

Sorry but you lost me on this post- Racers have to comply?? What, promise to not crash? What they should do is all say they won't race anymore until a practical, simple, and complete safety plan is worked out where both the medical personnel and racers feel confident in the coverage and plan. It may not have saved anybody this time, but it will in the long run. I believe they have some of the plan down correctly, they had a rescue diver to the boat in less than a minute and that is pretty spectacular. They need to work on communication so everybody knows where to go, under which circumstances, and that they have additional trauma staff available. PA's are great, but there should be at least one trauma doctor familiar with the type of injuries he might encounter within 5 minutes of anywhere on the course, even if he is in one of the coptors.

^^^ Ditto ^^^

Trial on the water?

Penaltybox: Hi - Sue asked that i contact you and I dont know how to pm you on here or dont have the right membership to do so - can you contact me? im easy to find - agles @ capecoralhome dot com. I didnt know your full name and again i cannot read profiles to get your name due to my memberhsip status. thanks!

If you do not get a response I can PM or Email him letting him know you would like to be contacted.

What's the latest on this? Ted.....did you get any feedback from your post?

thanks @ knot 4 me - please do - tell him its nothing heavy or legal concerns - so nothing to be worried about - just a quick question - sue would be grateful - by the way central il - we should probably know you. (were orig from peoria area)

Nope, I have not. I hope someone is moving forward with some kind of investigation and that it can be independent and thorough. More lives may depend on it.

I felt that the races lost some appeal after this years events. From the first post it sounds like the leader "John Carbonell" had more concern for carrying on the races then putting proper safety first. Maybe time for a different leader.

You know my mom and dad well (Tom and Linda). I last saw Jim a few years back at Dog Days.

Edit: I sent both a PM and email. Hopefully you are contacted soon.

@knot 4 me - Yes remember seeing/meeting you there! Hope to see ya next time we are at the lake - hopefully this summer!