Its over..... "The common man"
02-21-2012, 09:25 PM
#12
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I have to agree after attending the show for the first time. It was awesome to see all the hardware but the two "smaller" performance boats I looked at, Huslter and Outerlimts 29's, both start at 150K, closer to 200K with bigger power and options. The rest of the really cool stuff was between 300K and a mil. I guess I will keep my old tub for a few more years.
02-21-2012, 10:51 PM
#14
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What Happened to "JOE BOATER"?
Some OSO posters and participants could actually be somewhat responsible for this out of sight new boat pricing and boat builder marketing and offerings.
How, because for years many have come on this very forum and wowed, exclaoimed and talked up all these over the top MTI"S Skaters, OUterlimits, Nortechs, and such to a point that many of the performance boat builders think in a funny way this is all their potential customers want, covet and are planning to step up into! Made top speeds and horsepower so important, out of this world paint and gel coat scences, electronic equipment, unbelievable interior systems and such got all the raves . coverage and guess what, the builders read here, listen to the comments and somewhat think this is all the market really wants in performance boating.
I have been saying right here on OSO for years that his industry was not building a product both boats engines, drive systems and accessories for "JOE BOATER" the average guy who really built this industry and made it go.
Well now a lot of boaters here on OSO and in the sport are being offered what they spent so much talk and print wowing over and guesss what -THEY CAN'T AFFORD THIS VERY PRODUCT! THEY SENT A MISGUDED MESSAGE!
change your message to the industry, let builders and such know you want these somewhat affordable entry and "JOE BOATER" boats and specs. they will quickly get the message and maybe even see the narrow market they themselves have helped create!
JMO
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar One of the JOE BOATER ENGINE GUYS!
How, because for years many have come on this very forum and wowed, exclaoimed and talked up all these over the top MTI"S Skaters, OUterlimits, Nortechs, and such to a point that many of the performance boat builders think in a funny way this is all their potential customers want, covet and are planning to step up into! Made top speeds and horsepower so important, out of this world paint and gel coat scences, electronic equipment, unbelievable interior systems and such got all the raves . coverage and guess what, the builders read here, listen to the comments and somewhat think this is all the market really wants in performance boating.
I have been saying right here on OSO for years that his industry was not building a product both boats engines, drive systems and accessories for "JOE BOATER" the average guy who really built this industry and made it go.
Well now a lot of boaters here on OSO and in the sport are being offered what they spent so much talk and print wowing over and guesss what -THEY CAN'T AFFORD THIS VERY PRODUCT! THEY SENT A MISGUDED MESSAGE!
change your message to the industry, let builders and such know you want these somewhat affordable entry and "JOE BOATER" boats and specs. they will quickly get the message and maybe even see the narrow market they themselves have helped create!
JMO
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar One of the JOE BOATER ENGINE GUYS!
Last edited by Raylar; 02-21-2012 at 10:55 PM. Reason: spelling errors
02-21-2012, 11:20 PM
#15
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Well I don't think the common man goes to Miami to buy a common boat. That's like going to Barrett jackson to buy a daily driver.
I own a couple of companies that tend to work with better off buyers (not boats). We make things that will have profit in them and have a viable market. We look at who is actually buying our product not just looking. Out of habit I looked at the person who started this thread's personal boat. When the last year formula put that boat out? Did he buy it new? I am gonna guess no. He complains about prices and also mentioned the Baja. Did he get one of those or a like boat? Was he ever part of the demand?
We joke about the guy that comes in and says "dam those are a lot more than they were 10years ago". The go buy used and come back in a few more years and says the same thing. Well there are a lot of factors but that person was never a factor in any of it.
You have to be in the market to have the market respond.
Our kind of boats were never for the common man. Not new when they were produced. What common man buys a toy that does what these thnings do? It's a luxury. Always has been always will be. We don't need one to get to work.
Until the economy returns where more wealth is out there tem things will stay this way. People like me will make things for those stepping up to the plate with cash. Simple as that.
One of my companies make a product that we all use and the higher end of that line is doing better than ever.
Also don't forget there are guys out there still building cheaper boats. Phantom, velocity, and others.
I know this is all over the place and I hope I don't sound like a jerk to the guy who started this but we make what people want. It's that simple. If someone went out an made a bunch of 50k boats who would buy them? Not any of us when you see what's for sale used.
Some guys that are complaining probably have never bought new so someone else made the initial investment.
I own a couple of companies that tend to work with better off buyers (not boats). We make things that will have profit in them and have a viable market. We look at who is actually buying our product not just looking. Out of habit I looked at the person who started this thread's personal boat. When the last year formula put that boat out? Did he buy it new? I am gonna guess no. He complains about prices and also mentioned the Baja. Did he get one of those or a like boat? Was he ever part of the demand?
We joke about the guy that comes in and says "dam those are a lot more than they were 10years ago". The go buy used and come back in a few more years and says the same thing. Well there are a lot of factors but that person was never a factor in any of it.
You have to be in the market to have the market respond.
Our kind of boats were never for the common man. Not new when they were produced. What common man buys a toy that does what these thnings do? It's a luxury. Always has been always will be. We don't need one to get to work.
Until the economy returns where more wealth is out there tem things will stay this way. People like me will make things for those stepping up to the plate with cash. Simple as that.
One of my companies make a product that we all use and the higher end of that line is doing better than ever.
Also don't forget there are guys out there still building cheaper boats. Phantom, velocity, and others.
I know this is all over the place and I hope I don't sound like a jerk to the guy who started this but we make what people want. It's that simple. If someone went out an made a bunch of 50k boats who would buy them? Not any of us when you see what's for sale used.
Some guys that are complaining probably have never bought new so someone else made the initial investment.
02-21-2012, 11:28 PM
#16
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This is an awesome thread. very real!
Now that we agree on the issues and how unaffordable boats have become, what numbers can we tell the OL's, Skaters, Cigs, what price point they need to be at to allow the common man the joys of boatings' past? Maybe they need to introduce an entry-entry level boat.
Would a 80K turnkey deep-V return boating to what it once was, back to the common boater? How about a turnkey 70K single cat or a 99K twin cat?
If we're not too picky, I think that there are still some companies out there that can meet those numbers?
off the top of my head:
superboat - Y2K 30 feet with non-race engine
predator - C30 twin 200HP Pro XS
activator - ??? is Mark still building 27's?
kryptonite - special order only
Now that we agree on the issues and how unaffordable boats have become, what numbers can we tell the OL's, Skaters, Cigs, what price point they need to be at to allow the common man the joys of boatings' past? Maybe they need to introduce an entry-entry level boat.
Would a 80K turnkey deep-V return boating to what it once was, back to the common boater? How about a turnkey 70K single cat or a 99K twin cat?
If we're not too picky, I think that there are still some companies out there that can meet those numbers?
off the top of my head:
superboat - Y2K 30 feet with non-race engine
predator - C30 twin 200HP Pro XS
activator - ??? is Mark still building 27's?
kryptonite - special order only
Last edited by noli; 02-21-2012 at 11:32 PM.
02-21-2012, 11:53 PM
#17
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Ray is right. The delusions of grandeur are hilarious. The big guns get the majority of the press but who really buys?
Of the guys that buy- how many actually maintain?
Boats (at least like the ones we ride around in and covet) have never been a common man thing.
They always have, and always will be expensive, but have been pushed over the top with the housing boom, and ridiculous standards, insurance for manufacturers and regulatory agencies etc etc.....
It isnt gone- yet, but its teetering.
There are a handfull of West Coast builders that have sweet spots in the 21-32 foot range that still build high quality product at a quasi affordable price - a chance to own something unique.
Lavey, Nordic, Hallett, Howard, Advantage, Ultra- all build very nice products and would love your business.
Uncle Dave
Of the guys that buy- how many actually maintain?
Boats (at least like the ones we ride around in and covet) have never been a common man thing.
They always have, and always will be expensive, but have been pushed over the top with the housing boom, and ridiculous standards, insurance for manufacturers and regulatory agencies etc etc.....
It isnt gone- yet, but its teetering.
There are a handfull of West Coast builders that have sweet spots in the 21-32 foot range that still build high quality product at a quasi affordable price - a chance to own something unique.
Lavey, Nordic, Hallett, Howard, Advantage, Ultra- all build very nice products and would love your business.
Uncle Dave
02-22-2012, 05:51 AM
#19
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They really need to call it something other than "center console" IMO, Center consoles are fishing machines! and Yellowfin is #1 in that department!
02-22-2012, 06:03 AM
#20
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I got into boating from the lake side and not the ocean. I was amazed through the 90's the increased size of the boats. At Lake Cumberland, Cigarettes and Scarabs of the day were very rare. Owners were assumed to be anything but a common man. The "common man" powerboater at lake Cumberland had a jet, Hydrostream outboard, or a Sea Ray with a hot engine. I went back and looked at some of my 1980's Powerboat and Hot Boat Magazines. Back then 35 footers were rare, power was far from exotic, contruction material schedules did not include anything high tech.
I was working in Somerset 1 day a week when Randy Hartmann started Lake Cumberland Marine in half of a used car lot. He started off as a Nautique dealer only and then added Sea Doo. With Sea Doo, he had a lot of sales. One day when I dropped by to talk to him, he asked me what I thought about Fountain. My opinion to him was they're a great boat but I don't know how many your going to sell here. He said I think I'm going to order a couple and see. This was at the time of the big
stock market boom. A couple years later as he was selling lots of boats, he remarked he didn't know where all the people with enough money were coming from to buy the boats.
He was a very hard worker and grew to add most of the exclusive lines of powerboats.
I'd say would agree that the economic boom of the time gave people a historic amount of disposable income.
Now the new Nautique 20 foot ski not wakeboard boat I bought had a retail of 74K. That doesn't make the OL 29 seem way out of line.
Bottom line is now I think we're moving back to the lifestyle pre boom and it's hard to accept and is hard for lots of good people in the marine industry.
I'm going to poweboat til I die even if it's on a much smaller scale.
I was working in Somerset 1 day a week when Randy Hartmann started Lake Cumberland Marine in half of a used car lot. He started off as a Nautique dealer only and then added Sea Doo. With Sea Doo, he had a lot of sales. One day when I dropped by to talk to him, he asked me what I thought about Fountain. My opinion to him was they're a great boat but I don't know how many your going to sell here. He said I think I'm going to order a couple and see. This was at the time of the big
stock market boom. A couple years later as he was selling lots of boats, he remarked he didn't know where all the people with enough money were coming from to buy the boats.
He was a very hard worker and grew to add most of the exclusive lines of powerboats.
I'd say would agree that the economic boom of the time gave people a historic amount of disposable income.
Now the new Nautique 20 foot ski not wakeboard boat I bought had a retail of 74K. That doesn't make the OL 29 seem way out of line.
Bottom line is now I think we're moving back to the lifestyle pre boom and it's hard to accept and is hard for lots of good people in the marine industry.
I'm going to poweboat til I die even if it's on a much smaller scale.
