Did the fuel pump cause my engine failure?
03-14-2012, 11:03 PM
#21
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in my cat,if my water temp,measured in the head,goes over 140 at wot,and water pressure is less than 9 or 10 lbs,i know it is time to replace the impeller in the water pump.if the water temp was north of 250,detonation was looking for a place to happen,now throw in the possibility of a lean condition from a fuel pump that was posibally not quite big enough for the application,im suprised it didn,t hole some pistons.also,with an engine that made 600+ on the dyno,larger fuel pickup,fuel lines,and fuel filter head,would need to be larger than stock.in my opinion,if the fuel pump was big enough for the first 19 hrs,it was not the only thing that caused the failure.i would have been woried about the water temp way before 300 deg ,but thats just me!
03-15-2012, 06:45 PM
#22
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COLOR="SeaGreen"]The dyno sheet provided by the builder states; peak torque at 4900 rpm – 611.4 HP - 654 torque – fuel pressure 4.967 Psi; peak HP at 5900 rpm – 670.3 HP – 595.5 torque – fuel pressure 5.009 Psi.[/COLOR] See not red.
Did the builder run the pump in question? Or add it later?
If he ran the pump and the pump is supposed to run 8lbs internally regulated -- why was the motor sold with a pump putting out less then 5lbs? Per the dyno sheet.
The builder supplied the part number. Not me. Instead of questioning my 8 post or red writing - look the pump up in Jeg's, Summit or go to Federal Mogul web site and check for yourself. Better yet instead of questioning my integrity - give me your e-mail and I will forward the response from Federal Mogul. Plus- did you supply the customer a copy of the test document? No. You supplied a hand typed (IN BLACK) response. Talking about calling the "kettle black" or in this case red". Post the original test document. Supply the document to the customer and the fuel pump in question.
Are my other calculations wrong? If so correct me. I am very happy to learn from anybody who is smarter than I am- which you have obviously indicated you are. (on more than one occasion)
The hole in the head - is a big question...
I put the boat on the trailer, pulled all the plugs, found water coming out of the spark plug holes, pumped the water out and oiled the cylinders.See not red.
Water coming out of the head when he pulled spark plugs. If the motor was dry and running 300deg+ - why is there water in the cylinders? 300deg a long run- Blue headers? Cracked deck? Did Rudy find any water problems? Also - you know that you can't measure water over 212deg. Since I know you are all knowing and not ever in error I will at least share with others why you can not. At 212degF water turns to vapor. Try it on the stove boil water to your hearts content the thermometer will never exceed 212deg F. (Works with baggies along with styrofoam cups also if your careful). Water in the chambers, 300deg of vapor temperature. One hole in the head allowing chamber heat to quickly raise temperatures...
Just how do heat tabs work on an engine that is lean? Do you know for a fact? Have you tested and documented that a heat tab will not fail if an engine is run lean for long periods? If you have not- then you actually do not know. Information is only as good as the testing and documentation.
In the end you were not there. More witnesses exist on the side of the customer by far then with the builder. Oh 19hrs on the motor- I believe the builder told the customer to take it easy for the first 20hrs.... Correct me if I am wrong.
In the end the dyno docs indicate a poorly performing device. It was sent anyways. Its kind of like that insurance commercial where they are sitting in a overturned car and the guy says "look I saved the coffee". Pump or hole in the head. The builder potentially started a cascade.
Did the builder run the pump in question? Or add it later?
If he ran the pump and the pump is supposed to run 8lbs internally regulated -- why was the motor sold with a pump putting out less then 5lbs? Per the dyno sheet.
The builder supplied the part number. Not me. Instead of questioning my 8 post or red writing - look the pump up in Jeg's, Summit or go to Federal Mogul web site and check for yourself. Better yet instead of questioning my integrity - give me your e-mail and I will forward the response from Federal Mogul. Plus- did you supply the customer a copy of the test document? No. You supplied a hand typed (IN BLACK) response. Talking about calling the "kettle black" or in this case red". Post the original test document. Supply the document to the customer and the fuel pump in question.
Are my other calculations wrong? If so correct me. I am very happy to learn from anybody who is smarter than I am- which you have obviously indicated you are. (on more than one occasion)
The hole in the head - is a big question...
I put the boat on the trailer, pulled all the plugs, found water coming out of the spark plug holes, pumped the water out and oiled the cylinders.See not red.
Water coming out of the head when he pulled spark plugs. If the motor was dry and running 300deg+ - why is there water in the cylinders? 300deg a long run- Blue headers? Cracked deck? Did Rudy find any water problems? Also - you know that you can't measure water over 212deg. Since I know you are all knowing and not ever in error I will at least share with others why you can not. At 212degF water turns to vapor. Try it on the stove boil water to your hearts content the thermometer will never exceed 212deg F. (Works with baggies along with styrofoam cups also if your careful). Water in the chambers, 300deg of vapor temperature. One hole in the head allowing chamber heat to quickly raise temperatures...
Just how do heat tabs work on an engine that is lean? Do you know for a fact? Have you tested and documented that a heat tab will not fail if an engine is run lean for long periods? If you have not- then you actually do not know. Information is only as good as the testing and documentation.
In the end you were not there. More witnesses exist on the side of the customer by far then with the builder. Oh 19hrs on the motor- I believe the builder told the customer to take it easy for the first 20hrs.... Correct me if I am wrong.
In the end the dyno docs indicate a poorly performing device. It was sent anyways. Its kind of like that insurance commercial where they are sitting in a overturned car and the guy says "look I saved the coffee". Pump or hole in the head. The builder potentially started a cascade.
03-16-2012, 07:55 AM
#23
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Water only boils at 212 degrees F at standard atmospheric pressure (14.7 psia). If you were running a thermostat or at an elevated water pressure this will increase your boiling point. I'm going to stay out of the argument about if this was the correct pump or not, (because I normally run larger volume pumps) but I think there were other factors present that caused the failure.
03-17-2012, 05:33 PM
#24
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Yes, it is an ATECO engine. It ran perfectly in the Fall of 2009. Per Steve, he was running at 87.5 miles per hour. Towards the end of June of 2010, Steve called to say the engine had failed while running at WOT and he saw that the water temperature gauge was buried, which would indicate a temperature of greater than 300 degrees.
While on the phone with ATECO, Steve asked if it was safe to try and restart the engine since he had sat for over an hour to let it cool. Our tech listened as he cranked the engine and it turned over, but the sound indicated that there was a bad cylinder and he would need to be towed in.
We instructed Steve to take the engine to Rudy for inspection and evaluation since he is in the same area. Rudy later told me that all 4 heat tabs were melted, which means the engine had reached over 220 degrees for a sustained period of time. In order for that to happen, the engine had to be run dry of the necessary water to keep it cool, allowing the combustion heat to melt a hole in the cylinder head.
After later learning of the hole in the cylinder head (which would have allowed water to flood in the engine if there had been any at the time it failed) leads us to believe that the lack of water at the time of failure allowed the engine to turn over and not be hydrostatically locked.
Going back to the fuel pump issue, Rudy informed me that he told the installing mechanic to change the fuel lines at the time of installation and it was not done. He then told him a second time, yet they were not changed. Rudy ended up having to change the fuel lines. That information came directly from Rudy.
Clearly we all understand that an engine does not put out it’s maximum hp at all rpm’s. Fuel requirements ramp up as rpm’s increase and so does the flow of the pump, in order to meet the demands of the engine. So let’s make sure we’re comparing “apples to apples” when we’re discussing fuel demands of an engine.
The fuel pump used on this engine was tested at 1800rpm’s and was found to deliver 60.1 gph. I don’t know where the information on this thread is coming from and I don’t know that I would automatically trust it just because it’s written in red. However, I do know that the test results provided by Federal-Mogul’s Product Analysis Department in St. Louis have indicated that the pump in question was in proper working order and has been confirmed to be the proper pump for Steve’s engine.
The Carter M7901G (formerly M61045) is a very good fuel pump and has been used in a wide variety of marine applications without issue, as also indicated on Offshoreonly.
While on the phone with ATECO, Steve asked if it was safe to try and restart the engine since he had sat for over an hour to let it cool. Our tech listened as he cranked the engine and it turned over, but the sound indicated that there was a bad cylinder and he would need to be towed in.
We instructed Steve to take the engine to Rudy for inspection and evaluation since he is in the same area. Rudy later told me that all 4 heat tabs were melted, which means the engine had reached over 220 degrees for a sustained period of time. In order for that to happen, the engine had to be run dry of the necessary water to keep it cool, allowing the combustion heat to melt a hole in the cylinder head.
After later learning of the hole in the cylinder head (which would have allowed water to flood in the engine if there had been any at the time it failed) leads us to believe that the lack of water at the time of failure allowed the engine to turn over and not be hydrostatically locked.
Going back to the fuel pump issue, Rudy informed me that he told the installing mechanic to change the fuel lines at the time of installation and it was not done. He then told him a second time, yet they were not changed. Rudy ended up having to change the fuel lines. That information came directly from Rudy.
Clearly we all understand that an engine does not put out it’s maximum hp at all rpm’s. Fuel requirements ramp up as rpm’s increase and so does the flow of the pump, in order to meet the demands of the engine. So let’s make sure we’re comparing “apples to apples” when we’re discussing fuel demands of an engine.
The fuel pump used on this engine was tested at 1800rpm’s and was found to deliver 60.1 gph. I don’t know where the information on this thread is coming from and I don’t know that I would automatically trust it just because it’s written in red. However, I do know that the test results provided by Federal-Mogul’s Product Analysis Department in St. Louis have indicated that the pump in question was in proper working order and has been confirmed to be the proper pump for Steve’s engine.
The Carter M7901G (formerly M61045) is a very good fuel pump and has been used in a wide variety of marine applications without issue, as also indicated on Offshoreonly.
The engine did run great all of the 8 hours it was run in the fall of 2009. Of course the engine was not run at WOT until the 2010 boating season. I checked the water temp gauge today and it only goes up to 240 degrees. I checked with Rudy and he said he had not told the installer to upgrade the fuel lines.
Even saying the pump put out 60 gallons per hour that was just the minimal requirement for my engine. It was stated earlier in this thread that the norm is to have a pump that is 130% of the minimum, so at 130% that means it should been a pump capable of 78 gallons per hour. Maybe the Carter M61045 has performed well on many marine application but it did not perform well or meet the 130% requirements on my engine.
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03-17-2012, 09:29 PM
#29
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It was not easy. Starting in 2010 I did run it up for very short bursts. The problem happened when running WOT for about, and I am guessing, 2 miles.
I now can run WOT as long as conditions permit or slow down to not use so much fuel. I did spend a lot of time with Rudy as he tore the engine down. The first thing he did check was the water pump and it was fine. I learn quite a lot from Rudy. Great engine builder and a nice guy.
I now can run WOT as long as conditions permit or slow down to not use so much fuel. I did spend a lot of time with Rudy as he tore the engine down. The first thing he did check was the water pump and it was fine. I learn quite a lot from Rudy. Great engine builder and a nice guy.
03-18-2012, 04:13 PM
#30
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ready to hear the end of this...
