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US Appeals Court rules Pledge of Allegience Unconstitutional

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Old 06-29-2002, 11:31 AM
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My final thoughts on the subject.....In a last ditch effort to try and stop the dissinformation that is being spread about our founding fathers....

The words.."in god we trust" were not cocsistently on our coins untill 1956 , two years after "under god" was added to the pledge..

The treaty of Tripoli , Passed by the US senate in 1797 , read in part "THE GOVERNMENT OF THE U.S.A. IS NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION". The treaty was written during the Washington Administration , And sent to the senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud , and each senetor recieved a written copy . This was the 339 time that a recorded vote was required by the senate , But only the THIRD time there was a UNANIMOUS VOTE..It was printed in the newspapers and there was no public outcry..

The missinformation that you guys are spreding is damageing to the truth behind our own American history..No matter what you believe you cannot change history , The early presidents were generally Deists or Unitarians , believing in some form of personal providence but rejecting the divinity of jesus and the absurdities of the old and new testaments...

For sake of history lets get it right guys...
Old 06-29-2002, 02:13 PM
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SC and cat...I hate to tell you this but you have fallen for revisonist history...When you stand for nothing, you fall for anything...

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

The liberties we talk about defending today were established by men who took their conceptions of man from the great central religious tradition of Western civilization [Christianity], and the liberties we inherit can almost certainly not survive the abandonment of that tradition. The decay of decency in the modern age, the rebellion against law and good faith, the treatment of human beings as things, as mere instruments of power and ambition, is without a doubt the consequence of the decay of the belief in man as someone more than an animal animated by highly conditioned reflexes and chemical reactions. For unless man is something more than that, he has no rights that anyone is bound to respect, and there are no limitations upon his conduct which he is bound to obey. This is the forgotten foundation of democracy.
[James Reston, "Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still?" The New York Times, April 2, 1969]

The Constitution is not devoid of Christian references. For example, the Constitution acknowledges Sunday as a day of rest: "If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law. . ." (Article I, section 7). Moreover, there is a direct reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in the Constitution: "DONE in convention by the unanimous consent of the States present, the seventeenth of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our Names."

It was never the purpose of the Constitution to give religious content to the nation, rather, the Constitution was an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated.

In response to a request that all reference to religion be removed from government, the House Judiciary Committee Report March 3, 1854 said:
"Had the people, during the Revolution, had any suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, the Revolution would have been strangled in the cradle. At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the Amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, not any one sect. In this age there can be no substitute for Christianity. That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. The great vital and conservative element in our system is the doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

John Quincy Adams, sixth president of the United States, said:
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."


From Christopher Columbus' Book of Prophecies:
"It was the Lord who put into my mind-I could feel His hand upon me . . ..All who heard of my project rejected it with laughter, ridiculing me...There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit, because he comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures...For the execution of the journey. . . did not make use of intelligence, mathematics, or maps. It is simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied.. .No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Savior, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His Holy service. ..the fact that the Gospel must still be preached to so many lands in such a short time-this is what convinces me."

The Mayflower Compact, from William Bradford's "History of Plymouth Plantation":
"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign lord King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, king, defender of the faith, etc., having undertaken for the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith, and the honor of our king and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof do enact, constitute and frame such just and eclual laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the reign of our sovereign lord King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth and of Scotland, the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

From the "First Charter of Virginia:"
"We, greatly commending and graciously accepting of their desires for the furtherance of so noble a work, which may, by the providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the glory of His Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian religion to such people, as yet live in darkness and miserable ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God, and may in time...."

Old 06-29-2002, 02:16 PM
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Various Colony Declarations
New England
"The synod of the New England churches met at Cambridge, Mass, Sept 30, 1648, and defined the nature of civil government, the functions of the civil magistrate, and the duties of the citizens, as follows:
I. God, the Supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates to be under him, over the people, and for his own glory and the public good; and to this end hath armed them with the power of the sword for the defense and encouragement of them that do well, and for the punishment of evil-doers.
II. It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of magistrate when called thereunto. In the management whereof, as they ought especially to maintain piety, justice, and peace, according to the wholesome laws of the Commonwealth, so for that end they may lawfully now, under the New Testament, wage war upon just and necessary occasions.
III. They who, upon pretense of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercises of it, resist the ordinances of God,. . .may be called to account and proceeded against by the censure of the church and by the power of the civil magistrate.
IV. It is the duty of the people to pray for magistrates, to honor their persons, to pay them tribute and other dues, to obey their lawful commands, and to be subject to their authority for conscience's sake."

"In the charter granted to Massachusetts, in 1640, by Charles I., the Colonies are enjoined by 'their good life and orderly conversation to win and invite the natives of the country to a knowledge of the only true God and Savior of mankind, and the Christian faith which, in our royal intention and adventurer's free possession, is the principal end of this plantation"'

"In Connecticut the first organization of civil society and government was made, in 1639, at Quinipiack, now the beautiful city of New Haven...A constitution was formed, which was characterized as 'the first example of a written constitution; as a distinct organic act, constituting a government and defining its powers."' Listed below are some of the articles which made up the constitution of Connecticut:
I. That the Scriptures hold forth a perfect rule for the direction and government of all men in all duties which they are to perform to God and men, as well in families and commonwealths as in matters of the church.
II. That as in matters which concerned the gathering and ordering of a church, so likewise in all public offices which concern civil order,-as the choice of magistrates and officers, making and repealing laws, dividing allotments of inheritance, and all things of like nature,-they would all be governed by those rules which the Scripture held forth to them.
III. That all those who had desired to be received free planters had settled in the plantation with a purpose, resolution, and desire that they might be admitted into church fellowship according to Christ.
IV. That all the free planters held themselves bound to establish such civil order as might best conduce to the securing of the purity and peace of the ordinance to themselves, and their posterity according to God.'
"The governor was then charged by the Rev. Mr. Davenport, in the most solemn manner, as to his duties, from Deut. i. 16, 17:-'And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. Ye shall not respect persons in judgment, but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it'. The General Court, established under this constitution, ordered,-'That God's word should be the only rule for ordering the affairs of government in this commonwealth"'.

New Hampshire
"In 1679, NEW HAMPSHIRE, was separated from Massachusetts and organized as an independent province. The colonists, having been so long a part of the Christian commonwealth of Massachusetts, constituted their institutions on the same Christian basis. Its legislature was Christian, and the colony greatly prospered and increased in population".

"The first legislative act, December, 1682, "announced the ends of a true civil government. 'Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and end of government, and, therefore, government in itself is a venerable ordinance of God..."' And it is the purpose of civil government to establish "laws as shall best preserve true Christian and civil liberty, in opposition to all unchristian, licentious, and unjust practices, whereby God may have his due, Caesar his due, and the people their due, from tyranny and oppression".
". . . . . But religion, as a life, as an inward principle, though specially developed and fostered by the Church, extends its domain beyond the sphere of technical worship, touches all the relations of man, and constitutes the inspiration of every duty. The service of the Commonwealth becomes an act of piety to God. The State realizes its religious character through the religious character of its subjects; and a State is and ought to be Christian, because all its subjects are and ought to be determined by the principles of the Gospel. As every legislator is bound to be a Christian man, he has no right to vote for any laws which are inconsistent with the teachings of Scriptures. He must carry his Christian conscience into the halls of legislation" (The Collected Writings of James Henley Thomwell, Vol. IV, p. 517).
Old 06-29-2002, 02:17 PM
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Various State Constitutions

The Connecticut Constitution (until 1818):
"The People of this the Providence of God. . .hath the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State. . . and forasmuch as the free fruition of such liberties and privileges as humanity, civility, and Christianity call for, as is due to every man in his place and proportion...hath ever been, and will be the tranquility and stability of Churches and Commonwealth; and the denial thereof, the disturbances, if not the ruin of both."

The Delaware Constitution (1831):
" man ought to be compelled to attend any religious worship..." but it recognized "the duty of all men frequently to assemble together for the public worship of the Author of the Universe." The following oath of office was in force until 1792: "I. profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration."

The Maryland Constitution (until 1851):
"That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such a manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore no person ought by any law to be molested...on account of his religious practice; unless, under the color [pretense] of religion any man shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality. . .yet the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general and equal tax, for the support of the Christian religion." The Constitution of 1864 required "a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion" for all State officers.

The Massachusetts Constitution (until 1863):
This state Constitution included the "right" of "the people of this commonwealth to. . . invest their Legislature with power to authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntary."

The North Carolina Constitution (until 1876):
"That no person who shall deny the being of God, or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority of the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State, shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State."

Past Presidents of the United States

From George Washington's "Inaugural Speech to Both Houses of Congress," April 30, 1789:
"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes....No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency. . . . We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained and since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty and the destiny of the republican model of government are justly considered as deeply, perhaps finally, staked on the experiment...."

Thomas Jefferson

In Jefferson's Second Inaugural Address of March 4, 1805, he made the following comment:

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercise suited to it; but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of state and church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies".

From Abraham Lincoln's "Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day," March 30, 1863:
"Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation:
And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:
And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people; We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined,, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!
It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness. [. . . ]
All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the nation will be heard on high and answered with blessings no less than the pardon of our national sins and the restoration of our now divided and suffering country to its former happy condition of unity and peace.
In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed. By the President: Abraham Lincoln.

Warren G. Harding
It is my conviction that the fundamental trouble with the people of the United States is that they have gotten too far away from Almighty God.

Dwight D. Eisenhower
The purpose of a devout and united people was set forth in the pages of The Bible … (1) to live in freedom, (2) to work in a prosperous land… and (3) to obey the commandments of God… This Biblical story of the Promised land inspired the founders of America. It continues to inspire us.

Ronald Reagan
All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, but those who believe must be free to speak of and act on their belief, to apply moral teaching to public questions… Tolerant society is open to and encouraging of all religions, and this does not weaken us; it strengthens us… Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society and without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure.
Old 06-29-2002, 02:18 PM
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Simply stated, to say that this country was not founded on a Christian base is to simply ignore the facts...but that is exactly what revisionist history does...

You may not like these facts but that does not change them….
Old 06-29-2002, 02:19 PM
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What bull****...
wonder what's next

NICE posts mlitefan... thanks for the knowledge, maybe we should send it to the courts, seems they have forgotten.

Others need to take their tales eslwhere.

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Old 06-29-2002, 02:38 PM
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There is sooo much more, but I know it will fall on deaf ears...

The Leftist social liberals continue to harangue on the "separation of church and state" as justification for eliminating religious issues from public view. The phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words appear nowhere in the Constitution.
Oblivious to the irrelevance of their arguments, and at the same time refusing to acknowledge that no document of state, let alone the Constitution, has ever proposed such a concept, those on the Left have tried to convince the American people that our founding documents warned of the dangers of mixing politics and religion.
In the absence of Constitutional evidence, the mere opinion of private individuals or groups that there should be absolute separation of church and state hardly creates a 'great American principle'. They have thus misled millions and worked against the public interest by damaging the commitment to ethics and moral values.
Old 06-29-2002, 02:40 PM
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."
Only a lawyer could claim not to understand the plain meaning of those words.

The Supreme Court has taken Jefferson's "separation" clause (divorced from Jefferson's own explanation of the phrase) and used it to create a new, and completely arbitrary, interpretation of the First Amendment.
In 1947, with the United States Supreme Court's decision in Everson v. Board of Education, Justice Hugo Black construed the First Amendment in a more restrictive fashion, giving an absolute definition of the First Amendment Establishment Clause which went well beyond the original intent of the framers of the United States Constitution and paved the way for future cases that would further restrict religious expression in American public life. This ruling declares that any aid or benefit to religion from governmental actions is unconstitutional. As Justice Black said: "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."

Hardly what Thomas Jefferson meant or what the constitution guaranteed!

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" had always meant that Congress was prohibited from establishing a national religious denomination, that Congress could not require that all Americans become Catholics, Anglicans, or members of any other denomination.
This understanding of "separation of church and state" was applied not only during the time of the Founders, but for 170 years afterwards. James Madison (1751-1836) clearly articulated this concept of separation when explaining the First Amendment's protection of religious liberty. He said that the First Amendment to the Constitution was prompted because "The people feared one sect might obtain a preeminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform."
The complete and radical disassociation between Christianity and the State that is sometimes advocated now is not what they had in mind. It's clear that they had seen entirely too many religious wars and religious tyrannies in Europe, and thus that they did want to make sure that no specific church or creed had authority over the State.

Recognizing their failure to win their arguments on fact, the lastest tactic among liberals is simply to deny the very documents that contain the facts.
Schools and courthouses in eastern Kentucky are removing their displays of historical documents - including the Mayflower Compact, an excerpt from the Declaration of Independence, the national motto, "In God we trust", and the preamble to the state's constitution - to comply with an order from Federal District Judge Jennifer Coffman, who said the displays are a violation of the First Amendment. [Dr. Billy James Hargis, Christian Crusade, June 2000]
Old 06-29-2002, 02:42 PM
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When the First Amendment was passed it only had two purposes.

1. There would be no established, national church for the united thirteen states. To say it another way: there would be no "Church of the United States." The government is prohibited from setting up a state religion, such as Britain has, but no barriers will be erected against the practice of any religion. Thomas Jefferson's famous "wall of separation" between church and state comment was made in a letter to a group of Baptist clergymen January 1, 1802 in Danbury, Connecticut, who feared the Congregationalists Church would become the state-sponsored religion. Jefferson assured the Danbury Baptist Association that the First Amendment guaranteed that there would be no establishment of any one denomination over another. It was never intended for our governing bodies to be "separated" from Christianity and its principles. The "wall" was understood as one directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values. It keeps the government from running the church but makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government.

2. The second purpose of the First Amendment was the very opposite from what is being made of it today. It states expressly that government should not impede or interfere with the free practice of religion. The purpose of the separation of church and state in American society is not to exclude the voice of religion from public debate, but to provide a context of religious freedom where the insights of each religious tradition can be set forth and tested. As Justice Douglas wrote for the majority of the Supreme Court in the United States vs. Ballard case in 1944: The First Amendment has a dual aspect. It not only "forestalls compulsion by law of the acceptance of any creed or the practice of any form of worship" but also "safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion." The First Amendment was a safe-guard so that the State can have no jurisdiction over the Church. Its purpose was to protect the Church, not to disestablish it.
In the current debate over the separation of church and state, the choices sometimes lean too extreme on both sides. At one extreme are those who want to use the State as a vehicle to enforce their brand of Christian ideas on everyone. At the other extreme are those who say the Founding Fathers would have wanted a situation where one can't mention God in any publicly sponsored forum, for fear of having the State appear to support religion. Somehow, between alternating volleys of quotations from devout Founding Fathers and anti-clerical quotations from Tom Paine, we've got to find a better approach.

Liberals just hate this...
Old 06-29-2002, 02:47 PM
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Didn't Jefferson fight for the seperation of church and state...?

Washington and Adams were in on the Treaty of Tripoli

and doesn't Federal constitution Trump State Constitution , like Cat mentioned earlier...?

seems like alot of typing for nothing..
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