Need some suggestions - CC w/outboards
 

Ok, so I have been kicking the idea around for a while, and think I may actually make the move in the off season. We have enjoyed out Velocity 260 for the past three years, but I am outgrowing it. I think the next step is to a Center Console w/cuddy up front. We do the occasional overnight, so a small cuddy will be a must. I think I want to be in the 29'-36' range with twins. I don't need a speed demon. The reason I have such a broad range is I really have taken a liking to the 36' concept. But also really like the looks of the 32' Glasstream and the 29' Renegade. A scarab sport 302 isn't out of question either. I know some have mentioned the rigging on the Glasstream and Rengades may not be super high quality. This isn't so much of a concern of mine as I have plans to rewire and rerig anything not to my liking. I want a sleek offshore look.

I guess my real question here isn't so much the hulls as it is the power options. With all of the different manufactures and models that are out there what are some things to look out for? I will be buying used, probably anything with Verados will probably be out of my price range... Should I go two or four stroke? Mercury, Evenrude, Suzuki, Yamaha, etc? Which are the most efficient? What if any performance options are available? Reliability?

My price point is going to probably be maxed in the $55k-$60k range. My ideal boat would be one that is structurally sound, but needs cosmetics. This way I can Taylor it to my liking. I have seen a few concepts in the $45k range, a few older scarabs in the $20s (some even cheaper). Since I have always had I/Os, I know nothing about outboards.

Any and all suggestion on both hull brands and motors is welcome. I know there are other brands of hulls out there and I am not opposed to any. Even if they have a fugly t-top. A modern looking radar arch can be had for around $2k. Nice modem bolsters also for another $2k. So fire away guys. What's out there? What should I steer clear of?

With your last sentence you let yourself open but i won't say it ...:lolhit: ...Good luck with your search , that's half the fun !!

I compared the direct injected Mercury two stroke with their four stroke offerings for performance and fuel consumption, and it appears the two strokes are actually more efficient at low speeds, under planing speeds. Above planing speeds, they are almost identical. Performance off the line and top speed are very close between them, too.

As far as reliability, JD Powers shows the two stroke outboards as having about 1/3 more problems that the four strokes.

Most people say the four strokes are quieter than the two strokes, although I haven't been able to find any test data yet.

Also keep in mind you will have to fill an oil tank on the two stroke.

Engine life is typically not as long on a two stroke, but I could not find any hard data on this.

For the same horsepower, the four stroke can weigh nearly the same to about 20% heavier.

Evinrude claims their maintenance costs over three years to be only about 1/3 that of their two and four stroke competitors.

Good luck with your search.

Michael

I did a lot of research when I bought my CC this spring and the more your read about outboards the more confused you become. I ended up with 2007 225 Optimax's and love them so far, great on fuel and oil, no smoke and they are quiet especially compared to open exhaust.

Here is the lowdown based on my research

Merc - EFI - reliable but pigs
Merc - Opti- Must be 03 and newer older ones are called OptiBomb
Merc - Verado - 07 and newer Gen II is better, they worked out the kinks by then
Yami- HPDI - Bad
Yami - OX66- Reliable but pigs
Yami - F250 - Great Motor
Rude - Ficht - Bad
Rude - Etec - Good


I love my 30 Concept, never been on a 36 but have great things to say about the ride and fit and finish, you may want to consider some curtains, you get a lot more air in a CC than a go fast, I see your from MI and it might get pretty cold in a CC

BTW: I dont think your gonna overnight on a 302 Scarab, the cabin is smaller than your Velocity

Search CL in the Miami area and you can find a nice older hull that needs a repower, you may be able to do all that for 60K and have new power with a warranty. also check out Avanti 33's Monza 34, Oceanhawk 33, Powerplay 33

I only need a bed to overnight in. My Velocity has a bed and couches. THe extra room would be nice, but not necessary. Pete280, does your 30 concept have a cuddy up front? If so how is it space wise. I am not opposed to a 30 concept either. I really like the look of the concept

I don;t want to buy on needing repower... I will be financing, with probably $15k-$20k down. There is a decent looking 36 concept with 225 Merc efis on boat trader w/trailer for 45k. It looks really nice, almost too good to be true, but it has been for sale for a while I would look deeper into that one, but not ready to make a move quite yet.....

here is the 36 I am talking about. http://www.boattrader.com/listing/20...pt-Sr36-341744

Also what type of fuel mileage do you get on your boat, pete? I am curious in my Velocity w/496 I see about 2 MPG when cruising. Just trying to prepare myself for the additional fuel cost.

Good point! This is why you don't see a lot fo CC's on the West Coast. When the high temperature during the summer is 60 degrees, people opt for walkaround cuddy's or even pilothouse boats to get out of the cold wind.

Michael

I love my 30 ft scarab sport. Great hull. I have twin Merc 250 EFI's 2 stroke. With all do respect to earlier posts about oil tanks, I filled my oil tanks in April, July, and last week. That really doesn't seem to be alot of work to me, although I didn't do the research on it yet. ( they're 3 gallon tanks )

I really don't mind adding oil if going two strokes. I have read there is a weight savings by removing the oil tanks and pumps and premixing, which is what I would do if I end up with 2 strokes. As far as cold air/wind. Here on the Detoit River, it is really only cool the first month or so of the season. THen it is freaking hot and humid. THe river gets pretty warm, so in the fall the air over the river is usually warmer than on land. I live one block from the river, and our cars stay frost free the first few months of fall and winter because of it. But we do get caught in the rain a few times a year, so having some plastic windows/curtains would be nice to have. When I make the switch to a big CC, I plan on keeping it for a while, so I will go all out on it. I also plan on having a camper cover made for it. It will be pricy, but would allow many to sleep on air matresses through out the boat. I also want a full length cover that comes down to the trailer to keep sides out of the sun when on the trailer. I also plan to do a killer sound system. I would also like to do the faux teak padded floor through out. I know most center cosoles are designed for fishing and for easy clean out. But I saw that floor in a red Cigarette Top Fish, and it blew me away. I want what ever boat I end up with, to have a very classy feel/look to it. I don't fish so I won't have to worry too much about making a mess.

I have looked at a few cabin pics of the COncept 36 and 32. I really like the amount of room. It appears to be about what I have on my Velocity 260 (with much more headroom), maybe a bit more narrow. As long as there is room for the port-a-potty (for the wife), and enough room to laydown for the night, thats all I need.

Yeah, think I have to rule out the Scarab Sport 302... The cabin is way too small for what I need. The concept 36, 32, 30 and older 28s (now the 30) all look to have a very usable cabin. The Glasstream 32 looks to have a nice cabin as well. However of these two brands from what I can see in pics both new and used, the Concepts really look like what I am looking for. I like the idea of the 36, but realistically the 30 would probably suit my needs perfect. Plus the 30 is probably a bit more efficent with twins. We aren't out in the rough too much (occasional trip across lake Erie). So I am sure the 30 is probably going to do much better than our Velocity 260 does. The 36 I am sure would be a much better ride in the rough, but The 30 I could probably trailer (short distance) and launch with my Suburban 1500 and my wifes Silverado 1500. The 36, I would need a heavier truck to move it around. If I go with a 36' I would probably rack store it. I like to bring my boat home to wash and maintain, so I think I am leaning toward the Concept 30. But if the right deal presents itself, anything is possible.....

Pete280, I sent you a PM with my email address, can you email me pics of your Concept? There aren't many of them in my area. There is a nice 36' in my area but I think that is about it. The first time I saw that boat out here on the Detroit River, I fell in love with it. I really appreciate all the help and suggestions.

I am going to post this question over in the Concept section as well. Any knowledge would be appreciated.

I have read that Concept doesn't use wood in it's construction. But what year did this start? With a Concept are there any areas of concern (construction wise)? If previous years used wood, were there concerns of rot? Since these are outboard boats, there is limited thru hull parts, therefore I would assume the risk of transom rot (if wood) would be minimal???

Are there any years that had more issues than others?

thehulltruth.com is a good place to talk C.C.
ed

Don't usually get into conversations about what boat is better than another. I went from a 42 Fountain to a 32 Renegade CC and can't be happier. Boat is doing what I want it to do and have no complaints. No boat is perfect and when buying used it is at best a CRAP SHOOT.

I would put my Renegade's quality up against any other boat at the comparable price range. Is it a Nortech or Deep Impact NO, but at 2 to 3 hundred thousand dollars cheaper, and the way boats depreciate to me it is a good buy.

I'll send some pics of the boat, the "cabin" is very small, smaller than a 302, I dont think you'll be sleeping in it, pretty much a place to store stuff and get out of the rain. I tow mine with our 2010 Yukon and it does fine, I dont know if I would haul it 5-6 hrs but I live 2-3 miles to the ramp, I upgraded the shocks and that was a huge improvement, I think anything heavier would be too much for a Tahoe/Yukon. The 30 weighs about 5000 lbs with motors.

Nice Renegade Road Hog!

I think they are all wood free, my transom is about 3" thick, the only areas of concern mine has is around the bottom of my speaker cutouts, the speakers were not gasketed and the cutout was not sealed so water just sits there, no real structural issue, just something I noticed.

never really checked mileage but I came from a 28 PQ Silencer w/ 502 and my motors defintely use less fuel than the 502, especially when idling around, the Optis are very efficient.

Go over to Boatfreaks and ask MarylandMark. He has extensive experience with Concept center consoles.

Only the pre-2002 is bad. BRP fixed the problems when they took over. And even before then it was only the 150 and 175 that were blowing up, however BRP tossed all the old OMC parts because of inconsistent tolerances, but the damage to the Ficht reputation had been done. One advantage of this is that you can buy the 2003-2004 Ficht cheap.

That Renegade is beautiful! I do like that brand. Thanx for all the info guys, keep it coming.

I own a 1999 302 which I bought new. Great boat and have had no troubles with the 225 optis. The only thing to watch out for with the Scarab is soft spots in cockpit floors.

I used to own a Scarab 32 CC.twin 225 Ordered My Custom 36 Concept Twin 250 Team LuckyStrike Loads of Pics in the Poker-Run last weekend @ Lake Havasu AZ. on riverdavesplace.com My boat goes back and forth from Lauderdale To PHX Az Ive taken that boat from Ocean Conditions to Shallow Water Running Up the Colorado River...Id Buy another In a Heart Beat...But with larger power
and No AC And No Flush Head...Great Boat Great Company
Contact Susan Patterson V.P. Tell her A.J. Sent you
Good-Luck with your buy

I should have added that I gained all my knowledge of outboards off the net so take it with a grain of salt,

I was able to look at a 30 concept (Thanx showtime83). I think the 30 has all the cockpit room I need, and the cabin is big enough to spend the night in. But I think I am going to look for a 36'. I think I need just a little bit more cabin space. By pictures I have seen the 36' has about the same sized cabin as my Velocity 260 has, with a bit more head room in the bed area. My 260 doesn't have much head room at all..... But if I find a really nice 30' I may go that route... I do have a creative way of adding a cover to the front part of the cockpit to increase the covered area when overnighting..... But I will cross that bridge when I get there. First step is to sell the Velocity.....

I have to disagree with you, I have a 1999 302 scarab with 225 Fichts, and they are NOT bad motors as you describe above, they are the biggest pieces of chit I have ever owned !!! Its what sunk the company after all ... now I am repowering and staying with 2 strokes cause of the weight issue for me, and the E-Tec is a front runner so far !!!

Check out the hull truth.com, people are always selling motors, there is someone selling 300x's now for 15k each, 50 hrs with a full warranty, your boat with those motors would be sick

http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/18438

Looks like its right up your ally..

sweet boat, what props are those? I have the same motors except not Pro XS, I have 23p Mirage plus and will be changing to Bravo's,

there are three 350 Verados for sale on Kingfish connection $41k for all three according to the post

Concept:
30- cabin
32- no cabin
36- cabin

My '07 326 with 300XS "cabin" is 3' long, head in the middle with small fiberglass bench on either side. Storage and that is about it. I "think" the 30 and 36 have the same cabin, you gain that extra 4' in cockpit space, not cabin space; but not 100% sure on that.

Concept went to 100% wood-free construction in 2001. The 1985-2000 Concepts still used brackets for the engines so if you are looking in those years, although I haven't heard of any particular issues, I would suspect if you were going to have an issue that is where it would be at. I am just assuming that but it seems to make perfect sense.

2002 the bracket was included in the LOA per Coast Guard regulations. That is why you see 28'-30', same boat, different rules.

:whistle: Thanks!!

BillR did a very nice re-firb on a 302 so may want to contact him for any trouble spots, not that I've ever heard of any. Nice boats, ahead of their time in my opinion.

Few other things:

2007 John Cosker of Mystic Powerboats designed a step in the 30'. The pre-step boats are nice but most of them porpoised once they got over the 65MPHish. Great boats, just weren't built to run with the higher output outboards produced these days, IMHO. Some people claim they have fixed the porpoise with props and set up and so on. I'd think if it were that easy, Concept would have gone that route without having to invest so much in to tooling and research to add a step. The 23', 27', 32' and 36' aren't stepped, have never been stepped and as far as I know aren't planned to be stepped. Clint in Maryland is running in the low 80's with a stepped 30' CC with 300 Verados. Nice!! Don't be scared of a pre-step 30' by any means what-so-ever, just pointing out a known "issue" if you will with them. I had a 2004 30' with 225 EFI's and loved it, 63MPH was smooth riding, could get to 67 while shaking up my drink (with a lid on it) at the same time.

2 strokes- I love them and I don't think adding oil is that big of a deal. My boat holds 212 gallons of fuel and has (2) 3 gallon oil tanks. That will get me around 450 miles at a 40MPH cruise and still have around 2 gallons of oil left. I carry 3 extra gallons of oil with me in the transom floor compartment which would get me another 450 miles after adding fuel. No biggie.

Concept vs others? I liked the little things such as finished floor compartments. No big deal, but have a kid reach in a floor compartment and get a nice fiberglass splinter and your weekend is shot. Wiring and finished is fantastic. Hardware is all heavy duty, heavier than I've seen on a LOT of big name boat. 3/8" I think?, all of it stainless, all of it through bolted, all of the cleats pop-up, etc. Just good stuff. Just seemed like a lot of "better" things for not much price increase. I say better because I don't think the others were junk by any means, just weren't as stout or neat or clean installed or whatever is all.

Now the new crop of performance CC's? NICE- but at 2-5 times the price they should be. Each has a place in the market but can't compare an 11' beam 40' with quads to a 36' including bracket 8' beam with twins boat. Whole different league.

Value of a used CC? I concentrate my search on fresher power. 60% power, 30% hull condition and 20% upholstery, stereo, GPS, etc.

Good luck!!

I guess I am missing something. If the cabin space is such a high priority, why go to a center console at all? The height is going to be severly compromised by the forward cockpit walking area by design.

Michael

Mark,
I agree with everything that you said, Except mine is a 2000 and there is no wood that I can find and I have taken **** apart and crawled everywhere. Mine also says 28PF on the dash and 30 on the side so I think they made the changes in 2000.

I agree on the cabin space, if OP saw the 30' cabin and thinks he can sleep in it he is either A. Drunker than me B. Younger than me or C. Smaller than me (I'm 5'10"), I wanted a cabin for my 2 yr old to crash in, and store stuff, that's it.

I am 5'10, 190 lbs, 38 with multiple spinal fusions..... and i was able to fully stretch out in the 30' cabin. Is it a luxury suite with a king sized bed? No. But it is certainly big enough for two people to sleep in... When I overnight, I only need the cabin to crash in. I don't plan on eating breakfast in bed....

they are 22p bravo 1s but if i were going to purchase a new set I would go with the hydromotive intimidator quad IV in a 23p to get a bit more transom lift

Thanks for the wood-free info and I'll put that in my notes. I think the 30 on the side of your boat was a marketing idea and then in 2002+ dash panels reflect the change in the law. They all build to ABYC standards which I think go by Coast Guard regs (all of this is just what I've heard over the years and seems to make sense).

https://www.abycinc.org/committees/s-08.pdf

Interesting. I never tried the QIV because my boat didn't like the extra stern lift the Rev 4's gave it.

just messing with you low-psi, I have trouble sleeping in my own comfy bed so I guess I am picky. I

Just ordered some new speakers and getting ready to order a new steering wheel!

Thanks!
The Scarab 302 is a great riding boat - that is saying something after coming out of a Top Gun. I personally don't know of any issues with these boats, but heard the same thing about soft spots in deck. Usually caused by someone drilling and not sealing their hole.

The cabin in these boats are a bit larger and two 6' people could sleep in there easily - plus the head room is more generous.

Mine runs almost 63 with 2 Evinrude 225 Fichts. My motors have been pretty darn problem free and they do sip the fuel.

The build of the boat seems to be pretty solid - I have been thru mine stem to stern. However, the Scarab 302 was made only to 2000 before Larry Smith didn't allow Wellcraft to re-up the contract between them. In 2000, wellcraft made LOTS of improvements to the boat - I guess they anticipated re-newing their Scarab agreement.

The lines of the boat are nice, but IMHO they need some graphics and color to make them look better.


The grey boat pic shows what I "think" i'd like to do graphics wise.

Looks nice, Bill!

If you buy a boat with an aluminum bracket it will corrode in salt water. Also all the mounting holes better be sealed up tight because it can be a source of transom rot from water intrusion.

This won't work on ETECs. The oil is directly injected through ports in the crank case and on the main bearings. I assume Optimaxes are the same. They are designed to inject pure gas (no oil) into the cylinders. If you disconnect the oil system and only mix oil with the gas, NO oil will make it to the crank and bearings.

Now for a carb motor or regular EFI, you can mix. DFI- no!

Dash looks great, do you like the 3 spoke wheel better than the fitted grips? I am getting ready to replace mine and go back and forth between the two.

Also, I ready to buy new props if you happen to stumble across any let me know, Bravo 22P.