Poker Run Format - should it be changed?
09-09-2013, 04:04 PM
#31
Driver-441
Racer
Poker runs shouldn't be treated like races. If you wanna race get on a race circuit. Seems to me most poker runs in the boating works have lost the true spirit of a poker run. Go to a motorcycle poker run and check that out. Always a charity cause and people cruising for the sake of cruising.
I'm all for speed and going fast but there is a time and place for everything and I believe boats are so much faster now that poker runs present a special challenge in a lot of traffic in a small area.
I'm all for speed and going fast but there is a time and place for everything and I believe boats are so much faster now that poker runs present a special challenge in a lot of traffic in a small area.
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09-09-2013, 04:27 PM
#34
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A lot of really good points here. I raced Super V Lite, Super V and Super Cat for many years. Had incidents on the race course, got injured and recovered. I run a high speed CAT 3 to 4 days a week over 100 all the time. I was in the front row of Desert Storm a few years back and I believe it was the most dangerous thing I have ever done in boating and 10x more dangerous than anything that I had ever done in a race boat. I took off with the first couple of boats, pulled away with a 5 or 6 boat pack of "leaders" and after about 2 minutes and around the first turn, throttled back, pulled to the side and just let everyone go....I almost got hit 3 or 4 times by guys on both sides of me.
I don't know how you "speed limit" these events. Guy's with the faster boats generally want to run their equipment to their limit, and that's one of the primary reasons that they attend. I also think that the faster boats and faster speeds are a big reason that the better attended Poker Runs get so many attendees. Even if you propose a speed limit, what is the enforcement and what are the consequences?. I am not aware of anyone ever being penalized in a Poker Run for running outside of event guidelines. At desert storm, they tell you that if you have back seat passengers, you can't run over 100 MPH yet every year we see boat after boat with back seat passengers clearly going 100+ and nothing is done about it.
It used to be pretty rare for boats to have the capability of achieving 160+ mph speeds, now we have a large fleet of bigger CATS all across the country that can achieve those speeds, and a lot higher. I am friends/acquaintances with at least 4 Guys that have newer Skaters that can run over 180, basically large drag boats, and NONE of them are interested in racing the boats (appropriately since they are not race boats), they are purpose build "biggest dog" Poker Run boats or LOTO boats. If you told these Guys they could attend your Poker Run but could not run over 120, they simply would not show up in my opinion. My boat does not run 180 but if you told me I could not run over 120 mph I would not show up, I would stay at my local lake and run how I wanted to run.
Can't compare these events to a Motorcycle Poker Run - the participants still have to abide by posted speed limits - no speed limits on the waterways where there events / accidents took place.
I don't have solutions, or even suggested solutions that I believe would work so I am not going to be of much help except to say these event's, which clearly are not anything like real races have absolutely evolved into "racing mentality" as far as the approach,, who is going to get to the "first stop first" is mostly what people talk about before the event. That leads to sustained speeds of 150, 160 and higher and a requirement to go as fast as the lead boat. We have seen that for years at Desert Storm, and other events where the water conditions are conducive to being able to do that.
I am actually amazed that we have not had many, many more incidents than we have had over the years.
It is a terrible loss - reading what everyone has written about these two passionate people sounds like they will be missed and were wonderful people.
One final comment - No one goes to jail for throttling back for a second or two if you are unsure about the results of wide open operation.....as I get older, I think about that more, and I do it more.
I don't know how you "speed limit" these events. Guy's with the faster boats generally want to run their equipment to their limit, and that's one of the primary reasons that they attend. I also think that the faster boats and faster speeds are a big reason that the better attended Poker Runs get so many attendees. Even if you propose a speed limit, what is the enforcement and what are the consequences?. I am not aware of anyone ever being penalized in a Poker Run for running outside of event guidelines. At desert storm, they tell you that if you have back seat passengers, you can't run over 100 MPH yet every year we see boat after boat with back seat passengers clearly going 100+ and nothing is done about it.
It used to be pretty rare for boats to have the capability of achieving 160+ mph speeds, now we have a large fleet of bigger CATS all across the country that can achieve those speeds, and a lot higher. I am friends/acquaintances with at least 4 Guys that have newer Skaters that can run over 180, basically large drag boats, and NONE of them are interested in racing the boats (appropriately since they are not race boats), they are purpose build "biggest dog" Poker Run boats or LOTO boats. If you told these Guys they could attend your Poker Run but could not run over 120, they simply would not show up in my opinion. My boat does not run 180 but if you told me I could not run over 120 mph I would not show up, I would stay at my local lake and run how I wanted to run.
Can't compare these events to a Motorcycle Poker Run - the participants still have to abide by posted speed limits - no speed limits on the waterways where there events / accidents took place.
I don't have solutions, or even suggested solutions that I believe would work so I am not going to be of much help except to say these event's, which clearly are not anything like real races have absolutely evolved into "racing mentality" as far as the approach,, who is going to get to the "first stop first" is mostly what people talk about before the event. That leads to sustained speeds of 150, 160 and higher and a requirement to go as fast as the lead boat. We have seen that for years at Desert Storm, and other events where the water conditions are conducive to being able to do that.
I am actually amazed that we have not had many, many more incidents than we have had over the years.
It is a terrible loss - reading what everyone has written about these two passionate people sounds like they will be missed and were wonderful people.
One final comment - No one goes to jail for throttling back for a second or two if you are unsure about the results of wide open operation.....as I get older, I think about that more, and I do it more.
I was building a car to run in the silver state classic back in the late 80's, I really wanted to go out and run flat out for 87 miles or what ever it is, they had virtually NO rules when it started. Just about the time I had my car completed around 1990 someone endo'd a stock corvette at a 140+ mph when a stock tire blew out and IF I remember right the guys wife who was riding with him was killed , the rules went from run whatever you want at whatever speed/class you can keep up with and no extra safety equipment to all kinds of safety rules, fire suits, roll cages, nitrogen in tires, etc, etc. They quickly realized that anyone with a fast car could go out there and run as fast as they could and kill themselves in the process and that the run would not sustain if they continued to allow it so the rules became very strict. They still have crashes and deaths once in a while even with good safety equipment but people do walk away from some pretty nasty crashes at speed there. Yes, it will kill participation at poker runs if they have to have the same exact equipment as a race boat that runs equivalent speeds but other than closing off courses, strict safety equipment and or impossible to enforce speed limits there will continue to be crashes/fatalities, no way around it, Smitty
09-09-2013, 04:28 PM
#35
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It's all about the participant's spirit. A Skater with 3,400 hp with a driver and throttleman sure sounds like a race boat. Not many boaters can afford to buy and maintain 1,700 hp engines. The service intervals on these engines are very short. It needs to stop being an all out race to the first card stop. Short speed contests are fun but then back off and cruise. Let the smaller 80 mph boats run in front for awhile. A pace boat will not work as the boaters want to open them up at least for short bursts. If something must go then I say it is the inflated egos. The faster boats can settle who is faster with a short race between two boats. I have a smaller boat so I don't participate in poker runs but we do have some fun runs on Lake St. Clair and the Rivers and the Greats. They are handled as I stated. It's so hard to express my feelings right now. I do feel horrible about what happened and don't ever want to see that happen again......... 
BTW, the video is out there if you do a google search. I think the big poker runs are done. Maybe these guys will participate more in sanctioned racing where rules and safety measures are in place.
BTW, the video is out there if you do a google search. I think the big poker runs are done. Maybe these guys will participate more in sanctioned racing where rules and safety measures are in place.
09-09-2013, 04:30 PM
#36
I understand bidpro excellent post but you cannot please all the guys all the time. Let 'em rip, and you'll please the fast crowd, and get the spectators hoping to witness "something cool" - I'm told a lot of auto enthusiasts go to races hoping to see a "great" crash. The end result will be no events except very expensive and highly regulated and NOT available to the general public. Or limit the speeds, save the lives and continue the sport available to the general public. Radar or laser timing units can be set up to measure speeds and disqualify the too fast boats. Boatme is right - I just asked a busy lawyer friend - the end could be closer than we think.
09-09-2013, 04:38 PM
#38
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09-09-2013, 04:44 PM
#39
1. People with new boats are the life blood of poker runs, boats aren't selling like 2004-07 so attendance has dropped
2. Costs have skyrocketed from insurance, fuel to event fees
3. Locations are the same.....How many times can someone go to the Tiki Bar in Islamorada? Place was a dump for years, dockage is terrible (lots of rafting) and there is nothing to do, places like Key West can handle the crowds/more things to do.
A good poker run with overnight stays was $2000-3000 for me 6 years ago and I was a local to the events I attended. Boat had 6.2's so fuel was 180 gallons at most ($3 a gallon) and the boat finished every poker run it started so I didn't have a big repair after every run like some of these boats. Figure today a 38/525 powered boat would cost the owner $3000-5000 to do an event like Emerald Coast/Key West/Lake Cumberland assuming they drive the truck/trailer to the event and didn't start their trip from California!
So say a 4K average, 5 runs a year is 20K on top of the costs of owning/running the boat! Now add the safety issue and PR's could be easily crossed off the bucket list and save 20K doing it......
There is a member on here that PM'd me a few years back and told me to run a 1075 powered 40+ ft cat was costing him over 100K a year........he did it for awhile and switched to a much more economical boat and simply does fewer runs. He had been there, done that and didn't want to commit 100K a year to PR's anymore.
09-09-2013, 04:55 PM
#40
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It's all about the participant's spirit. A Skater with 3,400 hp with a driver and throttleman sure sounds like a race boat. Not many boaters can afford to buy and maintain 1,700 hp engines. The service intervals on these engines are very short. It needs to stop being an all out race to the first card stop. Short speed contests are fun but then back off and cruise. Let the smaller 80 mph boats run in front for awhile. A pace boat will not work as the boaters want to open them up at least for short bursts. If something must go then I say it is the inflated egos. The faster boats can settle who is faster with a short race between two boats. I have a smaller boat so I don't participate in poker runs but we do have some fun runs on Lake St. Clair and the Rivers and the Greats. They are handled as I stated. It's so hard to express my feelings right now. I do feel horrible about what happened and don't ever want to see that happen again......... BTW, the video is out there if you do a google search. I think the big poker runs are done. Maybe these guys will participate more in sanctioned racing where rules and safety measures are in place.
BTW, the video is out there if you do a google search. I think the big poker runs are done. Maybe these guys will participate more in sanctioned racing where rules and safety measures are in place."A Skater with 3,400 hp with a driver and throttleman sure sounds like a race boat"
I think this is a common misconception....Not a race boat at all simply because of power and two person operation (Driver, Throttleman) - no canopy, no full time/part time occupant air system, no safety on the course, no "dunker" test to practice getting out of the boat in the event of an incident etc etc etc. Not even close to a race boat, an incredibly fast pleasure boat.
I can tell you 100% that the Driver / Throttleman (two person operation) typically produces an environment of less control, slower reaction to problems. I throttled actual Race (premier classes) boats from 1994 through 2006. In a pleasure application, and I would add in a lot of actual race applications two person operation increases the chance for error.
Last edited by bidpro; 09-09-2013 at 05:04 PM.
