Lets try this again. Solve the problems
 

A few days ago, I started a thread called "Lake Cumberland and the Blame Game". The catalyst for the thread was to ignite a conversation of what could be done to alleviate the blow-over, which has been a common thread in the last 5 fatalities. Unfortunately, some of the less bright and more obnoxious of our family used the thread to act irresponsibly and speak with no filter. It got to a point that some of these people were rude and downright mean-spirited. It turned into a pizzing contest that could not be won. I asked the mod-squad to freeze the thread and stop the BS.

Obviously, the OSO family is full of brilliant minds. I'm convinced that collectively, we can all put our heads together and come up with some reasonable solutions to the problems that could cause the demise of our sport as we know it if we just sit back and continue down the path we're on. I ask that this thread be used for this purpose only. If you want to bad-mouth and point fingers, please, just go start your own thread. If you have any ideas that could provide a path to a solution, by all means, share it. If you have any input as to why one idea or thought may be better than another, or why a certain idea may not be reasonable, please pipe in. While I've always focused on the blow-over, understand that this thread is meant to address any and all issues we may have.

I'll start:

I'm a big believer in that you can't fix stupid (or arrogance, or ego). Expecting people to follow a set of rules because you ask them to is always going to fail because there will always be someone who thinks the rules don't apply to them or someone who didn't grasp the meaning of a particular rule. I also am a big fan of Cosa Nostra. Although they were criminals, they had a perfect business model that was successful for may decades. Heres how I think the rules can be enforced: Form a 5-person commission. Finding the 5 people should not be difficult and deciding who should participate would be voted by the commission itself after the leader is determined. The leader would choose the second member, those two would vote on a third member, those three would vote and so-on.

The commissions' role would not be to rule the PR world, but to offer opinions regarding the behavior of PR participants. Because there are so many clubs and organizations, if they want to participate, they would subscribe (at no cost but with some kind of registration). It would not be open to the public. As an example, lets say xyz powerboat club has a PR. Participant 000 blows by the pace-boat at 160 before the flag is lowered. While there would be no immediate recourse for xyz powerboat club, they would report the incident to the commission with any video evidence. The Commission would view the evidence and make a decision as to the validity of the complaint and try to contact the participant to allow a rebuttal. If the participant could provide proof of a valid reason for their actions, no harm no foul. If they can't, the commission would advise all of the other organization subscribers of the infraction by posting the event and their findings on the website. It would then be up to the other clubs to decide what should be done about the infraction. Lets say there are 20 clubs participating. They see on the website that Barney Mclumplump driving his 160MPH Larson jumped a start. The commission determines it was a blatant infraction of the hosting clubs rules and posts its findings on the website. The clubs would then react accordingly and at their own discretion. Unlike the Mob, Mr. Mclumplump wouldn't be hunted down and ventilated. However, if the right clubs participate, he could be told "thanks but no thanks" regarding his participation in their next event. This could result in losing accommodations, parking, dock space and if I was Mr. Mclumplump, more than a little embarrassment. If a club decides to do nothing, that's their business; they have the facts and they could use them as they wish. The orginal hosting club could refuse entry for the next event as well. BTW, a participating club could go as far as to publically ban a person by posting the decision here and other places. A lot of work? Yes. Worth the effort? Hell yes.

Don't get me started on the blow-over problem because I don't have the time today

This was a tragedy and it IS going to happen again….when there is a need for speed, accidents happen, and trying to treat wealthy businessmen like kids will not work. There are speed limits on the highways, and these same people still push their cars and bikes to illegal speeds all the time….its the RUSH.
and even with all the rules and regulations, participants are lost in Indy Racing, NASCAR, High Speed Plane Racing and etc… as much as it sucks to lose great people, you CANNOT control the outcome when high speeds and unstable surfaces are involved.

it will fix it's self.... Poker Runs will become too much of a liability.

That's exactly what we don't want to happen though

For every action there is a reaction. In this case I would consider it an over reaction (not trying to down play the seriousness of the losses sustained in the boating community one bit). There will always be accidents at poker runs no matter what you do to insure the opposite. We have speed limits on the roads, seat belt rules, vehicle safety standards etc etc and we still have auto related casualties. The most alarming thing I noticed in most of the LCPR videos is how close these boats are running to anchored spectators. We all know the risk we are taking operating boats at speed but the disregard for innocent bystanders is whats chapping my ass.

Temporary poker run limiters, do we really need to go that much faster than 100mph in a poker run, remember, it's not supposed to be a race.

Just a fallacy.

Let's try this one more time. Slow down.

That is the only answer whether you like it or not.

Same thing applies to every motorized vehicle on the planet, in the air or in space. History has proved it.

And then we applaud in a different thread about a new 41' boat with 1650s just going 170mph,....................................... this is going to be harder than we all think.

While this is true and I agree 100%, its not going to be a good enough reason to get another chance at LC next year if they choose to not have it. Slowing down and using common sense is certainly what all of us need to do (some more than others obviously). But we need a solid plan even if its to partially look good on paper because that's the only way we will get another shot at it at Cumberland IMO, and other poker runs will follow. Don't take that the wrong way, I think we need a solid plan to organize runs and actually follow through with it but it needs to look good on paper for officials to agree into it.

Now that im thinking, I guess this thread is about improving the design of boats to prevent accidents and I was thinking it was about the steps we need to take to make poker runs safer but they are pretty much one in the same thing.

Kevin

Yes Jim but there is a place to run that. Not a lake or river when it's crowded. There is this whole offshore thing. Atlantic, pacific, gulf. Wide open spaces. Stretch it out

Great idea.

Now see if anybody gets this: Slow down.

Then there are some of us that think it is ridiculous! Open cockpit with only a life jacket for safety... LMAO

I know, the problem is getting them to run where it's safe, you and I know there's lots of room at the right place, the Gulf is mighty BIG.

I'm with you, I thought when the 1650s first came out they were only going to be sold to race teams, guess not.

The people running that boat without safety gear are simple trying to reach the light at the end of the tunnel that much faster ... :) anyways it all comes down to common sense or the lack thereof. People have big egos and high dollar toys. They do not care who else is on the water only that they have the biggest and fastest boat. If people don't learn to slow down then the law enforcement will eventually be the ones putting an end to it for all of us. There is a time and a place to run wide open at 150+ but it sure as hell isn't on a crowded lake. You want to play like a big boy then go out and play where the big boys run. Their is a reason they are called offshore power boats.

Wouldn't matter. If they didn't sell them to the public someone else would.

I will not say I have the saving answer. But my Lady and I enjoy poker runs because it is a chance to run with people who have a "Go-Fasts" and we enjoy meeting the people who go with it. My boat tops out at 79. Plenty fast enough for us. Would I buy a 150 mph boat if I could afford it? You Damn right I would. Would I run it where it could cause damage? Probably not. I would like to see poker runs have speed classes. Less than 60, 61-90, 91-110, 111 & up. Maybe something to that effect. I really don't have to much fun trying to navigate around slower boats and avoiding faster boats from behind.

Drag Racing was a passion of mine for years. Running a 10 second 1970 Mustang and a 12 second 1979 Z-28. Well once you break into certain categories You must do modifications. ie helmets, Roll cages, parachutes, fuel cutoffs, five points, Now I am saying we need parachutes but maybe we could draw the experiences of other "fast" sports into our own.

Not sure why you're repeating yourself to me as you quote me saying "I AGREE WITH YOU 100%."

The idea posted seems to me like one of those setups with the marbles and levers and dominos..you know 58 reactions interconnected to push the lever on the toaster. In the end the people who put the runs on are the ones that have to agree with it. Skip[ 27 steps and get the a rep from each of the major runs together at key west or the Miami boat show or something. Lock them in a room. they put the runs one, they will be the ones to enforce rules, they need to have each others back. The participants need to know that if they act like fool at poker run A. The rep from poler run A. is going to be on the bat phone to the reps from runs C.D.R and F. and that they will not be welcomed at those events. We participate in pr's but they are the promoters events. the promotoers need to have a concensus of whats acceptable and have each others back.Sure you might black list a couple of the ballers and it wont be pretty, but would you rather black list someone or plant them??

Poker run with different card stops where navigation not speed comes into play????Final stop with a 3 hour window for slower boats or cruisers?Space them out a little so they have less chance for crash or damage??

Lake cumberland had like 5 different speed classes which is more than most runs I believe

Well said

There is ton if input on this issue. I don't mind the debate. I see some posts where as the poster has no clue of what they saying, attempting to sell product, or just being a key board commando for the hell of it and never raced and never attended a PR. And that's ok. No one should expect or blame the manufactures for the owners/drivers stupidity. and let's not ask them to solve the problems. No manufacturer is holding a gun to the operators head to drive faster or to drop a 1650 HP peace of metal in a tub that is designed and classified, rated etc. to handle say 1000 HP. some deep pocket yo-yo wants to go 165+. ok. He won't go 10 miles offshore, since there is no one to see it and he can't show off his ego, no yuotube vids of his insanity. Until we as boaters realize and remember what is a boat for and it's use, (mostly recreation, unless you're in the racing circuit) there is NO answer and no solution. There is no other way to put it, SLOW DOWN WHEN YOU SHOULD'T GO FAST. Just because you can go 150+ doesn't mean you have to when the conditions are not there. The only condition, place, location where you should, and could, is 10 miles out in the Golf, (or where ever, I think you got my meaning), Owners with deep pockets need the vids and the attention of behaving like a 10 year old. Some are lucky and can enjoy the youtube media. Some are mourned by their family.

+1

Why is this thread here? This guy had the last thread he started CLOSED because he didn't' like the dialog. F that! What if this thread doesn't go the way he wants? Cry to the mods and others again? BS. If you value your time responding......post over HERE ON THIS THREAD instead to join a real conversation that is continuing on making poker runs safer and boats too.

The boats, equipment, etc are fine! Except many need to actually use the safety equipment designed to save their lives. We don't need to modify the boats to accommodate poor judgement. Participants need to exercise better judgement and stop RACING to the first stop. Not sure why we need 10 different threads, where the general concesus is the same "slow down". It appears some of you are looking for a magical device that will make the boats and poker runs safer. Got news for you all, the human brain is that magical device. Problem is the ego in some appears to over power the brain. There is no need to over think this folks.

We all know the answer just not every one will accept it. Slow down... its that simple. Speed is awesome and fun but it can be very bad as well. The rules will mean nothing if there is no enforcement. We need to police ourselves before other decide to do it for us... and those people usually have shiney badges and are generally not as forgiving as a we would be. I saw it happen with street racing in NY. They cracked down hard. They would impound your car for simply sitting in a parking lot watching. ."Participating in an illegal street racing event". They would block the exits and bring in the tow trucks. When people get pissed off enough they take action and usually that action is a far over reaction to what occurred.

thanks for saving me the lengthy typing.....

Yup

Yeah, that's right, I didn't like the dialog. The last thread was to ignite a discussion on solving the problems we're facing and it turned into a disrespectful bashing of the people involved in the accident. If you don't like my approach Nort, don't read my thread. I couldn't care less. I didn't cry to the mods either. We spoke by phone before I posted my request and discussed how out of control people were. BTW, I don't expect the thread to go any direction much less "the way he wants". I can tell you this much; if you or anyone else is stupid enough to think that people are just going to slow down and follow the rules because of another accident, your dreaming. Something needs to be done to control the people who can't control themselves. Rather than badbouth my thread Nort, why don't you come up with a way to make it better? Otherwise, kiss my azz.

It's not a complete fix but it will avoid a lot of blow overs overs on cats.Manufactures need to install several large holes on the front part of the hull with flaps that are controlled by gravity weights, the flaps will open as the boat raises above level, and stay shut as the boat is level and air keeps them shut s it passes under the hull, once the boat goes 10 -15 degrees above center the laps start to open due to the weights staying and 0 gravity.

At this speed it doesn't matter if you wear a helmet or not, or if you are confined to a closed cockpit… 170mph and thats all she wrote if it goes wrong!

I'm not sure I understand the whole concept of poker run as it has turned in to. You bring out your boat no matter what style, go to different areas and get cards, party at the end and see who draws the best hand. When did these all become poker races? There would be more gearheads of all types to admire these machines at the docks pulling in and out than out on the water. And if there are 2 guys wanting to settle a debate over who is fastest...go settle it alone and come back and talk smack or whatever with everyone after it's done. I haven't been to the loto shootout in years, but it seems like the best way to show these boats off...with way more spectators to see who is the fastest with each style of boat. Get together, watch fast boats go really fast in a very controlled environment. Have a fun run (not race) if you want to to show off the boats, save the speed show for the actual shootout with radar gun and no excuses.

The place to run 150 plus is out in the open spaces. When we have a poker run on a course which is by itself fairly narrow and congested we need realistic speed limits.

Wannabe

By the way, I don't disagree with you that the other thread has some great ideas. And its originator is someone who knows his stuff. He would be my first choice to lead the effort that I described without a doubt. Unfortunately, his thread hasn't been effective. Not that its a competition, but that thread was started 5-years ago. We just had fatalities last week. I'm not sure if it will, but I'm hoping my thread will result in real some action and not 5 years worth of talk

As Pat stated, it's the boat operators that need to put the reighns on and slow the f**k down. I've yet to hear of a mechanical failure that caused any of these recent Poker run incedents. I've been on few Poker runs myself (Key West) and have attended many small boat events (River Ranch, Jupiter Hot Boat Ralley, Tiki Bar Ralley, Clewiston 200hp shootout, etc.) where tripple digit speeds were attained. I've found more pleasure in riding along side my buddies, shooting pictures, admiring other boats, and socializing than the bragging rights of being the first one to the card stops or the fast guy on the water. Boats, motors, drives, etc have become so advanced that they've outpaced the abilities of most of the people that can afford to buy/drive them. It becomes more of a problem when these boats are driven to these extreme speeds during Poker runs where many other "civilian" boaters, spectators, boat wakes, etc. are present. These speeds should only be run in controlled environments (shootouts) or when the operator knows he has the "clean" water and no other boat traffic to be concerned about. We all watched with horror the video of the Fountain that beat the daylights out of everyone on board and he was going half the speed of these powerful cats!! It's time for us as a community to wake up, man up, and agree in advance NOT to run beyond a specific speed limit during these events..These are social events, NOT races and therefore the drivers need to regulate themselves to maintaining the safety of their passengers as well as the rest of the fleet.

On another note, I find it interesting that all of these incedents took place on closed bodies of water with the pack running relatively close to each other considering the speeds they were running. To my knowledge there have not been any tradgic accidents on the Key West, Jacksonville or Bahamas Poker runs. When the boats have the ability to spread out over large bodies of water the safety factors improve....

You're right, in the PR environment. But there were 3 fatalities within a couple of days of each other in Key West during the race. That goes to what can be done about the blow-over. Regarding PRs, does anyone really think that EVERYONE is going to control themselves and follow a set of rules. Why would they?

If I remember correctly both boats went over in Key West Harbor....Big Thunder Marine kited while accelerating down the straight away in front of the fans before Mallery Square.....again, lots of boat wakes bouncing off the sea wall and an increase in accelleration down the straight away that was in "protected" water...bad things happen fast at those speeds with little (if any at all) time to correct...

the first safety device is that melon on top of the shoulders. you can't fix stupid, especially when it has $$$. note;Key West's harbor was favored for the racing back when I lived there.you have 5 channels meeting there, depending on temp, winds and current trends. that was the challenge for racer's. have seen go from 6-8 ft at shipping channel to FAC in several hours. driving fast may seem ok, but lots of other boaters don't pay any mind.

Slow down in areas that are congested questionable or could produce an incident.....keeping distances from others in the run(i.e. if a drive breaks and boat hooks?) Just because you have a fast boat or the fastest doesn't mean you have to show it 110% all the time....