Here's who you should ask:

Sterling Peformance
1-248-684-5040
Ask for Mike

I was just quoted about $16,000-$18,000 all in to convert both motors. $5-6000 for a single carb + $6-800 for another throttle body + $800 for high pressure pumps……


Looks like I'll be running carbs for another year or 2. :)

Great guy to talk to. Just too pricey for my pocket book.

PM HAXBY, might have setup for you. otherside, I like people that cram bunch of gauges in dash to never check the. alarm lights are ok, but have to be scanned. a critical alarm needs to have a sound device that is a different tone(high pitch) from other devices to be heard at speed over engines. in determining carb or efi, what is comfortability of operator with running. as far as sensor,s most are common to autoparts stores, normally gm's. I think need to determine prior to building engine, carb or efi. their are some components that can throw off setting up and operation, not as bad as used to be, but better to start off in good position.

Would somebody get Eddie Young in here? I am dying to see what he says about this... I would also like to learn more about Cheif's electronic control management system, I think that thing even measures engine sound or some sort of harmonics. That being said, technology is your friend. If you can program on the dyno (and in the boat) for every conceivable variable, why would you want a carb? I think most are simply afraid of the technology. If you have a laptop you can usually diagnose in under a minute.

Besides, in your best Sean Connery/James Bond voice say "carb" then say "Electrooonic Fuellll Injectionnnne" - case closed

Why would you be dying to hear what Eddie Young has to say? Or even Haxby for that for that matter? They are both advertisers that specialize in EFI. There are guys that specialize carbs...what do you think they might say? Of course the marine industry is going to be trending towards EFI, it has always rode the coat tails of the automotive industry. Whats not being mentioned here is that there has been alot going on with carb development (of course on a smaller scale) in the last 10-15 years; stuff that was considered the hot set up then is now considered junk. Remember Bob Teague pushing the 830 Holley years ago? Anyone into carbs these days would tell you to throw it in the trash. A good carb guy claims he can set you up from accross the country, you can bolt it on and just adjust the idle. I guess I'm going to find out.

Let me know what you find out.... I'll need to figure out what the best carb is for a 509....

Lotsa opinions on this topic.... So i take it I'm better off to find the best carb set up and tune it to my motors to them as my 2000 Merc MPI is outdated... When the FI advocates are talking recent EFI as the most dependable and efficient how recent are we talking about?

I hear you can get a really good typewriter nowadays too.. :daz:

I'm not saying EFI is better for a marine engine then a carburetor because I'm an EFI salesman, I say it because I'm an engine builder and proffesional tuner. Eddie will tell you the same thing, because he builds and tunes engines for a living, not because he sells efi. You have to look past the fuel portion of it, and look at the control and safety it adds to the entire package. I'm not scared of carburetors and tune lots of them at the track, and on my dyno. They make great power and can be dialed in very well, there are lots of good aftermarket offerings these days too, but I feel the only reason to run a carb on a marine endurance engine is because budget, and that's becoming less of a hurdle. If you've got a big dollar engine and want the best carb for it, it's still gonna cost some $. Then, if you want to really dial it in you'll need a sand alone wide band set up, then if you want to protect it, you'll likely want to buy some sort of knock control, or monitoring device, aftermarket ignition system... All that and way more comes standard on a basic modern efi system.

I like dinosaurs . :evilb: Because I am one . :coolcowboy:

These comments are based upon personal experience. During the past year we worked with Alex Haxby in transitioning 14 of our clients from carb to the Holley EFI. These were various stages of performance ranging from 600 to 1400 HP. The vast majority were previously using custom carb setups by quality tuners, the likes of ProSystems, C&S, Willys, and Nickerson. The user feedback has been tremendously positive.

In terms of the ease of use, the latest iterations of EFI are light-years ahead of the less user friendly orientated versions. The systems are intuitive, removing the intimidation factor from real time tuning. The ability to move from sea level to 8000 ft, under any atmospheric conditions, with the ability to optimize your tuning program to the ambient, is invaluable. In a number of instances Alex was able to assist in the initial tuning process real time from a remote location.

From a performance perspective, I have yet to see any qualified data that a carbureted application has any performance advantage over EFI in any marine application.

Bob

Yes, but how much does it cost. Like others have said, at least for me, price matters. If it's $5,000 that's one thing. If it's $20,000 then that's a different deal.

If someone could show me the time value/safety/improved reliability/reduced wear…..then I would do it in a second.

I've been out of the speed shop business for many years and just recently got back into playing with modern diesels on the side. But besides the obvious wiring and ignition part changes, you basically only need to know a few things to lay out a custom EFI setup. How much air your moving, how much fuel your burning, and how much HP your engine is capable of producing. Then you find or build an intake with injectors bosses where you want them, get a throttle body rated to flow the air ya need, and last injectors, rails, fuel pump, and regulator matched to your engine build. Now days ya get to pick from over the counter plug and play setups, or rolling your own custom builds. When I was into this, that first option didn't even exist.

Naturally aspirated, complete multi-port BB Chevy systems with all the wiring and intake start at $2500 from big box mail order shops. If blown, you'll need to take the boost pressure into consideration for multi-port, and possibly some other intake options. If your already blown with carbs, those Holley EFI setups are a very "reasonable priced" upgrade that's pretty much lands on the plug and play side of swaps.

I've always preferred port injection, and with all the supercharger and turbo options out there today it's relatively easy to find the correct intake to fit your build plumbed with bosses and fuel rail mounts. Plus the aftermarket ECM market has exploded with self learning / tuning setups that use wide band O2 sensors to map the fuel curve perfectly. Guessing those setups would take care of most of the under 1000hp users on here. For custom builds like twin blowers or turbos, your gonna wanta spend that 5k plus and let someone who does this every day at least write your tunes and figure the big questions like injectors sizing. Either way, in the end you'll have a rock solid setup that should have better performance, protect the engine, and long outlast everything under it no matter the conditions or how hard you beat on it..

I have been building/tuning carbed engines most of my life wether it be in boats or hot rod cars and if you would have asked me 3 years ago about doing anything other than a carbed engine I would have sent you elsewhere. I saw the writing on the wall over that last 3 years but it wasn't until this past year I had the opportunity to be involved in 2 different EFI builds at my shop. 1 with Marine Kinetics and another with a local customer. Both opened my eyes to the advantages of systems available to us today that where not just a few short years ago. I am converting all my personal builds to EFI this winter and have and will continue to push my customers in the same direction as the cost and ease of use has finally became a non factor compared to cost of engine builds.

Honestly BAM, for you I wouldn't see much advantage in switching to FI. You have the skills to dock your boat with blower surge, most of your boating is done at the same elevation (no real need to have the motors auto adjust), and you have the talent available to assist with tuning the carbs as necessary. From a performance standpoint, I don't think you would see much if any improvement by switching, other than maybe a bit more low rpm torque and smoother idle.
From a safety standpoint, as long as all the seals in the carb are refreshed and they are tuned to start easily (no flooding so no excess fuel vapors in the bilge), they should be equal. In fact carbs running at a lower psi fuel pressure should be better in the event of a fuel leak.
that said, if you were buying new engines, I would definitely vote for efi. Hit the key and go.

Thanks for saving me $20,000.

BTW my niece is getting married on April 26th - that's Havasu weekend :(

Its fairly rare we even build Carb motors anymore. We use Accel DFI Fuel Management systems with incredible success. Forget the power, its the driveability that makes it worth it. A well tuned EFI motor will never stall, no more pumping it, and your engine is custom tuned to your specific boat. Take a lot of oomph to get on plane? We can add fuel there. Like to cruise at 3500? Lets make that spot as efficient as we can. Not to mention in real rough water, fuel management with carbs goes down the tubes. You land hard, the floats slam down, the motor is way rich right when you need the snappiest acceleration there is. Bad news if you're trying to win. Carbs still work. They certainly have an old school look and feel. Its also kind of cool that not everyone knows how to feel out a big bad carb motor. For example, a big surging blower motor. A lot of people think its neat that you need to know to shift at the bottom of the lope for a lot smoother shift. Me? Nah....Ill take the EFI. If your building a $30,000 800hp motor, the extra 2-4k is completely worth it. We recommend EFI for everything we build. We'll still build a Carb engine, but I'm fairly certain the day will come when Carb engines are like engines with Points....a thing of the past.

Any questions give us a call- 518-644-3080, talk to Jason.

Don't take this as a "Quote" or "Estimate" from me, but depending on the hardware you have, and the rigging you already have...I really doubt it would be 20k.

I may switch someday but I would probably switch boats before changing an already great set up. Like SummerO said, we didn't have any issues around docks, in rough water, during the heat, and so on. If we would have had a crappy year, I would spend the $20k in a heart beat if it would make for a good year.

The only issue I had was during a 30 minute idle during the LOTO race weekend. That was 30 minute idle each way. My port motor loaded up and I had to change spark plugs. We started to have a similar issue during a long idle during Shootout weekend but I learned to idle on one motor while revving the other to keep that from happening.

that is exactly why efi is better.the fouled plugs at extended idle will no longer be an issue.but you can change a lot of spark plugs for the price of efi.

If you're getting enough extra fuel at idle to load up the engine and foul plugs, then you're also washing down the cylinder walls, which will increase wear and effect ring seal. Eventually leading to blow by and contaminating your oil with combustion particles expediting bearing wear. That means less time between overhauls, and a potentially more expensive freshen up when it's due. You may not need EFI, but at a minimum I'd have someone try to clean up your idle if they can do it without the engine stalling when it goes in gear..

+1...

[QUOTE=TeamSaris;4034861 I'm fairly certain the day will come when Carb engines are like engines with Points....a thing of the past.[/QUOTE]

I had to gap some points last week and I had to go to Ebay to find a book of matches.

I will lend you my dwell meter , just ask . :whistle:

+2

Bam, maybe power valve springs are weak and pulsing open with the blower lope at idle? That just came to me out of the blue, because I haven't tore into a big cfm holley in ages.

Saris, I'd love to see some screenshots from those latest DFI units. When Accel was developing that back in mid 90's, I was on the phone with them every day, till they finally sold me one before that first release. Man what a difference it was from burning chips and tricking a factory ECM. We made 850 hp from a small block with a fogger system using that new setup, and street driving was a dream.

Years later I noticed that same flat DFI serial plug on a friends race boat with factory Merc's. First words were, someone grab me a laptop and I'll show ya how to hack this sealed puppy... Just an all round good setup from day one, glad to see it remains popular today.

Its by far the best system we've used. We have used quite a few as well. Thruster, Gen7+, all fantastic. All our customers are thrilled with it. From 1500hp supercharged engines, to 450hp smallblocks.
Heres a shot of our bilge. Old school look, but idles, sifts, starts, backs timing out around 5400 (near our breakout speed), all kinds of stuff.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...psd12918b8.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps5292f460.jpg

We built a new engine for our OPA Class 6 boat and decided to go with fuel injection. The ability to program the fuel map from idle to wide open throttle was the key for us as we are bracket racing and are trying to maximize our performance at various rpm's. Jason Saris of Performance Marine/Saris Racing Engines in NY supplied the ACCEL DFI system and did the initial programming on their dyno. The final programming was done on Lake George with engine in the boat. The throttle body and injectors were supplied by Marren Fuel Injection in Oxford, CT. The key to success with fuel injection is dealing with people who have experience with the system you buy. There is quite of bit of programming needed to get the map just right for your application. We have been thrilled with how our system performed this past season.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]513416[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]513417[/ATTACH]

My setup. Does it look like a big deal to go EFI?

Thanks for the kind words Champ!

Give Jason a shout tomorrow, he'd be happy to talk to you about your setup.
518-644-3080

More pics. I'm not sure what to show because I don't know a thing about them.

In a nut shell, you will need an ACCEL Fuel Pump, Computer, Ignition System and return lines. The hardest part will be the fuel system rigging and ignition system change, although it really isnt that bad.
You could put EFI on those blowers, although it wont work as well as a Whipple style system for EFI.
At the very least, Jason can tell you what specifically to look for and take pictures of.
518-644-3080

Clean looking setup, love those old school stacks...

We considered using our DFI unit to trigger the nitrous system, instead used a progressive NOS controller to trigger the DFI timing retard. Worked flawlessly, spraying 300hp, dozens of bottles, and never so much as burned a electrode.

Bam, biggest issue I see with converting your [most beautiful] setup to multi-port is finding lower intakes with injector bosses. Those charge coolers make it a bit tight, but the rest should be pretty straight forward.

Nope, pretty straight forward. A Holley HP universal retrofit kit comes with a USCG approved ECU and wiring harness, all the sensors you need including wide band O2, a regulator, a set of weld in bungs, universal fuel rails, and a 2000cfm billet throttle body with gasket. - $2200. A second 2000cfm throttle body is $850 and depending on your power level, a set of 83 or 120# injectors will run you about $350. Your fuel pump might work, if not you'll need a USCG approved pump - $300. There's a couple options for ignition. You could leave your boxes and change the distributor for about $200, or my preference for a set up like yours would be to run a crank trigger. Throw in $500 worth of hose and fittings and that should take care of all your parts. Now for the install.. I'd keep your Kuhl carb adapters and have them modified for the injectors and rails, (a very easy job), you should be able to reuse your throttle linkage. Find a place to mount the ecu; because the Holley ecu is heat, vibration and water resistant, and CG certified, you can mount it right on the engine. There's two power, and two ground wire's to hook up, and a fuel pump trigger wire. Everything else is pretty much plug and play, plumb your fuel system and install distributor or leave yours in and run a crank trigger. You'll need to weld an O2 bung in your exhaust too. Every connector is clearly labeled and uses OEM quality weatherproof connections.

For basic set up on engines like yours, I like to have a guardian system that will reduce engine power and rpm if it detects a parameter that is out of range. They are totally user programmable and I usually set it up for oil pressure, fuel pressure, water pressure, coolant temperature, inlet air temp, and battery voltage. You can also do AFR if you leave the sensor in, and a bilge alarm. You can choose to trigger a caution light first at say 150 degrees coolant temp, and then reduce rpm to 1200rpm if the temp gets to 180. You can choose the ranges for each parameter and trigger a light and buzzer only, or reduce rpm too. As soon as the parameter is back in range, full power is available again. I'd add a couple knock sensors too, and that should take care of the basic engine safeguards. With total control of your timing and fuel curves, and additional tuning options available to protect against detonation, you will have the ability to truly control your engine and make it do exactly what you want, when you want. No bad habits.

I'm not trying to spam this thread, I only included prices because Bam has repeatedly asked how much it costs. There's lots of good systems and tuners out there. If you do take the plunge, make sure at the very least that you're getting a CG approved fuel system to keep the insurers happy, that it comes with all the features you'd want, any replacement part/component is available almost anywhere, and the guy doing it has experience with your specific application.

Thanks a bunch. I will call you today.

I wouldn't say that I specialize in EFI. However, I do build and tune more EFI engines than carb engines. That's because my customers want EFI much more often. I'm an engine builder and tuner, not a salesman. I don't specialize in selling stuff, I specialize in building and tuning marine engines, whatever they may be. It really doesn't matter to me. However, I will usually nudge a customer to EFI, especially if we are building from scratch. Depending on the engine, you can go to EFI for less than 2K over a carb on a scratch built engine. Most end up being about $2500-3K more than a good carb setup. A custom build carb that is going to work well is not cheap. You can do a top notch EFI setup, with ignition system, fuel system, sensors, etc for about 5K. If you want to add DIS, it will add a few dollars. The benefits are many. Not only do you get almost unlimited tuneability, but you have much needed protection. Any engine that is making the amount of power that we make, on the crappy gas that we use, that are run at high rpms for extended periods of time like we do, will certainly benefit from all the protection that it can get.
Eddie

I have worked with a few engines that have had some custom mail order carbs from big name carb shops, built for my friends applications. Unfortunately they were not anywhere near ideal as far as tune goes.

First set of carbs were on a roots blown 871 setup. The carbs came shipped with 82 jets squared, and 6.5 PVs front and rear. In order to get the AFR in the 12 range, they needed 90 jets in the primary. Carbs were not boost referenced. The power valve channel restrictions were drilled so large, that once the PV opened in the curve, the AFR plummeted into the low 10's at 4000RPM. At 3500RPM, they were at 12.3ish. Had they been run out of the box, the AFR at 3500, where the engine in this particular boat is starting to see a little boost, the AFR would have been in the 13's.

Another deal was a blow thru setup. The metering on these particular carbs were so off, that at 3000RPM, the AFR was in the 9's. By the time it got to 6000, the AFR was 13ish.

I guess what I am getting at, is I personally don't expect to buy a carb from a custom carb builder, bolt it on, and go. I know some have done it, but for what some of these custom carb builders charge, your better off getting a standard off the shelf carb and do your own tuning. I am a fan of the carbs from Quick Fuel. They offer so much in the way of tuneability. Not just air bleeds, but screw in idle feed restrictors, emulsion bleeds, power valve channel restrictions, big sight glasses, billet baseplates and metering blocks, and most of all, they look cool and aren't really much more if any than a stock holley, and usually cheaper than one of these ''custom worked over with a bunch of drill bit carbs". There is so much more to dialing in a carb than just jet swaps. If your gonna buy a carb, and want to get the cleanest most efficient setup, invest in a wideband, and prepare to spend some time tuning. Several years back, most installed a carb, did a wot pass, checked their plugs, and called it good. More people were running around with poor tunes, wasting fuel, washing rings, or burning pistons. While I think every engine should be dyno'd , a I feel tuning in the boat is also crucial, as the tune will change a bit.

Also, I have used the FAST wideband with good results, and the NGK Powerdex. AFX. The NGK can usually be found for around 250.00 if you shop around. Its simple easy to read, and can be calibrated for accuracy.

My opinion that's the bare minimum way to go nowadays, if EFI isn't in the budget. Otherwise, get your EFI ON! :)

Well it's not like it's your daughter, right? Priorities my friend!:eek::ernaehrung004:

Kinda of related to this topic. Several years ago I installed a Megasquirt 3 ECu on my SBC 86 Vette. The tuning program will auto calibrate the main fuel table to correspond to the desired AFR table. One of the new features is the warmup autotune. It looks at the desired AFR table and the correction factor based on coolant temp and corrects the warmup enrichment. So now I go outside and start the car and just let it warmup and it corrects itself. Show me a carb that can correct it's self.

That's what an electric choke does.......:coolcowboy: