Start to Finish: Building Our 50' Skater
12-20-2017, 01:29 PM
#1471
Registered
Tyson - if I had your skill set in machining and machine tools at my disposal (we made 99% of parts with manual mills, lathes and grinders) that you have there are so many ways to (maybe) accomplish what you are trying to do. I admire your grit with this, it just seems you are trying to go to the "engine experts" which makes sense. Although experts, I fear for you they have never built anything for the service duty you want it to do, diesel hot rod people are short duration at peak HP people IMO.
FYI - Early Cummins before the alum was good enough to take the heat of higher HP, they would make steel buttons that would go in the top of the pistons to prevent melting, literally a steel flat disc with threaded stud out the bottom and you machined a relief in the piston, drilled a hole and bolted it in - you could make crowns?
The twin turbo system Seatek made although it worked good you could make a better one, I know you are not building the engines yourself but take a page from Jim Fuelings Oldsmobile project and that is what you need to mimic to achieve your goals in my mind. I think you are smart enough and talented enough that you could modify the base Cummns engine structure better than most, all you need is a fuel guy to map and tune.
Cyl 3,4, 5 in the middle of the engine and not the ends - least amount of cooling there, don't know?
FYI - Early Cummins before the alum was good enough to take the heat of higher HP, they would make steel buttons that would go in the top of the pistons to prevent melting, literally a steel flat disc with threaded stud out the bottom and you machined a relief in the piston, drilled a hole and bolted it in - you could make crowns?
The twin turbo system Seatek made although it worked good you could make a better one, I know you are not building the engines yourself but take a page from Jim Fuelings Oldsmobile project and that is what you need to mimic to achieve your goals in my mind. I think you are smart enough and talented enough that you could modify the base Cummns engine structure better than most, all you need is a fuel guy to map and tune.
Cyl 3,4, 5 in the middle of the engine and not the ends - least amount of cooling there, don't know?
12-20-2017, 01:57 PM
#1472
Registered
12-20-2017, 05:13 PM
#1474
Registered
I've been trying for three years to get someone to build Monotherms for the Duramax. Mahle made up 3 test sets a few years back. Only one set was ever ran, and those wore a hole clean thru the block in a drag truck after about 15 passes. The other 2 sets are stuck on a shelf somewhere in the world. Mahle told me last year at PRI they would be producing them soon, then at UCC another engineer said it ain't gonna happen less someone orders 20 sets or more.
Lately I've been chatting with your current piston manufacture about building a Dmax Mono set for testing. Just something to stick in an engine, connect to the dyno, and crank the crap out of it till something blows. Supposedly the issue with Dmax design was skirt too short, whicht allowed the piston to touch the bore and trashed the block. SoCal Diesel built that engine. Then in 2015 they talked my friend into trying a custom stroker with Mahle forged aluminum pistons for his 850hp Dmax boat engine. Another 30k experiment, which lasted about 10 minutes. Socal and Mahle both claimed excessive heat caused all 8 pistons to crack, thanks for your $$, end of story...
Since no big demand for steel pistons in other motorsports, no big name company is willing to spend the R&D or tooling cost to produce em. However TRW produced the original Monotherms for early model 5.9L. Mahle currently produces a 5.9l version as we know, and stated they were going to release a 6.7L version couple years back. No idea if they ever did. But the newly appointed head of Mahle east coast operations, is fresh outa TRW . So I'd be on the horn asking for his input. Monotherm is the only proven solution to this exact issue.
An In Depth Look At Mahle?s Extreme Duty Diesel Monotherm Piston - Diesel Army
MAHLE Aftermarket North America | Matthew Lundh Appointed as New East Regional Manager for MAHLE Aftermarket Inc.
Lately I've been chatting with your current piston manufacture about building a Dmax Mono set for testing. Just something to stick in an engine, connect to the dyno, and crank the crap out of it till something blows. Supposedly the issue with Dmax design was skirt too short, whicht allowed the piston to touch the bore and trashed the block. SoCal Diesel built that engine. Then in 2015 they talked my friend into trying a custom stroker with Mahle forged aluminum pistons for his 850hp Dmax boat engine. Another 30k experiment, which lasted about 10 minutes. Socal and Mahle both claimed excessive heat caused all 8 pistons to crack, thanks for your $$, end of story...
Since no big demand for steel pistons in other motorsports, no big name company is willing to spend the R&D or tooling cost to produce em. However TRW produced the original Monotherms for early model 5.9L. Mahle currently produces a 5.9l version as we know, and stated they were going to release a 6.7L version couple years back. No idea if they ever did. But the newly appointed head of Mahle east coast operations, is fresh outa TRW . So I'd be on the horn asking for his input. Monotherm is the only proven solution to this exact issue.
An In Depth Look At Mahle?s Extreme Duty Diesel Monotherm Piston - Diesel Army
MAHLE Aftermarket North America | Matthew Lundh Appointed as New East Regional Manager for MAHLE Aftermarket Inc.
12-20-2017, 10:50 PM
#1475
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Reading this build thread today for whatever reason brought to mind a 1915 Cadillac print ad by Theodore F. McManus "The Penalty of Leadership".
Looking forward to following continued progress on Force of Nature in the future. Happy Holidays OSO.
“In every field of human endeavour, he that is first must perpetually live in the white light of publicity. Whether the leadership be vested in a man or in a manufactured product, emulation and envy are ever at work. In art, in literature, in music, in industry, the reward and the punishment are always the same. The reward is widespread recognition; the punishment, fierce denial and detraction. When a man’s work becomes a standard for the whole world, it also becomes a target for the shafts of the envious few. If his work be mediocre, he will be left severely alone – if he achieves a masterpiece, it will set a million tongues a-wagging. Jealousy does not protrude its forked tongue at the artist who produces a commonplace painting. Whatsoever you write, or paint, or play, or sing, or build, no one will strive to surpass or to slander you unless your work be stamped with the seal of genius. Long, long after a great work or a good work has been done, those who are disappointed or envious, continue to cry out that it cannot be done. Spiteful little voices in the domain of art were raised against our own Whistler as a mountback, long after the big world had acclaimed him its greatest artistic genius. Multitudes flocked to Bayreuth to worship at the musical shrine of Wagner, while the little group of those whom he had dethroned and displaced argued angrily that he was no musician at all. The little world continued to protest that Fulton could never build a steamboat, while the big world flocked to the river banks to see his boat steam by. The leader is assailed because he is a leader, and the effort to equal him is merely added proof of that leadership. Failing to equal or to excel, the follower seeks to depreciate and to destroy – but only confirms once more the superiority of that which he strives to supplant. There is nothing new in this. It is as old as the world and as old as human passions – envy, fear, greed, ambition, and the desire to surpass. And it all avails nothing. If the leader truly leads, he remains – the leader. Master-poet, master-painter, master-workman, each in his turn is assailed, and each holds his laurels through the ages. That which is good or great makes itself known, no matter how loud the clamor of denial. That which deserves to live – lives. “
12-23-2017, 11:10 AM
#1476
Registered
We have designed the overdrive box and then re-designed it, and then re-designed it again about 10 times. To start with I was going to try to use the gears and bearings out of some of the scs and Weismann boxes I have but then after designing it around them and not having the ratios I wanted and the overdrive housing being so long to accommodate the input and output shafts to make it work we decided to start over and design it from scratch. We went back and forth about having the shafts supported on the ends by bearings and the gears supported by the shafts (the way most are made, cheaper, easier) or doing it right and having the gears supported by bearings and the shafts floating (correct way to do it, more expensive). And we have completely designed it both ways and then have designed it with ball bearings and straight gears, to helical gears with taper bearings to now we are at straight teeth with pin roller bearings.
To make it as short as possible we made the inside spline of the gears the same as the transmissions input shaft. That way we can scoot the transmission forward with the shaft sticking into the gear to drive it. And I have the output about 2" to the right or left (depending on if its on the port or starboard engine) and 1" up so the driveshaft will be more in line.
We have went back and forth about what to do with cooling the oil. Pumps, drysump tanks, coolers, ect. or just splash oil and use the case to cool it. At this point we are going to put a fitting on the back of the box and front of the box with a bunch of little holes going through it and run the water through the aluminum case coming from the sea strainer to the water pump. There will be some fins on the aluminum in the oil bath and the whole aluminum case with oil sitting in it and running down the walls will cool the oil and I will not need to put in more pumps, tanks, coolers, hoses, ect. that could fail and make it more complicated. If it gets hot then I can add that stuff.
We have not started making any of it yet because I would not be able to have it done by the time the engines are ready. We are going to do it right and have the gears made by a helicopter gear box manufacture that will grind them, lap them in, ect.. And because I want to go ahead and run the engines and drives to make sure they are going to work even if I cannot go fast due to the high gear ratio I can still put time on them. If they do not work and I go a different direction I may not need the overdrive boxes or I might need a different design and I already have so much time and money in things that we built for it that were not using that I do not want to do that again.
Last edited by BigSilverCat; 12-23-2017 at 11:32 AM.
12-23-2017, 11:53 AM
#1477
Registered
Request:
Does anyone have any big diameter, big pitch props that I could borrow/try on the boat? I have a set of 17" dia by 40 pitch 5 blades but since the gear ratio is wrong I want to get the prop slip number as low as I can and to try different dia/blades to see what would get on plane better before I buy more props.
The ideal prop would probably be a 17 1/2" or bigger 40 pitch or bigger and 6 blade. Preferably a merc 1550 cut because that is what I will probably end up using. But if anyone had anything I could try that is bigger then what I have or possibly bigger dia but maybe 38-39 pitch and would let me try them it would be appreciated. If you were somewhere close you could bring the props and go in the boat with us to test them.
We will probably be testing on Lake Havasu. If Lake Utah by Salt Lake City is not froze over we will probably start with testing there but if it runs right we will take it to Havasu to put some time on it. Anyone that wants to come out when were there can go with us if there is an open seat. There will probably be a guy or two from Industrial Injection with there computers hooked up monitoring and tuning but there should be 2-3 open seats. Would Lake mead or Powell be worth going to for testing? Closer to Salt Lake City? Warm the first week or two in January?
Thank You,
Tyson
417-437-0665
Does anyone have any big diameter, big pitch props that I could borrow/try on the boat? I have a set of 17" dia by 40 pitch 5 blades but since the gear ratio is wrong I want to get the prop slip number as low as I can and to try different dia/blades to see what would get on plane better before I buy more props.
The ideal prop would probably be a 17 1/2" or bigger 40 pitch or bigger and 6 blade. Preferably a merc 1550 cut because that is what I will probably end up using. But if anyone had anything I could try that is bigger then what I have or possibly bigger dia but maybe 38-39 pitch and would let me try them it would be appreciated. If you were somewhere close you could bring the props and go in the boat with us to test them.
We will probably be testing on Lake Havasu. If Lake Utah by Salt Lake City is not froze over we will probably start with testing there but if it runs right we will take it to Havasu to put some time on it. Anyone that wants to come out when were there can go with us if there is an open seat. There will probably be a guy or two from Industrial Injection with there computers hooked up monitoring and tuning but there should be 2-3 open seats. Would Lake mead or Powell be worth going to for testing? Closer to Salt Lake City? Warm the first week or two in January?
Thank You,
Tyson
417-437-0665
12-23-2017, 08:44 PM
#1479
i would've had to pony up a bottle of jameson but no one took the bet. there was a lot of smack talk but no one bet against you.
looked at those drawings and almost asked a stupid question until i remembered rotation is determined in the drive.
not knowing what other contraption uses gears under high load for hours on end and them not failing is crucial, using a helicopter gear
manufacturer for your needs is a good idea.
along with the fins in the oil bath couldn't the gears combined with the interior shape of the case be it's own oil pump ?
if they're turning it's pumping.
(maybe the gears would be to tight). leave the inlet / outlet plugged for now, later if more cooling is needed, plumb it off to an inline
cooler, back to the case and right into the hottest bearings or gears.
for the sake of the project and sanity hopefully the injector guys will see something and be able to program the solution.
when i read "go in a different direction" makes me think it's already been researched, you have a sight picture and how things go
in havasu dictates whether or not you squeeze the trigger.
when are you testing ? don't forget the video ! good luck !
oh ! the gear box goes on the engine and the transmission gets over-drive as well, forgot about
diesel vs. gas rpm
looked at those drawings and almost asked a stupid question until i remembered rotation is determined in the drive.
not knowing what other contraption uses gears under high load for hours on end and them not failing is crucial, using a helicopter gear
manufacturer for your needs is a good idea.
along with the fins in the oil bath couldn't the gears combined with the interior shape of the case be it's own oil pump ?
if they're turning it's pumping.
(maybe the gears would be to tight). leave the inlet / outlet plugged for now, later if more cooling is needed, plumb it off to an inline
cooler, back to the case and right into the hottest bearings or gears.
for the sake of the project and sanity hopefully the injector guys will see something and be able to program the solution.
when i read "go in a different direction" makes me think it's already been researched, you have a sight picture and how things go
in havasu dictates whether or not you squeeze the trigger.
when are you testing ? don't forget the video ! good luck !
oh ! the gear box goes on the engine and the transmission gets over-drive as well, forgot about
diesel vs. gas rpm
Last edited by outonsafari; 12-23-2017 at 08:59 PM.
12-24-2017, 04:31 AM
#1480
Registered
overdrivebox look nice! Are there any space above the box? Another layshaft would reduse bearing and teeth stress to half. Weight are not double because gears and layshaft could be lighter. Then there will be zero radial forces at input and output shafts and loading come two teeth simultaneous. Roller bearing and straigh cut gears does not have much power loss. I think biggest powerloss and heating will come from oil viscosity. Oil is pressed between teeths so it warms up like hydraulic motors etc. dry sumping only reduce heat, but make it more complicated. Nice work, keep going! You inspire me continue my own fast diesel project.
