boatnt

iTrader: (1)

I guess I have to ask another questions,
you guys that give examples of all this boat manufactures that are hanging by a shoe string how do you actually know that they are hanging by a shoe string?,have you guys seen their Financial reports or are you just assuming?

Jupiter Sunsation

To clarify, it is a Yamaha four stroke and rarely runs at the top RPM. So I didn't intend to lump 400 HP supercharged 4 strokes in the lifetime reliability program! I will say the four stroke only stranded me once, optima battery failed. Replaced under warranty no charge. I/O finished every poker run it started but it did miss a couple due to issues prior to poker runs.

I think you are spot on with entry level buyers have no entry level boat to buy.......forget the entry level sport boat market. The issue for entry level used sport boats becomes financing and insurance. Someone just bought an older TG and just posted looking for coverage (3 quotes turned into denials once the underwriter looked at the details). So I'm sure that will happen eventually to older CC's but they have a broader insurance market to chose from.....more companies willing to insure.

boatnt

iTrader: (1)

what are you talking about? in 2004 a 35EX was going for 140-150k and you bought a 32 Sunsation which I believe Sunsation had a special on them for 80-90k, so not exactly the same price point,kind of like saying I was looking for a corvette but bought a Camaro.

besides the hull on the 32 sunsation you bought in 2004 had been out in production for 10 years? but that felt knew to you?

Jupiter Sunsation

I didn't post that but in the big picture I don't see anyone getting "rich" in the boat business even in boom times. Skip had money before he bought Cigarette, Reggie had a big real estate portfolio so I don't know that he ever relied on the boats for a paycheck.

Back in boom times, I did hear from a local dealership owner that a big manufacturer owed them almost a million dollars in warranty work. They didn't want to pay in cash but rather they wanted to discount future inventory. So we owe 1 million, how about we knock 100K off each of the next ten boats you order. It was a slippery slope since you knew the next ten boats were going to go up in cost.....which would dilute the value of the money owed.

This stunned me as the dealership was putting on a big show at boat shows/poker runs and the manufacturer was as well. The dealership has since closed and the owner is no longer in the boat business. It was a big sh!tshow when it went down and at one point he was facing criminal charges.

Jupiter Sunsation

Actually the 32 MCOB was a new model in 2004. Martin Marine (Glenn Martin, Tres's brother) was the dealer and they wanted 130K for a purple one. The 35 EX was at the show for 139,999 and I believe National was still selling them. I didn't love purple and bought a silver one instead. This was the Lauderdale Boat show in 2004. Those two boats were similar size, twin engine and could be pulled by the 2500 duramax I drove.

The breakout promotion was offered the 32 for 99K with small block power but didn't include the MCOB and I can't remember if that was offered in the winter of 04 or winter of 05. The 288 was 79K at the same time with a 496 HO.

As far as Corvette vs. Camaro, you do realize that a Z28 Camaro can cost more than a base model Corvette right?

offshorexcursion

iTrader: (5)

Seems like a common sense smart move.

The previous merger of the 3 brands together actually makes sense also in today's market.

I personally like some things about the PAST of each Baja, Donzi, and Fountain boats. There definitely is a following behind all three brands, and I believe there is a possibility for success in the future...........

.......IF they are all UPDATED, MODERNIZED, and competitively PRICED.....which unfortunately looks doubtful based on what we have seen so far.

I am optimistic though because we need more options out there!

iamjoe

IMHO I think of there is positive movement in any business, its a win. Its positive movement. How many times have people purchased a struggling business (boating related or not) and turned it into something good. Maybe they have a 'better' idea of how to operate or a better labor force. or whatever. I don't think one can compare the cost of new boats in 2004 to now. It seems irrelevant on a couple of levels. The model year is 12 YEARS ago. The lamination improvements alone make a big part of the cost increase. In terms of quality, I would find it hard to believe that the quality of most 2004 model boats was close to what it is now. Fit and finish, build quality, interior design and materials are all better and higher quality in most cases; Its more expensive on a per-foot basis to produce a similar boat than is 2004. Its obvious that to participate in the boating hobby at the level a lot of OSO members do, the prices will all be higher because the people want the newest and best. To build the newest and best; the costs go up. What does it cost to produce a Timex compared to Rolex? I wonder what the cost of a 2004 merc 900 poker run motor was compared to the new merc 1100?

RollWithIt

Im gonna defend some of what Jupiter Sunsation has to say in that the market has shifted and gotten out of control. That has caused a shrinkage (demise?) of the offshore go fast. My family has been in the boating business since 1965. I grew up around boats and have been an owner since 2000. Currently on my third boat, low numbers compared to some on here. But, it is a used 1998 Baja 36 Outlaw. This is something that fit into my budget as I am part of the dying middle class in American society. That, in my opinion, is a large part of the problem. There is no longer a large buyer market for middle priced sport boats. So the manufacturers have shifted to making more extravagant motors, interiors, paint jobs, etc.... So now the new boats are 300, 500, 800 thousand dollars. There just is not enough interested buyers in the even the wealthy end of society that wants to spend that money on a boat. Especially a high hp boat that requires a lot of work. Just like in cars, the more performance you squeeze out of something, the higher the maintenance cost. A oil change on a Ferrari is much more expensive than on a camero.

These are the two biggest things, in my opinion, to affect new boat sales. A ever shrinking middle class and ever rising costs on new boats. Even without the revised designs. So you have more people buying wake boats, cc boats and stuff like that which is priced where the go fast boats used to be priced. Not to mention, these boats are more reliable and the egg beaters get better fuel consumption.

While looking at the automotive market is a way to get some ideas, the boating market is different. The automotive manufacturers can throw millions of dollars into design and development of new models because they will sell thousands of them once on the market. Boats are low volume. So costs have to be kept in check.


Another thing, then my rant will be over LOL. The boat culture has changed. Back in the eighties and nineties, there was a populare boating culture with shows like Miami Vice and I also remember watching boat racing on NBC on the weekends here in Pittsburgh. No where close to the ocean. Now, it just is not the same. Not to say it can not be saved. It has just changed.

My suggestion, if somebody made a nice, moderately priced performance boat that had nice quality and reliable fun power, they would be able to tap into a buyer market who currently is forced into the used boat market. But, the product would have to be nicer than the used boats at the same price point to attract that buyer. I wish the best for all the manufacturers out there as I love this sport and plan on participating for a long time.

jusabum

If Reggie Fountain couldn't keep the business alive, then not many can.

Boats have rarely sold for the right price, AND have been underpriced compared to the cost to build. And people think they are over-priced...LOL. Not many understand this business, and the phenomenal costs involved to build a boat. And that is why so many have come and go.

We had the easy money of the 70's and 80's. Then the boom in the mid to late 90's that started many boat companies and kept the industry alive. But most anyone who was in the business, if they tell you the truth, will tell you how they needed the next deposit to finish the last boat. Or dug into their savings. Most hid this from the consumers, and a few got caught doing it.

With the exception of Nortech and one or two others, this industry has financially ruined many people.

In this industry, NOTHING is as it appears.

Interceptor

As an investor I'd go with Proline before the other three.