found this: 38 cougar with 2 sets of motors etc..
 

sounds like a good deal to me .......... Check this out :




This is the ex Budweiser boat and comes with ASD 8's, Myco Dually wheel trailer, 2 keith black 1000 hp kinsler motors, (2) Mercury 900 EFI motors, 6 crash boxes,(2 are scs) 8 sets of headers(4 stelling, 4 Imco) Props, .6 spare efi computer boxes and other parts. This boat won't last long!

> http://www.searace.com/cougar38.html

That seems like allot of boat for that kind of money. Although I'm sure those motors run on race gas which is a little rich for my blood.

SEEMS LIKE ALOT OF MOTORS FOR THE MONEY... Hmmmm
I WONDER IF THEY ARE FRESH???

was this also the "Systems" boat?? Bob Kaiser, right?

cool boat.why is it so cheap?

1. the buyer needs to know that there are no classes currently in which this boat would be legal....that it would also be competitive in ( APBA, and or SBI).....I believe it is only legal as a Superboat in SBI and would run against the Bacardi rocketship in APBA.

2. The boat, if memory serves, is not the old Systems boat, but rather the old Dirty Laundry boat.......and......at best, you're talking about 13 year old aluminum here.

3. The engines are old Open class motors and are high maintenance (one race per rebuild)

4. Don't get me started on those drives.......... With the lack of forward recovery and lift in that hull, why would you do without "up" trim?

5. As a collector's item it is a good value......but will not be considered a true antique (and displayable in the Vintage Regatta's) for at least another 10 years.....a long time to store something that big.

6. A complete re-rig as a pleasure boat would cost as much as a new 36 Skater......without the speed and handling.


Other than that...........................:(


T2x

T2x: you are completely right but even if you think the components on this boat(engines,kinsler inj,drives etc) I believe it is still cheap.

I believe this boat was ('94 to '97 or so) owned and raced by Jim Agles (then from Illinois, recently rumored to be living in the Ft Myers area). Sounds great, looks good, but not really competitive in today's racing world. A hell of a headturner as a pleasure boat at a great price though!:eek: :cool:

The boat is now in Calif. and was raced in the POPRA
in one of the outlaw classes, it was season champion
a few years ago.

These boats were designed to run with Arneson drives
and with their new rocker plates ride very level.

Errol Lanier was throttle man for the boat and has first hand information as to it's condition.(954 922-1967)

The hull is pretty easy to convert to seat 4, drill out the rivets, move the canopies foward and seat 2 in tamden.

The point is Tx2 is not a fan of the Arneson drives, reguardless of hull...

buyer beware
 

make sure you are dealing with a reputable seller

Hey Boatless:

It's T2x not tx2....and..I love Arnesons on turbine powered Skaters when they are fixed and not steerable.........

They have no up trim, unless you consider raising the prop out of the water "Trimming".

That boat was not designed for Arnesons......It started life with Mercruisers.....and most of the aluminum Cougars ran M/C's as well.

There is, in some cases, extra speed to be had with surface drives due to less parasitic loss in the driveline NOT the hydrodynamic design. The problem is that when they are steerable the race boats I've watched for literally hundreds of hours from above "wandered" all over the place...(lack of directional predictability). At the old racing speeds of 80-100 mph this was not a lethal issue...at 150 mph it is....hence the "fixed applications you see today.

They do handle horsepower better and require less maintenance than a Mercruiser...........................regardless, I wouldn't own a pair of steerable ones on a bet...............but I don't like Pistachio Ice Cream either.

So good luck to the buyer of this wobbly old bird.

T2x

So, all turbine powerd Skaters have fixed Arnesons? And only turbine powered with Arnesons are good.

So you have driving experience in a boat with Arnesons, gas or turbine powered, fixed or steerabe correct?

What surface Drive has positive trim? Even a SSM#6 when mounted with the X dimension 3" above the bottom has no positive trim correct?

I find it hard to belive that all boats with Arnesons "wander" all over the place as you put it, as the yachts seem to be stable and have no problems. Same for the Catamaran's.

I can see that a rudder when placed farther rearward on a boat can have a better mechaical steering advantage than a steering rudder place farther forward, but only at speeds that make the rudder work. But how does the rudder keep the boat from "wandering"?

Boatless:

"So, all turbine powerd Skaters have fixed Arnesons? And only turbine powered with Arnesons are good."

So......You can't read....never said all Skaters with turbines have fixed Arnesons...........you did.

"So you have driving experience in a boat with Arnesons, gas or turbine powered, fixed or steerabe correct?"

So............As a matter of fact I have.........but I'm too old for that now.

"What surface Drive has positive trim? Even a SSM#6 when mounted with the X dimension 3" above the bottom has no positive trim correct?"

So.......... SSM's change the angle (and rake) of the prop when trimmed. Arneson's merely raise the prop.

"I find it hard to belive that all boats with Arnesons "wander" all over the place as you put it, as the yachts seem to be stable and have no problems. Same for the Catamaran's"

So............I suppose you do......."find it hard to belive"....or at least understand......... I was referring to race boats.......on yachts they only make docking difficult.........by the way...you have a small spelling problem as well.

"I can see that a rudder when placed farther rearward on a boat can have a better mechaical steering advantage than a steering rudder place farther forward, but only at speeds that make the rudder work. But how does the rudder keep the boat from "wandering"?"

So.....The wandering is in the drives, as they move back and forth( kind of like an old Pontiac front end), can't give you all the reasons why(originally it was in the hydraulic tie bar.....but after that was corrected the "wanders" remained).........but they do. Rudders are fixed and with fixed drives there is no impetus for "wandering".

So..........long


T2x

hehe . . you tell 'em Tx2 . . .i mean T2x . . . :cool:

:)

Tx2, please step out of the 80’s and into the new millennium. What ever happened in the 80’s is more ancient than I am and doesn’t apply to the progress nor advancements made over the part 20 years both in terms of boats and hydraulic steering. You need to re-familiarize yourself with boating, something other than a secondhand outboard 28’ Skater in order to make yourself more objective and less cynical.

Question still has not been answered, have you yourself or other alter egos driven a new modern Skater or other catamaran boat with steerable or fixed Arnesons? If so, which one?

Me either, but I have seen a few skaters with Arneson drives that are steerable and the people never complain of the issues that you continuously hold so dearly to.

“Jet Set” out of New Jersey seems to be an anomaly to you, “Sorcerer” to name another. While watching a Speedvision race, I never noticed the “Honker Cut” boat wandering around in the races like an old Pontiac, bet they had a rudder though hugh? Speedvision even aired footage of the boat that started this thread. Running well by all definitions and it did not appear to be plagued by the problems you have brought up. ????

Be a man and just admit you are a Mercury guy to the bone, its nothing to be ashamed of.

Boatless is also dickless.

Honker Cut was the worst running Skater in history.

Wonder why?

Did you see the great video of their deadly stuff?

Name ONE Anrneson boat that was ever competitive for more than a short drag-race.

ApachePete: arnesons were the strongest and fastest hi-perf drives till I read your reply.I am confused....

I dont know how honker cut run but lets say ''Honker Cut was the worst running Skater in history. ''are you sure the reason was drives?

do you have any other bad running cat example with arneson drives?

hey, Catmando, the listing of that boat is probably bogus. The engines up on the racks are missing the heads. The listing entity has probably never been within 500 miles of the boat.

Boatless:

I'm not living in the 80's, I'm living in the 60's. But most of the speed techniques that are being "introduced" today actually originated in the 30's............

The last time I flew over an Arneson equipped race boat was 2001.......it still wandered and bow steered. I have driven many of the surface driven boats and never felt stable.

I am a Mercury OUTBOARD guy to the bone......I don't see how that makes me a man..... My Avatar and user name told you that.....long before your demand ......but as I said....you can't read.

I don't dislike Arneson drives so much as I prefer true trimmable stern drives. The racers using surface drives today primarily use fixed drives............If the trimmable steerable ones were better....they would use them instead.......They don't for a good reason......... Look up Rube Goldberg in your encyclopedia.

When we built custom surface drives for the 4 engine Jesse James 48 footer in (gasp) 1987........they were fixed...with a rudder.......in spite of the fact that we could have spec'd Arnesons for a lot less effort.....by the way Howard Arneson (a real bright guy and a gentleman) designed his drives in 1980.....obviously before your time........and 7 years before Fred Kiekhaefer designed what is today the #6 Drive ( It was originally the "K" drive prior to the purchase of Kiekhaefer Aeromarine by Mercury........but you knew that)

Honker Cut with Arnesons was an uncompetitive, nasty boat.
Having been an announcer on Speedvision for years, I can assure you that every boat is presented in the best light, true criticisms were/are never introduced. If, for instance, a boat is 2 laps behind the leader......it is described as "fighting for the lead in a close second place". If Honker Cut averaged (and it did)in a POPBRA event....oh......20 mph less than a competitive Super Cat in a comparable National race.... You would never hear that. Those shows are edited weeks after the event and a spin is put on them based on 20/20 hindsight. If you had attended many of those events you would realise that most of them were nothing more than parades with vast distances separating the boats....and it becomes an "editing" challenge to create drama, talent and performance.

FYI........ in many cases "Here's boat number PZ-589....... WoW!....Look at those guys go!" actually means "Hooray, we finally found somebody on plane.".....especially in the regional telecasts.

Come to think of it, since my voice, at times, carried those silly messages, I apologise for misleading the general public. But what the heck , I got paid and it seemed to make the racers happy;)

T2x

great info T2x. Its always a pleasure reading you text!

One final thought.


Objectivity and Cynicism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.


T2x

I worked on that boat with Erroll Lanier at Lake X right before the Point Pleasant race in 91-92 era at that time it had 5 drives on it instead of Arnesons.....Sean

Apache Pete I think the Excalibur boat owned and driven by Bob Kaiser and throttled by Erroll Lanier had Arnesons on it but I believe that was before MERCURY had the 6 drive and it had the new super wazoo 5 drive with the McClaren turbo engines and they turned the 5 to rubber in a matter of minutes at Lake X....anyway point being he was fast until he broke mostly engine stuff but I do not know how it handled overall...personally I like the fixed trimmable drive with a rudder or trimmable stern drive.

but thats just me I who also thinks that the old Apaches should still race in sometype of class be it vintage or what......Sean

T2x . . you brought up somthing i had wondered about. i thought i saw an add long time ago of the drive that is now the merc #6 drive and it was being sold by Kiekhaefer but wasnt sure if my memory was correct. was that the one that was also called the "gorilla" drive. i seem to remember that from an add too. thanks. :cool:

by the way, what year did Kiekhaefer introduce the drive anyway.

sean- a vintage class would be cool. i would love to see these old wave crushers run'in. :cool: :cool:

Kaiser
 

Yes, he was VERY fast: we raced against him for 2 years.

But that's my point: very fast in a "drag race/straight line," but not a consistent winner, for a variety of mechanical reasons.

The fault of the drives? I don't know, but I didn't see other guys with unlimited budgets (Joe Mach) putting them on their new boats . . . and those boats actually finished and WON.

Look at some of the old NNRT tapes pf the races that Systems ran in, and you'll see what Rich means when he talks about a boat being all over the place and bow steering (eg, Coco Beach 1991). In fact, Rich was the announcer.

kiekhafer made what is now the # 6.........late 87 early 88 i think

Mr. Luhrs, the Honker Cut Marine boat in 2001' was a Mercury Powered 36' Skater with SSM#6 Drives that ran in the National race.

I think that honker cut marine was acutually the fountain 36. That was after they flipped the arenson drive boat.

I think !!!!

Spun out the Arneson and flipped the Mercury

Cool stuff