all depends on what you mean by "handle"...talking about speeds only...the flat deck is very heavy! but for a poker run with open ....... in hand.....i'll take the flat deck any day:D ....plus the engines sound WHICKED!

At least we agree.
 

Audacity, at least we agree on that aspect of it. If I had the choice of taking a 2 hr. pleasure cruise on a Cig, or a new style boat, I would definetly take the Cig.

As far as beating the Cig in rough water? I donno about that? That I would have to see to believe. Although, you're talking about two different boats.

I think if the Cig had the same top speed as your AT and both were good drivers I think the Cig would win. Were not talking 3 footers. We're talkin 4-6ers. The more time you spend in the water the faster you run.

Older boats ran "thru" the water, new boats run on top of it. Thats why they were so good in the real snotty stuff. Then again, I never ran in an AT so I don't know how they run in rough water.

I was actually looking at one that had twin 600's Staggered. The boat looked pretty neat. I have to put it on my list of things to do.

My 32 AT averaged just under 71mph in Miami in 99 in 6-8's with stone stock 500hp's 4 12" subs complete stereo and cabin.

actually F2-80 is a scarab...and there is no way in hell my 32 AT would touch F2-80 in any water with the same people runn'n it!...even with things dialed in and peped up...o -by the way the 38KV is a scarab as well.

true 6-8's in a race???

Here is a great pic. from the 1979 Miami race heading to Bimini.My father is running the M-24 28 Pantera with triple outboards and John Carbonell from SBI fame is in the yellow boat in the Excalibur 30 footer in the background P-24.The P-22 is a 24 Pantera named Slingshot.The Intimidator is a 30 foot Sutphen anmd Pure Insanity is a West Coast Scarab.Gene Whip past APBa President was running this boat.Harry-o was a 32 foot cobra and M-7 was Bob Sheers 27 Magum.

This picture was taken at Goverment Cut here in the Port of Miami.


Regards, JO


P.S. My father agrees with T2X that the first pictures posted are not from 1977 more like 79-80 time rame.

Panther,,,,once again thanks for the racing leason...

JO...your boats are one of my ALL TIME favorites!!! do you have an answer for those that think the boats are "less strong" today then they were???...are yours???

This is the correct pic


JO

NO! MAYBE 4-5 with an occasional hole! Another line of his continuous and notorious B.S.:rolleyes:

damn...it's get'n hot in here!!!LOL

Hi Audacity,

The Fiberglass materials today have come along way from the 70s and early 80s.

I think the race boats today are built ultra light to test what we can get away with.The laminates are definetely stronger and resin quality is much better now to.

Back then the boats would be (racing way offshore) so in away it was necessary to have more glass thickness to make them stiffer-stronger.You could not afford to build them too light since you normally would run in whatever sea condition was up for the day and would be far from land most of the time.

That is the reason you would be required to carry a life raft and drinking water.

In approximately 1980 a few of the Open class teams began to show up at races with a flat water boat and a rough water boat. A Deep V and a Cat.

The race coarses now are much closer to land and now do laps with safety personel right above you or near by so it allows for race boats to be built lighter and that makes them faster.It takes horsepower to push weight to get speed.

This information is based on facts from My father and some memories of mine while I was a kid.

I remember quite a few race boats from the 70s and 80s being delaminated from heavy abuse in big water also.

Regards, JO:D

JO, Thanks
 

Hey JO, Thanks for your input. I am in agreement with you. Who would know better?? The old boats were built like Brick Sh$T Houses.

In regards to the year of the race. I am too young to be able to know personally what year the race was in. It may very well be 79?? I have about 60-70 pictures and they are all jumbled together. :rolleyes:

A few of the pictures have the year printed on the back of the picture. One of the pictures that has the year printed on the back is of the boat Satisfaction. I also have a bunch of pictures of Harry O, Pure Insanity, and El Boss.

There is no doubt that boats are being built better, along with better materials. One obvious difference is the use of Biaxial Cloth, and Vinyl Ester resins.. But I feel they have been so maxed out that some of them are like egg shells.
.

32 A/T 6 to 8s 71mph? I too find that hard to believe, for how long?:rolleyes:

also did you know it did 71mph with 5.7 liters and alpha drives!!:p

just busting your chops ssherman, don't get mad:p

coverage is poor too
 

Even the coverage of the races is poor. The helcopters have to fly so far away from the boat, that I feel like I have tunnel vision watching the race.

Those were the Good Ole days The Classes were Production, Modified, Sport ,Open That’s all Folks ! Real easy to understand!:D

yep,

coverage not good at all, not like old days where the helicopter was right down on the deck!!!

its sad what offshore racing has become:(

There was also open class II which was usually single engine boats which ran against the "Open" class boats.
Does anyone remember when "Super Toad", a single engine 28' Cigarette, open class II, broke 1/2 mile frome the finish during the first "Benihanna", and handed the win to "LaTortuga"- a 44' MSV?:D

NOPE! I was driving unfortunately. They were maybe 4-6's with an occassional hole. Additionally, we ran out of gas because a certain individual decided he wanted to stay light. I advised against it, to no avail, but that just shows lack of experience on the decision makers part.:rolleyes: Sorry that you guys were mislead with water conditions and speeds. Glad you saw right through it and recognize that it is not really possible to consistantly run those speeds in that boat. The ride was definitely IMPRESSIVE though! As always, I just like to set the record straight with the truth.:)

DUDE you need to get out of the lake some time and learn how to measure waves :D:D In what I would call 6-8's you would not be going 10MPH let alone 70 unless they were swells coming in from a hurricane :D:D

we have and did race in those conditions in cape cod this year...the average speed of the super cats were about 71ish in TRUE 6-8's....funny people were calling them 12+!!! actually the F2 boats were some of the fastest average speeds of the day at upper 50's....the destruction of the boats was amazing...hulls,drives gone!, engines cracked!, busted mounts, transome ass all busted up....a damn long list of scrap!!

That Sucks!
 

George, That totally sucks! They broke down a half mile from the finish line??? I would have been so pissed!!! They could almost taste the win I bet? To bad they didn't have a couple of Oars to paddle across the finish line.

One thing my sister can vouge for was when "Liguidator" won and showed up at our house with the trophy in hand.

Stay Light?
 

Shane,

Why would he want to stay light on a day like that? You need all the weight you can get on a day like that, along with smaller props, maybe a water tank?

Tell me more about the AT's ride. I was thinking about that boat cause it has a higher freeboard, and a deeper V. How would you compare it to say, a Cigarette, or Outerlimits in rough water. Not so much speed I am looking for, COMFORT?

Panther,

Your thoughts on adding weight were EXACTLY what mine were. Unfortunately, he is/was a novice who represented himself as having much more experience. Having been racing for 5+years at that point I tried to offer my perspective on set up but it fell on deaf ears. Additionally, they were NOT 6-8's, like I said more like 4-6's at best with maybe a hole or two thrown in here and there for good measure. To further add insult to injury, his lies and deceptions had only begun at that point and I found out later that the trail behind him was extensive. He si a good salesman though, to quote the owner of a big marina on LOTO, he can sell ice to an eskimo!

Nonetheless, the boat rode phenominally well. I cannot really compare it to an Outerlimits since I have never ridden in one, however, I can tell you this, we were first to the first turn but were quickly passed by an Outerlimits and Cigarette. They were much larger boats so I am not so sure if it is a good apples to apples comparison as the 37 AT would have faired much better I would assume. All in all for a 32 footer it is EXTREMELY impressive in both ride and speed. I have a friend with a Formula 312 and I would venture to say that the AT rides MCUH MUCH BETTER than the Formula. I hope this helps.

Shane:cool:

and look at that i know where you can buy one CHEAP!:D

I wasn't trying to bust chops, but, the 6 to 8s sounded a little too big for that speed. Thanks for the clarifaction:D

I took no offense! I don't know about ssherman. He's been pretty quiet on the subject. Not surprised though. Ever notice how always references Miami in '99? That's because he only raced a few other times.:rolleyes:

:p

COUPLE OF OLD O/S PIXS AND MY 2 CENTS
 

Found these in one of my old albums.
1974 Strohs Grand National run on Lake Erie out of the Cedar Point Amusement park in Sandusky Ohio.
My parents docked a cruiser there at the time and as a 15 yr old, I got drool on a bunch of the boats:)
They ran that race there I think 2 years. I remember all the pre race hype was that they would set all kind of speed records on that little ass body of water.
They were misstaken:D
Destroyed several boats sunk a couple as I recall from the rough water. I think the first race was running about 6 footers. But in Lake Erie they are about 10 feet apart:eek:
Remember reading the reveiw in power Boat and they called it "the race on the stormy mud puddle"! (the old timers on our dock told me that would happen)
High light was meeting and shaking the hand of Bob Nordskog.
That was "real Off Shore"!
How can they call todays races Offshore??
It should be called "Inshore".
Hell, they race in rivers and bays!
Half of the races I've seen on TV, the idiot announcers/commentators say their running in 8 to 10 seas and it's calm enough I could run my 17' Hydrostream WFO!
Yes the new boats are faster, they're also way lighter since they don't have to be as strong as they used to.
Walk up to a 25 yr old Donzi, Cigarette, or Magnum and whack it on the side and then do it to a new boat. Big freakin difference!
You could drive a Buick into the side of one of the old boats and you'd total the car.
The best Offshore (real) that I've seen recently is the Great Lakes Silver Cup series.
Loved the race out of I think either Cleveland or Lorain where they (TV commentators) were talking to one of the factory class guys and asked him about the points leading Fountain in his class.
The guy laughed at them and said, "wait till we get out from behind the break wall".
He was right.
The Fountain pulled him hard in the bay behind the wall. Soon as they hit open water it was all over.
Real offshore is (was) Bob Nordskog, Don Arronow, Sandy Satoulo (sp?) and Betty Cook. Those people would all laugh at todays sport!
Oh well, I never did take that class on how to win friends and influence people!
Hope you enjoy the pix.
Gary

another
 

The Bounty Hunter!

another
 

Slap Shot!

Not Big enough
 

Audacity, THanks, I appreciate the offer.

The thing is I already have a 30ft boat. I wouldn't be happy moving up 2 ft. And besides my boat is paid for in full, so I can sit on it for a while if I want. It's not costing me anything.

I need something in the 35-38ft. range ($100K). There is a 36' Apache for sale in CA that looks nice. Like Shane said, he was passed by an Outerlimits, and a Cigarette in the rough.

another
 

How about a Bertram??
Yeah baby, thats OffShore!!

last one
 

Sandy Satoulo's Copper Kettle

Re: Not Big enough
 

If you make it out to California to look at the Apache, which is nice(I've been on it), you should take a look at my boat. It's a 1992 Cafe Racer.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/sh...threadid=27564

Nice!
 

Hey Twin,

Nice Pics! When I have time I will scan more of my old pics.

Thanx Panther
 

Still love seeing and reading about what the guys went through in the old days.
Gary

nice pics: twin

any body have more?!?

Bertram?
 

So what ever happened to Bertram anyway? They were so competitive back in the day. They were even more competitive than Magnum, and Donzi for a while.

Twin, The pic of the Bertram is pretty trick. If looks pretty advanced for its time? It reminds me of some of the new fountain raceboats with the exhaust exiting the side of the boat. I looks like it has a stagger settup. Put a Canopy on that boat, and it looks like a modern day boat.

Here is a pic. of Betty Cooke and My Father in a 24 Pantera.


JO