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Naturally aspirated, HP’s per Cu. In.???
As a life long, ate up, internal combustion gear head, I have always followed that math. Want to impress me? Show me that math. I grew up thinking that anything at or above 1:1 is good. As in, 500 Cu in = 500 HP is good. IMO, remains true today. Just watched a Top Gear rerun where they tested a Ferrari that had a naturally aspirated 6.5 liter/403 Cu in V-12 making 800 HPs! Thats 1.985 HP per Cu In! Bern a while since I paid a lot of attention to this but I still know that number is up there! Who can think of what, non race, 4 stroke (a 2 stroke w/an expansion chamber easily surpasses 2:1) that beats this? Nothing against forced induction but start w/this then screw in a pair of turbos 😎 |
How about Aston Martin's new Valkyrie V12? Makes 1000 HP from 6.5L @ 11,000 RPM - 2.52 HP per cu in.
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Our Super cat engines are 509 cuin and in theory make 800 HP (unless your NZ-1, AMH, WHM, performance, ect. there's probably make 2000 hp) So around 1.6 hp per cuin but that is on 93 octane fuel and ours lived a whole season of testing and running.
I do have a 2 stroke that makes close to 6 hp cuin n/a and a rotary that makes close to 7 hp cuin. And a diesel that makes 4 hp cuin but on lots of boost. |
I agree, while growing up 1hp/cuin was doing well, Sixteen Power is claiming 1400hp from its LS based V16
854 cuin 1400 hp is 1.64ish In the 90's GM's LT small block was hot stuff at less than 1 hp/cuin And Fords' 5 point nothing (5.0) was about the same in a lighter package |
Motorcycle engines are pumping out 200hp at 1 liter, or 61cu, so they are 3.27hp per cube, reliable for 50k miles and idles like a *****cat. Once you go overhead cams it’s a whole new ballgame. |
Good stuff. Is the Aston normally asperated? The Super Cat post is funny and wayyy impressive. Great numbers and a full season on those motors is damned impressive. Forgot about the bikes. The lighter the load, the wilder they can be. |
I thought the first time a car company did 1HP /cu was the injected 283 vette engine in 1957??? |
Wildman, that sounds right. I have an addition. Pro Stock drag cars. 500 Cu in’s @ 1500 HP = 3 per. I remember thinking they were about top of the food chain. |
Manufacturers made more power in the 50's and 60' before emission control. Their solution to meet standards was to retard camshaft timing and decrease to static compression so low most engines in the 70's and early 80' were anchors
for example to Ford 460 was mid 300's in 1970 (D0VE) and dropped to 200 a couple years later |
Originally Posted by resurrected
(Post 4682335)
Manufacturers made more power in the 50's and 60' before emission control. Their solution to meet standards was to retard camshaft timing and decrease to static compression so low most engines in the 70's and early 80' were anchors
for example to Ford 460 was mid 300's in 1970 (D0VE) and dropped to 200 a couple years later |
Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix
(Post 4682336)
Yes ,,, lived it hel late 70's vettes have less HP then most motorcycles do now. But now they are doing way better. The HP and drive ability are something now a days. WHo even thinks about changing plugs, worried that they car will start in the cold, etc.
I can't even remember the last time I pumped the pedal (non race car) prior to turning the ignition in the cold |
No doubt that technology has come to the rescue. I had muscle cars in the 70’s/80’s and when the EPA put the screws to them I thought it was over. When I sold my 440 six pack Super Bee I had no idea we’d now be able to buy something faster and......, has AC, power seats, cruise, gets 30 mpg etc. After owning a deisel VW and reading about all the hybrids I wonder about the gas motors which no one is covering. There is now an engine in production with variable compression ratio. One of the car mags does an annual contest called Engine Masters that is one of my favorite reads. They establish a base line and let the builders go. What some of these guys come up with is amazing. I am a huge fan of turbos but still want to see what you can come up with w/o it. One of my hero’s, Smokey Yunick used to come up w/**** that just made people scratch their head. I just went through the Garlits museum too and to see that progression in performance is amazing. I remember building my 440 Chrysler and reading that the wrist pins were offset in the pistons to reduce noise but increased friction/reduced power. Direct Connection said to swap them from side to side, which I did. W/all those tricks we guessed power at 500 from 440 Cu ins or 1.14 per 🤓 |
Ain't it cool!
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I race a Chev Cavalier in Chump Car endurance series with a couple friends
2.4L (145ish cuin) Ecotec naturally aspirated, stock internals, cold air intake added makes 160 at the wheels with a tune. No idea what the parasitic loss would be It came out of a scrap car with who knows how many miles on it, and we have beaten the daylights (usually 7 or 8 hour races x2 in a weekend) out it for one or two race weekends a year for 5 years, no issues whatsoever |
Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic
(Post 4682353)
No doubt that technology has come to the rescue. I had muscle cars in the 70’s/80’s and when the EPA put the screws to them I thought it was over. When I sold my 440 six pack Super Bee I had no idea we’d now be able to buy something faster and......, has AC, power seats, cruise, gets 30 mpg etc. After owning a deisel VW and reading about all the hybrids I wonder about the gas motors which no one is covering. There is now an engine in production with variable compression ratio. One of the car mags does an annual contest called Engine Masters that is one of my favorite reads. They establish a base line and let the builders go. What some of these guys come up with is amazing. I am a huge fan of turbos but still want to see what you can come up with w/o it. One of my hero’s, Smokey Yunick used to come up w/**** that just made people scratch their head. I just went through the Garlits museum too and to see that progression in performance is amazing. I remember building my 440 Chrysler and reading that the wrist pins were offset in the pistons to reduce noise but increased friction/reduced power. Direct Connection said to swap them from side to side, which I did. W/all those tricks we guessed power at 500 from 440 Cu ins or 1.14 per 🤓 |
Yes, the Aston Martin is NA. Design team led by a Formula 1 engineer, so that's where the tech is coming from. Ten years ago Formula 1 used a 2.4L NA V8 that made 750 HP @ 18,000 RPM. That's about 5 HP/CID, but let's not get into that.
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Interesting. And yeah, F-1 is in another world. Too bad they’re freagin hybrids now.
Originally Posted by tomcat
(Post 4682369)
Yes, the Aston Martin is NA. Design team led by a Formula 1 engineer, so that's where the tech is coming from. Ten years ago Formula 1 used a 2.4L NA V8 that made 750 HP @ 18,000 RPM. That's about 5 HP/CID, but let's not get into that.
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Originally Posted by Wildman_grafix
(Post 4682297)
I thought the first time a car company did 1HP /cu was the injected 283 vette engine in 1957??? |
Originally Posted by resurrected
(Post 4682363)
I was fortunate enough to get a ride in a Hellcat Charger around Calabogie race track, it sold me on the ability of production cars to impress.
It's great to live in the future! |
Originally Posted by TomZ
(Post 4684036)
I have a Challenger Hellcat... Greatest selling point... it'll smoke the tires on the interstate at 70 MPH, but it can be docile enough to be used as a daily driver. You couldn't have this kind of versatility back in the Muscle Car heyday. Cars had a 90-day warranty; God help you if you blew up something at the track. So long as I do not mod the car, full warranty for 5 years/50,000 miles... and they encourage owners to beat on it at the track!
It's great to live in the future! |
Originally Posted by resurrected
(Post 4682335)
Manufacturers made more power in the 50's and 60' before emission control. Their solution to meet standards was to retard camshaft timing and decrease to static compression so low most engines in the 70's and early 80' were anchors
for example to Ford 460 was mid 300's in 1970 (D0VE) and dropped to 200 a couple years later But on the bright side we don’t die of asphyxiation when stuck in traffic. Lol. |
Yep. When I built the 440 six pack for my Super Bee, the carbs had mechanical choke and I wouldn’t drill the firewall to run the cable. That lead to the 10 min ritual of starting, keeping motor running while sitting in car. Purred like a kitten once warm but didn’t like being woken up 😉 |
BigSilverCat. I agree. 1.6-1.65 attainable on 93. Very reasonable.... pretty funny about some other claims...when we lowered rpm to 7000rpm reliability went up mainly due to stabizing valvetrain issues..Never really had a bottom end failure. |
Love those numbers.
Being a 2 stroke O/B guy I regularly hear that we need to turn a Hyabusa (etc) motor on end and we'd have something. My reply is always the same. Stop your Busa at a light, base of a hill, put a fat passenger on back, jamb it in 6th gear, let the clutch out then call me ;) Before they banned the 500cc 2 strokes (20 yrs ago) from motorcycle road racing they were making 200 HP's or 6.66 per cu in. But thats w/a multi speed gear box. 800 HP's from 509's, @ 7K pushing that big of boat..........for that long........, wow! Thats impressive. I cant even wrap my head around a valve train staying together at that limit. I read that the Pro Stock car guys run titanium valve springs (approx 1400 HPs, 500 cu in @ 12K), only material that lasts. I think I also read, $1500 per set and last a weekend. How heavy is your class and how long (75 miles??) is the average race?? I am a huge fan of the "Engine Masters Challenge" that one of the car mags has done for yrs. They set rules on cu in, compression, heads, octane, etc then let teams build their answer to those parameters then put it on a dyno. They average #'s based on RPM targets per the rules. The rules change each yr. I love seeing some of the ideas the teams come up with/try.
Originally Posted by BigSilverCat
(Post 4682200)
Our Super cat engines are 509 cuin and in theory make 800 HP (unless your NZ-1, AMH, WHM, performance, ect. there's probably make 2000 hp) So around 1.6 hp per cuin but that is on 93 octane fuel and ours lived a whole season of testing and running.
I do have a 2 stroke that makes close to 6 hp cuin n/a and a rotary that makes close to 7 hp cuin. And a diesel that makes 4 hp cuin but on lots of boost. |
Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic
(Post 4682492)
Interesting. And yeah, F-1 is in another world. Too bad they’re freagin hybrids now. Frankly, it is unreal - none of us could run our engines WFO for 100 straight hours, under the stress they are put under with no issues..... |
Eric, my son Dylan and I try to catch the F1 races every weekend when he's not at his mom's. He's a diehard Scuderia Ferrar fan... Vettel is his absolute favorite driver, period, though he's pretty interested in Leclerc. The cars are incredible! And personally, I love the sound.
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Hey Tom.. Hope you're doing well! That's cool your son is a fan (even though he roots for the enemy)!! Leclerc is a special talent and I genuinely like him.... Going to be a star of the Future. |
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...653cd7d9ed.jpg
The wife's car is 2009 Gen 4 viper, For the 2008 Dodge Viper, the engine's output was increased to 600 bhp (608 PS; 447 kW) @ 6100 rpm and 560 lb⋅ft (759 N⋅m) @ 5000 rpm of torque via a slight displacement increase to 8,382 cc (8.4 L; 511.5 cu in) and the use of variable valve timing, among the first utilized in a pushrod engine. The bore was now 4.055 in (103.0 mm), If you have ever been a Gen 4 or Gen 5, you can attest to the CRAZY amount of torque the engine puts down, the torque is just incredible, and it's N/A all the way baby! |
Watching Brazil qualifying now. I prefer engines over electric motors but I get it. Give me a 24,000 rpm V-10 any day 😎 I wish they would let us see them though. I miss the old crew too. Steve Matchet used to show some of mfg processes for some of the parts. Mind boggling! I want to see those engines! Even the header work is jaw dropping. I could spend hrs watching old YouTube videos. Cars on track, Sennas magical qualifying lap at Monaco , and engines on dynos. They have dynos that simulate tracks, corners and gear shifts. Incredible. The engine playing “God Save the Queen” is a favorite. Dean, I had a dock mate that had one. He owned several rockets including my favorite of a turbo Carrera. I asked his favorite and it was the Viper. Said they were all great cars but you had to be in the right gear for them to be fun. Said the Vioer had so much grunt it didn’t matter which gear you were in. |
Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic
(Post 4686541)
Watching Brazil qualifying now. I prefer engines over electric motors but I get it. Give me a 24,000 rpm V-10 any day 😎 I wish they would let us see them though. I miss the old crew too. Steve Matchet used to show some of mfg processes for some of the parts. Mind boggling! I want to see those engines! Even the header work is jaw dropping. I could spend hrs watching old YouTube videos. Cars on track, Sennas magical qualifying lap at Monaco , and engines on dynos. They have dynos that simulate tracks, corners and gear shifts. Incredible. The engine playing “God Save the Queen” is a favorite. Dean, I had a dock mate that had one. He owned several rockets including my favorite of a turbo Carrera. I asked his favorite and it was the Viper. Said they were all great cars but you had to be in the right gear for them to be fun. Said the Viper had so much grunt it didn’t matter which gear you were in. So true what your friend said.... Headed to Capt. Hirams for Memorial Day, miss not having yous guys there.... MD |
Love that place.
Been all over Fla by boat and that stretch of water (Fort Pierce to Melbourne) is tough to beat. There is a killer seafood restaurant on the water in the Grant area that we frequented both by car and boat. Bands on the deck on weekends. The new Squid Lips in Melbourne is also very nice, w/nice docks. Starting month #2 of rain and crap weather in Ohio. Ugh,
Originally Posted by Dean Ferry
(Post 4686553)
Hey G,
So true what your friend said.... Headed to Capt. Hirams for Memorial Day, miss not having yous guys there.... MD |
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