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-   -   BUP banned? (https://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/366768-bup-banned.html)

TYPHOON 06-08-2020 01:27 PM


Originally Posted by GLENAMY 242SS (Post 4742585)
Truth be known, BUP most likely helped the paid advertisers. He told the members what parts they needed to fix their problems. Member goes to BAM's Hardin, Diamond, etc. sights, orders parts fixes boat. Now if we get into how OSO really makes it's revenues I bet it is from banner advertisers, which rely on site visit counts and "click-throughs". The more the technical resources are limited the less the website traffic and the less the advertising funds.
BUP was without a doubt an asset to the forum and the "boat-load" of people he has helped throughout the years.
Thank you BUP for your help.

To your point I think many of us come on here and ask questions knowing we can get FREE advise. Many of us want to hear how to fix our problems even if they are not our own. I would say more than half the post are question based and that's why I like ready on this forum. Heck it might be good business for OSO to pay people like BUP to help us all.

ShootinRopes35z 06-08-2020 01:38 PM


Originally Posted by Griff (Post 4742537)
I did not ban BUP, and not sure which mod or admin did, but I support the decision.
He was given a long leash and kept pushing the envelop. We have had more complaints about him constantly violating the advertising policies than all other members/businesses combined. I have reached out to him several times and thanked him for his contributions and valuable information that he posts on OSO and asked him if he would purchase a Commercial Membership ($500) to help further promote his business. He refused to purchase a Commercial Membership, or for that matter, any type of membership. He has made thousands of dollars for his marine business by using OSO to sell his parts and services. It is not fair to the advertisers who actually support OSO to allow him to continue to do so.

I can list quite a few commercial memberships who I have called for advice or left VM's to never hear from them. John was active on this site and provided SOUND KNOWLEDGE! That speaks for something and if squeezing a small independent mechanic for $500 in membership is breaking OSO - well then sell more screen available in my display to pop-ups. (I think you have about 30% left) Your missing the point - advise in this hobby has a value and a key contributor like BUP should have been recognized and afforded some membership. This versus the dude who pays you a membership - treats customers like crap and doesn't contribute to the site knowledge base.


Diamond Dave 06-08-2020 02:52 PM

Banned? This is almost laughable. I think whomever specifically made that decision should offer some kind of explanation at the very least to him so he has a chance to make it right or offer some explanation.

Did he scam someone? Did he sell junk or incorrect parts to someone? Did he take thousands of dollars out of someoneís pockets and outright rip them off? Did he call someone bad names? Plenty of people still in here that have done all of the above since Iíve been here... maybe Iím wrong.

Can anyone honestly do a search on Google regarding engine issues and NOT come up pointing to a thread ON THIS SITE that has him offering free solutions or advice?

Before I knew of him I did that exact same thing and it was a LOT of help to me. I can only imagine how many others that do not come here regularly Google a problem and are directed to THIS site, read his comments and are better off for it. Iím not saying that there arenít a lot of others on here that do the same, but the main reason people STILL visit this site is for the content. Itís not like Facebook where people pull random $&@% out of their rear ends for answers. This site has some people that actually know what they are talking about and can help others for the greater good of the sport keeping them and their families on the water. Banning such people (and there are a lot that donít come here anymore Iíve noticed) is just a nail in the coffin for this site. Very sad.

Iím not buying the comment about him wanting credit card info for advice. If thatís the case, why would he spend so much of his time on here and FB for that matter giving FREE advice to many? (BTW he does not even have a way to charge cards so thereís that...). I can also echo what was stated above about payments. The last few times I have had to bug him for a week or more about sending me a bill so I could pay him so not so much driven by money in my opinion.

Iím pretty sure the bulk of his income has nothing to do with anything that the ďpaidĒ advertisers even sell. I can only see four paid advertisers in the ďvendor directoryĒ BTW so not sure what thatís all about. Maybe someone in charge needs to add a spot on the site that members can see a list of the ďpaidĒ vendors because I sure as heck could not find one anywhere other than the four I mentioned. IF in fact there are more than four, they are being ripped off because Joe Shmoes like myself cannot see anywhere on the site where I should go to buy my parts or services from and be treated well for being a member.

If itís about being a paid or non-paid member, vendor or non vendor banning resources and people like BUP makes a strong case for not subscribing or for people to become vendors either way. Everyone that doesnít know him just lost a INCREDIBLE resource to help keep them in the sport.



hogie roll 06-08-2020 03:37 PM

Ban Eddie, Mike Tkach and Haxby too, I want Phil to be our exclusive source of Tech advice :D

TYPHOON 06-08-2020 03:49 PM

Can someone please just start a go fund me page so we can all chip in to buy him a 2 year membership?

ShootinRopes35z 06-08-2020 04:40 PM

Somebody should do this.....I lack the ability to understand GOFUNDME stuff. Just message me the link when its up and running.

Independent Marine Mechanic running a huge business by himself always available to help people and then comes here and provides FREE advice....If that isnt the definition of an ASSET to a forum like OSO then I do not know what it is.

PS: Just spoke with John and although disappointed he cannot share his wealth of knowledge with others on this forum any longer. He is more than willing to still dispense advice.

Baja Rooster 06-08-2020 05:07 PM

Many of my motorcycle forums went the same way where in the beginning so much talent contributed to the community for free until it was such a hassle they eventually left and a poo flinging peanut gallery was all that was left contributing to any traffic at all to the site.

This isnít a comment about OSOís decision to ban the BUP as itís someone elseís baby with its unknown liabilities and challenges so itís none of my business how they run it, but just observing the trend of internet message boards in general.

Short of ten years ago every single question I queried on the internetz led me here and I truly enjoyed hours of reading about in-depth engine building that you just couldnít find anywhere else, but now the knowledge base has pretty much ghosted this site.

OSO is still my favorite place in the cyber world, but Iíve gone from checking every hour to once or twice a month, and I know that Iím not alone in my habits. Iíd think that the drop in site traffic would concern advertisers more than some dude helping members. He could get a bit cranky at times, but how many people care enough to always spell out period instead of just leaving a dot?

Craney 06-08-2020 06:27 PM

Can the ban just be a temporary time out for like a week or two.This is not a life sentence.

Sydwayz 06-08-2020 07:04 PM

Unfortunately, a member had a hard-on for BUPs posts and hit the "notify admin" button all the time on his threads. Internet Brands probably just got tired of the noise. I was ignoring the messages. His info is invaluable to the forum.

Smoke eater 06-08-2020 07:14 PM


Originally Posted by Sydwayz (Post 4742645)
Unfortunately, a member had a hard-on for BUPs posts and hit the "notify admin" button all the time on his threads. Internet Brands probably just got tired of the noise. I was ignoring the messages. His info is invaluable to the forum.

so the question is then what needs to be done to resolve the ban? How long is this ban. I know you canít give out and maybe you donít know who it was that was doing it. But valued information doesnít come easy. Weíre a community how can we as a boating community have his back and make it work? Heís helped a lot of people and I would like him to be able to continue to help others. I donít have Facebook so I canít turn to that avenue of help and it sounds like itís not very helpful all the times. I always turn to oso when Iím in need of help. And itís because of people like him that we get the answers and we get to learn something in the process. I know the website isint free to host or maintain but I feel like something should or can be done to make all of this right.

apex svt 06-08-2020 07:14 PM

Pretty bogus

GLENAMY 242SS 06-08-2020 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by Smoke eater (Post 4742646)
so the question is then what needs to be done to resolve the ban? How long is this ban. I know you canít give out and maybe you donít know who it was that was doing it. But valued information doesnít come easy. Weíre a community how can we as a boating community have his back and make it work? Heís helped a lot of people and I would like him to be able to continue to help others.

Make BUP a moderator, problem solved.

compedgemarine 06-08-2020 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by Sydwayz (Post 4742645)
Unfortunately, a member had a hard-on for BUPs posts and hit the "notify admin" button all the time on his threads. Internet Brands probably just got tired of the noise. I was ignoring the messages. His info is invaluable to the forum.

seems you should have banned the annoying member as that would have gotten rid of the noise without the loss of free information for problem solving.

Jupiter Sunsation 06-08-2020 07:19 PM


Originally Posted by Sydwayz (Post 4742645)
Unfortunately, a member had a hard-on for BUPs posts and hit the "notify admin" button all the time on his threads. Internet Brands probably just got tired of the noise. I was ignoring the messages. His info is invaluable to the forum.

That is sh1tty............I'm not a mechanic but always thought his posts were great.

PartyBarge22 06-08-2020 07:21 PM


Originally Posted by Mentalpause (Post 4742517)
Agree. Not for or against. He added value, but he also did a ton of advertising for his own benefit. I have no idea if he was talked to by OSO or not, but my guess is he was. Why wouldn't he be willing to pay for some of that benefit. I was always surprised he wasn't an advertiser or at least a paying member. Do we think OSO gets to run this site for free?


very well said


ph1971 06-08-2020 07:26 PM


Originally Posted by GLENAMY 242SS (Post 4742648)
Make BUP a moderator, problem solved.

And you could be a moderbator Gary:ban?:

Smoke eater 06-08-2020 07:32 PM

Sorry Iím all about brotherhood and thinking that the whole world works like that where we all have each otherís back. Seems like 99% of people here and boaters Ivey have had the same views. Just wish we could do something to make this right and fix it.

Keith Atlanta 06-08-2020 08:16 PM

Justice for BUP - Somebody unload some bricks and ya'll start tearing down monuments of Reggie, lets burn this motherfkkr down.

...Or, lets get him a gold membership and call it a day.

Padraig 06-08-2020 08:29 PM

Anyone suppose the member who got him banned will come on this thread and man up?

Padraig

open87 06-08-2020 08:36 PM


Originally Posted by Padraig (Post 4742673)
Anyone suppose the member who got him banned will come on this thread and man up?

Padraig


Nope........ snitches are b itches..

cig28 06-08-2020 09:11 PM

Johns a great guy, he took my phone call on Saturday Memorial Day weekend and it was the first time we ever talked. I had questions about a boat I was buying with 500 efi’s and he was nice enough to talk for at least 30 minutes about the MEFI 3 and multec fuel injectors that are used on the 500’s.

SKammeraad 06-08-2020 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by compedgemarine (Post 4742649)
seems you should have banned the annoying member as that would have gotten rid of the noise without the loss of free information for problem solving.


this^^^^^

seems like if the reports were from the same person all the time they were obviously using it becuase they didnt like him.

ICDEDPPL 06-08-2020 10:09 PM

I hate snitches , whoever reported BUPs post should be banned.
If he were any kind of a man he`d come on here and tell us why he`s a little snitch ***** and what their issue was.. but I doubt it, not enough balls.

1MOSES1 06-08-2020 10:15 PM

Hahaha banned...

what a joke. OSO is ok with coastal marine exports peddling junk parts with no serial numbers because they are paid advertisers...but someone who genuinely helped the community and offered help in his time off is banned.

its laughable...there are plenty of non paying members who advertise parts and service.

if bup thought paying for a membership would boost sales and revenue Iím sure he would have coughed up the cash already.

Griff 06-09-2020 01:54 AM


Originally Posted by 1MOSES1 (Post 4742690)
Hahaha banned...

what a joke. OSO is ok with coastal marine exports peddling junk parts with no serial numbers because they are paid advertisers...but someone who genuinely helped the community and offered help in his time off is banned.

its laughable...there are plenty of non paying members who advertise parts and service.

if bup thought paying for a membership would boost sales and revenue Iím sure he would have coughed up the cash already.

Coastal Marine Export was NEVER a paid advertiser and NEVER had a Commercial Membership. Any for sale posts in the forums by CME were always quickly deleted due to advertising violations. CME was able to use paid classifieds just as BUP could still choose to utilize.

Who are the non paying members who run full fledged marine businesses and advertise on OSO??


Griff 06-09-2020 01:58 AM

I saw this coming a long time ago with BUP and tried to help him avoid it getting to this point. I told him to keep his sales stuff off the forums and use PM's or purchase a Commercial Membership. He gave "free advice" on OSO and made thousands of dollars off of that free advice with ECM repair, injector service, injector sales and numerous other parts sales. All he had to do was purchase a Commercial Membership for $500. Everybody could have then seen his business contact info and his website and he would have been able to receive more PM's instead of just the 10 that he constantly had to clear. He would have gotten some free advertising in the Classifieds as well. He would have made that $500 back quickly and easily. He was given more slack than ANY other person in the history of OSO, but he continued to push the envelop by constantly violating the advertising rules. He basically thought that he was above having to purchase a Commercial Membership or become an advertiser because his "free advice" was so valuable.

Twin O/B Sonic 06-09-2020 07:46 AM

Itís a tuff line to walk, as moderator, forum owner etc.

I have no dog in this fight and had no dealings w/Bupp but have seen this over and over on here and other sites.

Have seen lots of free info threads deleted/monitored.

How do you control the site when you have knowledgeable members assisting others for free, in the same business you have other paid advertisers in?

What does a member do when heís stuck in a project and just needs a question answered?
Call a vendor and ask for free advice?
Call a vendor and give a Visa # for advice?

The comment of Bupp telling a member he wouldnít give advice over the phone w/o a Visa # cracked me up.
Know how many times my wife had told me that?
Dozens.

I know smaller, two Stroke, go fast O/Bs very well and have been knee deep in them since the Ď60ís.
Not near the market as the Hi Perf I/O biz but there was/is people trying to make a living at it.

I got calls, texts, e-mails asking for help all the time.
I helped 99% of them.

Then it changed.
People thought I owed it to them because they were a board member.
Paying or non didnít matter.

Often the questions were very technical which, being an old guy, Iíd request they call me so I didnít have to spend 30 mins typing w/one finger.
90%+ of the time, that answer led to another question.

The latest is for them to text me their # and ask me to call them.
Huh?

This new population would then text or pm me a ďthxĒ for my help.
Im old school and am offended by that.

Now think of these guys expecting same from a vendor whoís out in his shop busting his ass trying to make a living.

It is common to see those knowledgeable members transition into that business and normally two things happen.
A. They have to work so hard to support their biz that their time on the boards evaporates.
B. Their time to lend free advice also disappears.

It cracks me up see a member *****ing, on here, about a vendor that didnít return his e-mail, text, pm to their satisfaction.
So they bash a vendor on a public forum for being too busy?

99% of the time these ďirate consumersĒ......, never even p/u the phone to call the vendor!
WTF?

Do we even support those vendors that support our sport/hobby?
I did a thread on that subject (on another boat site) yrs ago.

Normally they get their free advice then buy their parts from the cheapest results to a google search.
Remember the Chinese injector threads 😂

My experience has been that those vendors I have supported will bend over backwards to take my calls and answer my dumb ass questions.
Even then I am mindful of how much theyíve made from me (how long ago?) Vs how much free info they Owe meĒ.

I also know I have to ask their help in private since if I do it it on a forum, and they reply to me, the rest will expect same treatment.
Even w/o spending a dime w/said vendor.

Sorry, had to vent.

Carry on.


Nothing personel 353 06-09-2020 08:01 AM

If you have a business that deals with high performance boats and you are good at it no forum needed! But if it did generate business from forum pay the $500 ?? Looks like you had a lot of cheerleaders on here? My 02 guy was nasty and tight as a frogs ass under water and broke the rules and refused to stop? ! I think Fester ratted him out?? Guess he won't be pro OSO anymore!:hitfan:

ShootinRopes35z 06-09-2020 08:22 AM


Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic (Post 4742725)
It’s a tuff line to walk, as moderator, forum owner etc.

I have no dog in this fight and had no dealings w/Bupp but have seen this over and over on here and other sites.

Have seen lots of free info threads deleted/monitored.

How do you control the site when you have knowledgeable members assisting others for free, in the same business you have other paid advertisers in?

What does a member do when he’s stuck in a project and just needs a question answered?
Call a vendor and ask for free advice?
Call a vendor and give a Visa # for advice?

The comment of Bupp telling a member he wouldn’t give advice over the phone w/o a Visa # cracked me up.
Know how many times my wife had told me that?
Dozens.

I know smaller, two Stroke, go fast O/Bs very well and have been knee deep in them since the ‘60’s.
Not near the market as the Hi Perf I/O biz but there was/is people trying to make a living at it.

I got calls, texts, e-mails asking for help all the time.
I helped 99% of them.

Then it changed.
People thought I owed it to them because they were a board member.
Paying or non didn’t matter.

Often the questions were very technical which, being an old guy, I’d request they call me so I didn’t have to spend 30 mins typing w/one finger.
90%+ of the time, that answer led to another question.

The latest is for them to text me their # and ask me to call them.
Huh?

This new population would then text or pm me a “thx” for my help.
Im old school and am offended by that.

Now think of these guys expecting same from a vendor who’s out in his shop busting his ass trying to make a living.

It is common to see those knowledgeable members transition into that business and normally two things happen.
A. They have to work so hard to support their biz that their time on the boards evaporates.
B. Their time to lend free advice also disappears.

It cracks me up see a member *****ing, on here, about a vendor that didn’t return his e-mail, text, pm to their satisfaction.
So they bash a vendor on a public forum for being too busy?

99% of the time these “irate consumers”......, never even p/u the phone to call the vendor!
WTF?

Do we even support those vendors that support our sport/hobby?
I did a thread on that subject (on another boat site) yrs ago.

Normally they get their free advice then buy their parts from the cheapest results to a google search.
Remember the Chinese injector threads 😂

My experience has been that those vendors I have supported will bend over backwards to take my calls and answer my dumb ass questions.
Even then I am mindful of how much they’ve made from me (how long ago?) Vs how much free info they Owe me”.

I also know I have to ask their help in private since if I do it it on a forum, and they reply to me, the rest will expect same treatment.
Even w/o spending a dime w/said vendor.

Sorry, had to vent.

Carry on.

I am going to assume your comment is directed at ME for getting upset because I called vendors who would not call back....So let me clarify just HOW SIMPLE my calls were and what the potential upside was for the vendor when I left a VM.

Vendor #1 - "Hello, I saw that you have a pair of low hour 525's listed for sale. I am looking to upgrade power and would like to know if you have a scan shot of hours/use and if you could handle swapping our my existing power if I brought the boat your way. Please give me a call back I am a cash buyer this week and can drop the boat anytime into the fall/winter. If you are backed up I will buy the power and just need it loaded into a freight carrier."

Vendor #2 - "Hello, I am looking for a B1x Upper drive housing. I saw that you had those previously listed in bulk. Was wondering if you still had any as I would like to purchase 2. Give me a call when you have time."

It goes on and on....

I am not calling and leaving messages like "Hey my boat is sputtering and the engine alarm is going off can you help me fix it?" Its common courtesy and being in the trades myself I can respect that time is money and a mechanic should not be on the phone helping people realize they need to actually drag the boat into a shop. When they are talking on a phone while working on another customers boat - somebody (paying customer) is getting shorted. However, when I call you and come right out with - "I am a buyer, I respect your time, call me later as I want to buy something" - Who wouldn't follow up on that as a business owner? Leads don't come any hotter than that.

Now, as far as BUP (John) he is a one man shop. There is no calling him at a good time and although we hear statements like "He has made thousands of dollars with ECM and fuel system service and he didn't buy a $500 membership" it makes me really consider what this hobby is all about on this particular site. We here things like great hobby....amazing people....incredible forums of knowledge...and yet its boiled down to making money. OSO used to be the THE SOURCE of information for all things performance boating. It clearly has changed its mission and has become more of a commercial advertising machine driven to PAY TO PLAY for the highest paying advertiser. Wow this seems awfully familiar to those poker runs splashed all over the site - "Come one..come all - but make sure you have at least $2k for fees set aside for our two day event and a half milllion dollar boat or we have to park you over there on the commoners dock"

mike tkach 06-09-2020 08:49 AM


Originally Posted by hogie roll (Post 4742618)
Ban Eddie, Mike Tkach and Haxby too, I want Phil to be our exclusive source of Tech advice :D

i got a time out for calling out a member who sells all kind of used up junk on oso,he complained to a mod and i got a time out.that was the end of me being a paid member and i don,t give much advice anymore after that.this site is not what it used to be,they seem to cater to the winers.as far as bup getting banned,thats a hugh loss for the oso members imo.let me say it was not griff who gave me the time out.imo he is not going to ban anyone because someone got but hurt.

Knot 4 Me 06-09-2020 08:50 AM

I’m chuckling at the suggestion we need to gofundme for a membership for a business owner who was also building a new 29 Lavey with a 900 HP custom mill that was going to make the rounds nationwide once completed. C’mon, man!! :picard1:

open87 06-09-2020 09:02 AM

So much for getting good reliable information at 12 o clock at night , I don't know of any Mercury tech answering questions or answering the phone after 4 pm.

Free BUP.

Twin O/B Sonic 06-09-2020 09:13 AM

Wrong

No clue who you are dude.

Just making observations from what Iíve seen over the last decades.

FYI, some of the best shops have the worst response time and customer Svc.

My prop guy is the **** but takes days to return phone calls.


Originally Posted by ShootinRopes35z (Post 4742730)
I am going to assume your comment is directed at ME for getting upset because I called vendors who would not call back....So let me clarify just HOW SIMPLE my calls were and what the potential upside was for the vendor when I left a VM.

Vendor #1 - "Hello, I saw that you have a pair of low hour 525's listed for sale. I am looking to upgrade power and would like to know if you have a scan shot of hours/use and if you could handle swapping our my existing power if I brought the boat your way. Please give me a call back I am a cash buyer this week and can drop the boat anytime into the fall/winter. If you are backed up I will buy the power and just need it loaded into a freight carrier."

Vendor #2 - "Hello, I am looking for a B1x Upper drive housing. I saw that you had those previously listed in bulk. Was wondering if you still had any as I would like to purchase 2. Give me a call when you have time."

It goes on and on....

I am not calling and leaving messages like "Hey my boat is sputtering and the engine alarm is going off can you help me fix it?" Its common courtesy and being in the trades myself I can respect that time is money and a mechanic should not be on the phone helping people realize they need to actually drag the boat into a shop. When they are talking on a phone while working on another customers boat - somebody (paying customer) is getting shorted. However, when I call you and come right out with - "I am a buyer, I respect your time, call me later as I want to buy something" - Who wouldn't follow up on that as a business owner? Leads don't come any hotter than that.

Now, as far as BUP (John) he is a one man shop. There is no calling him at a good time and although we hear statements like "He has made thousands of dollars with ECM and fuel system service and he didn't buy a $500 membership" it makes me really consider what this hobby is all about on this particular site. We here things like great hobby....amazing people....incredible forums of knowledge...and yet its boiled down to making money. OSO used to be the THE SOURCE of information for all things performance boating. It clearly has changed its mission and has become more of a commercial advertising machine driven to PAY TO PLAY for the highest paying advertiser. Wow this seems awfully familiar to those poker runs splashed all over the site - "Come one..come all - but make sure you have at least $2k for fees set aside for our two day event and a half milllion dollar boat or we have to park you over there on the commoners dock"


Keith Atlanta 06-09-2020 09:18 AM

Griff, will you let BUP roll with a Gold membership?

ShootinRopes35z 06-09-2020 09:43 AM


Originally Posted by Knot 4 Me (Post 4742742)
Iím chuckling at the suggestion we need to gofundme for a membership for a business owner who was also building a new 29 Lavey with a 900 HP custom mill that was going to make the rounds nationwide once completed. Címon, man!! :picard1:

I consider it payment towards all of the incredible information he supplied over the years.

dunnitagain 06-09-2020 09:44 AM

Cant find them much better the BUP ( John ) , I own a shop , purchased from him several times. Gives FREE Advice and answers his phone on Sunday at 3.00PM while I am out test running a problem child boat .
Knowing John though .... I dont think he will be back.

Mentalpause 06-09-2020 10:20 AM


Originally Posted by ShootinRopes35z (Post 4742751)
I consider it payment towards all of the incredible information he supplied over the years.

At the expense of getting backlash, and this is not directed at you, or anyone personally.....what about considering OSO getting paid for creating and maintaining the platform that allows everyone to ask questions and get incredible information in return. I'm not here to defend them, but they seem to be getting overly beat up on this one.

hogie roll 06-09-2020 10:23 AM

I also canít wait until this site is exclusively announcements about new $500k-1mm boats that nobody reads or cares about.

ICDEDPPL 06-09-2020 10:28 AM

$500? that`s it? I spend that on Facebook ads in a week.
Seems dumb not to buy that membership.Sometimes you can lead a horse to water but can`t make him drink.

ph1971 06-09-2020 10:42 AM

Maybe he understands the value of the content he is donating to the site. There are certain members that are simply part of the fabric of this site and have provided invaluable content and assistance. The outcry would be the same if they banned glass Dave. The whole thing rings hollow to me when the admin. has a guy basically running a free help line and they want to charge him. Raise your hand if the reason you originally came here was to get help fixing your junk yourself.


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